Jon's death- plot device to free him

[pigpiginsunspear]

This may have been covered before, so I apologize if you've seen this before... (at this point everything has)

The Night's Watch oath begins as follows:

"Night gather and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death"

Assuming Jon dies and is somehow comes back to life (I guess the "how" matters here), is he relieved of his vows? I guess it's nitpicking, but there in argument to be made either way. For example, was Beric relieved of all of his vows every time he died?

I think his death is a necessary plot device to free him of his vows and do whatever Martin has in store for him. This scenario assumes Jon does not survive his wounds, which I think is pretty reasonable. I would be shocked if he does, too unbelievable.

[vuk]

Yes it was covered - already have red that theory, but sounds likely at least.

[The Dames do Moan]

This may have been covered before, so I apologize if you've seen this before... (at this point everything has)

The Night's Watch oath begins as follows:

"Night gather and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death"

Assuming Jon dies and is somehow comes back to life (I guess the "how" matters here), is he relieved of his vows? I guess it's nitpicking, but there in argument to be made either way. For example, was Beric relieved of all of his vows every time he died?

I think his death is a necessary plot device to free him of his vows and do whatever Martin has in store for him. This scenario assumes Jon does not survive his wounds, which I think is pretty reasonable. I would be shocked if he does, too unbelievable.

Yeah, very well could get him out of his duties. The only problem I see, he knows of the growing WW problem North of the Wall. It's why he was bringing all the wildlings south of the wall and has been the overarching theme of his narrative so far. If he is indeed dead and brought back In this scenario I can't see him just giving up on the conflict at the wall and going south to play the game.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Can't help but think that's where it's going.

[The Dames do Moan]

Can't help but think that's where it's going.

Do you think he is going to leave the NW then and go south? Or that the NW won't even be around when he is brought back?

[firepoet]

It's probably where the story is going, but I think it's kind of a cheap loophole. The oath basically means you are in the NW until you no longer exist. If your heart stops beating, and then you are revived, that doesn't count. I feel like Jon is too honorable to use that loophole, unless he has a really good reason.

Maybe as Ghost he'll see something in the lands of always winter, and it'll give him reason to try and get out of his vows.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I don't really know, I don't have as many grand theories for the entire story as some people do, I look for foreshadowing and for little things like the vow ending at death for what I think are clever twists and really only theorize 1 or 2 steps ahead. So for now I think Jon is dead and warged into Ghost and will be revived somehow, including the burning/killing of ghost to release his spirit since Varamyr told us he would not be able to warg anymore.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say Jon realizes he is free from his vows and has to make a tough choice, but when he is woken the situation will definitely be different than what it is now. Remember also that a king can do more good than a lord commander.

[Caspoi]

I hope not, it seems like a really bad loophole, especially considering the fact that the likelyhood of him being dead is pretty low.

[EternET]

Hmmm, I guess anybody would rather choose to be an oathbreaker than a dead man. Those that don't choose that are expected to die imo. So I can't accept this as the "only reason".

[UnGregor]

I think that Jon Snow is "dead enough" to be relieved of his duties/responsibilities within the current Night's Watch. My theory goes something like this:

Jon is alive/brought back to life/whatever.

The NW has a new Lord Commander.

Jon takes refuge with the wildlings.

Jon becomes the/a leader of the wildlings.

The White Walkers and Others attack the Wall.

The Night's Watch is severely beaten by the attack.

Jon rallies the wildlings to go to the NW's aid.

Jon and wildlings save the day.

The remnants of the NW re-elect Jon as the LC.

Jon says no, but combines the NW into the wildlings.

Together they guard the wall (or what is left of the wall).

[Crippledtank]

I can't see Jon abandoning the wall until the threat is gone, with arya rickon and Sansa in play it'd only cause problems to include Jon into the mix. Although the right to WF may go by "first stark in is best dressed"

I think Jon will be realeased by his vows (robs will plus his "death") but Jon will stay at the wall. I think melisandre will ultimately decide where and how Jon comes back.

[The Dames do Moan]

I don't really know, I don't have as many grand theories for the entire story as some people do, I look for foreshadowing and for little things like the vow ending at death for what I think are clever twists and really only theorize 1 or 2 steps ahead. So for now I think Jon is dead and warged into Ghost and will be revived somehow, including the burning/killing of ghost to release his spirit since Varamyr told us he would not be able to warg anymore.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say Jon realizes he is free from his vows and has to make a tough choice, but when he is woken the situation will definitely be different than what it is now. Remember also that a king can do more good than a lord commander.

Yeah, I tend to agree for the most part. Simply based in Varamry's prologue and Mel saying she see's man, wolf, man he is def going into Ghost and coming back. Even if the NW is in shambles he could do more good rallying the north as a KitN figure, even if he is not specifically called KitN.

[hallam]

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

As soon as I saw that, I thought Jon is going to die and come back.

I don't think people want or the plot needs Jon and Mel to become a team. Jon's resurrection will be something about Jon and owe nothing to Mel.

Last time we had a big funeral pyre for a major character, a witch was tied to it and out popped three dragons. Mel goes on about Kings Blood. But witch blood is a lot more powerful.

With Stannis gone, Mel's plot arc is complete. So what do we do with witches?

When Stannis offered Jon legitimacy and Winterfell, Jon refused out of loyalty to the watch. Now the watch has repaid Jon's loyalty with a stab in the back. He is not just free from the literal vow, he is free from any moral obligation as well.

There is no longer any reason for the NW to exist. There are no wildings alive north of the wall and they are doing nothing against the WW. Jon is free to rebuild his own army with the wildings and march on winterfell.

[pigpiginsunspear]

Some of you point out that even if free of his oath, it doