Stannis & Brienne (Book Spoilers)

[aFeastForDragons]

The show made it look like he was doing it because Mel told him to. The majority of watchers aren't going to use their brains to really think why he did it. All they saw was a villain burning his child for personal glory.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I know that. It's sort of the sad thing. Stannis is the third best non-pov in game of thrones only better and I realize this purely opinion- Littlefinger and Margery Tyrell. Nobody truly knows how much Marg has done or how much plotting she was involved with in the books unlike the show where she is a bystander for the most part.

[TwiceBorn]

If someone but hinted at an idea of hurting my daughter to save the world I'd go Ramsey Bolton on his ass. No, worse! I'd make him eat his damn sausage. In this particular case I'd burn the witch (like Danny did) and see what happens. Not that she is the only Red Priest in Westeros or whole damn universe.

Your child IS your whole world.

There are no doubts here.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I disagree with that sentiment. Tribalism is not something that should be worshipped nor should individualism. It has it's place like most idea's but a child not dying then dying later with the rest of the species against a threat you could have stopped them with their death to begin with is insaninity. Simple as that. Yo don't make more people suffer. Killing less in order to save more is always a difficult decision and should never be easy. However, sometimes it has to be done. Now onto Stannis and his choice.

Do we know that Shireen's death was pointless? Yes, we do. However from a story telling aspect stannis didn't do wrong. He know's magic works and he knows that ti has helped him before. He also thinks he is the greatest hero in history and he HAS to win to protect humanity. Don't use your emotitions- think inside of the story and why the character did it. I don't like what Stannis did. It was foolish and impractical to have him burn her since he would have to get remarried to have another child but I understand why he did it even if I don't agree. SHould have Stannis burnt himself instead is the real question.

From a book reader point of view- thankfully it will be mel and slyse who will do it. Book stannis is only half stupid. I still have no idea why he decided to march to winterfell but I imagine it was to pick up the hill tribes.

[SerDesmondHume]

The show made it look like he was doing it because Mel told him to. The majority of watchers aren't going to use their brains to really think why he did it. All they saw was a villain burning his child for personal glory.

That's pretty much all he's ever been on the show.

Stannis: I'm gonna burn you alive Davos

Mel: Don't do it

Stannis: Okay

-

Stannis: Give another son

Mel: No

Stannis: Okay

Plus they never showed any of his success militarilly. Blackwater he lost in the books too so that's fine. But he never mentions defeating the Greyjoys at sea, never stops any ironborn in the north, never makes any alliances, and his one victory on the show was him slaughtering wildlings after getting infinite mercenaries. Hodor could win that battle.

[Hard Home]

Didn't David Nutter say in an interview that Stannis is dead? I enjoyed Stannis as a character, but I don't think there is any value in keeping him alive anymore.

[calo760]

If someone but hinted at an idea of hurting my daughter to save the world I'd go Ramsey Bolton on his ass. No, worse! I'd make him eat his damn sausage. In this particular case I'd burn the witch (like Danny did) and see what happens. Not that she is the only Red Priest in Westeros or whole damn universe.

Your child IS your whole world.

There are no doubts here.

True that. But your child isn't everyone elses world, which is what Stannis believed and he made everyone elses child a priority over his own child, making Shireens sacrifice a selfless one. Stannis wouldn't have had her burned if he didn't believe it was for the greater good. He thinks logically enough, and anyone who knows basic math can see that 1,000,000 - 1 is greater than 1,000,000 - 1,000,000.

[Joe Lyon Layden]

Stannis is a tragic character. His stubbornness and pettiness about "rightful kings" and faith in a seductress brought him to awesome, tragic ruin. It's a character arc that is OVER and as gut wrenching as Hamlet. Hope they don't ruin it with keeping him alive. And I can't wait to read about Stannis's tragic fall in WoW, it will be even more tragic!

Why can Ramsey stick around after doing evil while Stannis can't?

Because Stannis is an anti-hero, whereas Ramsey is one of the only true villains in the story.

Saruman can do whatever evil he likes, the more the better for the standing ovation when he gets his just deserts at the end; but Boromir screws up one time and you can bet the tragedy hammer is coming down.

[Pepi]

Do we know that Shireen's death was pointless? Yes, we do. However from a story telling aspect stannis didn't do wrong. He know's magic works and he knows that ti has helped him before. He also thinks he is the greatest hero in history and he HAS to win to protect humanity. Don't use your emotitions- think inside of the story and why the character did it. I don't like what Stannis did. It was foolish and impractical to have him burn her since he would have to get remarried to have another child but I understand why he did it even if I don't agree. SHould have Stannis burnt himself instead is the real question.

I agree with this. I would also like to add that he disregarded Mel at Blackwater and subsequently failed. At this point, his mindset was pretty much: "I didn't listen to her, I failed. I got another chance and this time around, I'm putting everything at risk. If I don't change where I went wrong the first time around, I'm forfeiting the battle."

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Your child IS your whole world.

There are no doubts here.

Obviously history of the world and everyday news proves otherwise.

It has it's place like most idea's but a child not dying then dying later with the rest of the species against a threat you could have stopped them with their death to begin with is insaninity. Simple as that. Yo don't make more people suffer. Killing less in order to save more is always a difficult decision and should never be easy. However, sometimes it has to be done.

Extinction is always a fair option.

And I can't wait to read about Stannis's tragic fall in WoW, it will be even more tragic!

Blasphemy and lie! Stannis would fail only in A Dream of Spring eaten by Viserion.

[Bronn Urgandy]

I'd rather the Human race died out fighting than started to slaughter innocents for their own preservation. But thats just me, and the attitude I have the liberty to take as a fit, able bodied young man. Not that I don't appreciate Stannis' thought process, I just think burning Shireen for a bit of sun is piss poor storytelling considering the man survived on rats and boot leather.

[IRON BANK]

Stannis is gone. king robert, the young wolf, joffrey, Grey joy, and Renly. all have something in common they are not pov's. They are not main characters, and they are all dead.

[Dolorous Gabe]

I'd rather the Human race died out fighting than started to slaughter innocents for their own preservation. But thats just me, and the attitude I have the liberty to take as a fit, able bodied young man. Not that I don't appreciate Stannis' thought process, I just think burning Shireen for a bit of sun is piss poor storytelling considering the man survived on rats and boot leather.

Agreed. If it happens in the books with Stannis' approval the stakes will be far higher, not motivated by personal glory and the odds will be astronomically stacked against him.

[Jon Fossoway]

I think Stannis is dead, too. They didnt show him being killed and in a bloody mess because DD wanted to get as many cliffhangers as possible to make up for a shitty season.

As for a possible reedeming arc... I guess I would like that being worked on, but seeing all the wrong done to Stannis, plot and dialogue wise, better let the man rest.

I dont know what will happen to Brienne-team (they will stumble into Theon for sure) but everything is better than having her the whole damn season looking at Winterfell through a window.

The north will rise in rebellion when Rickon shows up at the Last Hearth and the Greatjon, a survivor of the Tower of Joy, fights for the legitimate heir to Winterfell, not knowing Sansa is still alive. Maybe the Pink Letter goes to him? Well, at least different kind of Letter.

We will see even more changes in the next season, and no canon will survive. At least I hope they turn the show into a decent thriller.

[TwiceBorn]

Guys, c'mon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem#Psychology

The story, even fantasy one, has to be believable. The show made Stannis inhuman thus it sucks.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

Shireen was burned so that Stannis would win the battle and go on to become the son of fire and all that Mel had believed and hoped for. She was already seeing something similar in Jon when they met and proved she knew something deeper of him and his destiny and his blood when she uttered Ygritte's line to him. However now that Stannis has been defeated and she was wrong about him, the path is clear for her to turn to Jon again and raise him up as the new son of fire.

So Shireen's death does serve a purpose in guiding Mel to Jon and brining him back. If Jon doesn't return thru Mel then Shireen's death is pointless and gratuitous and while GRRM wants to accurately depict the horror and reality of the Middle ages burning a child alive utterly pointlessly seems beneath his integrity as a storyteller which he is first and foremost and not a historian.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

As for killing Stannis, Brienne mentioned this many times and once they were to both to be at Winterfell at the same time it really was inevitable, esp after the story of how Renly showed her the only male kindness in a world of callous bastards which created in her a loyalty to him that, no matter what kind of man or king he was, was always depicted as impenetrable and unbuyable and most importantly honourable, a very large word in this game of treacherous thrones.

Similarly it seems inevitable that Arya will kill Cersei and had her training progressed quicker she could have killed Trant in 7 and killed Cersei in 10, but it seems this will be saved for season 7, or end of 6.

[Le Cygne]

Brienne didn't have to be in Winterfell, though. They contrived to put her there, because they gutted her story.

And Jaime was kind to her. Her book story had a lot to do with him. She kept replacing thoughts of Renly with Jaime.

They changed the emphasis. And I think much was lost.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

In the show she had to be in WF to kill Stannis as she had been set up to do since Renly's death. But what was strange was that they didn't force her to choose between her two oaths and so reveal her true nature, what she and Jamie talked eloquently about, and have Stannis and the light come on for Sansa at the same time. I think she would still have chosen Renly as they have a deeper backstory, but this would have made her seem bad as we think she should save Sansa as we know of Ramsay, so it was probably done to spare her in viewers eyes.

[Jon Fossoway]

They changed the emphasis. And I think much was lost.

Agreed.

They were developing a nice relationship between Jaime and Brienne and suddenly Brienne brings back Renly out of the blue. I was surprised and my left eyebrow went up some degrees.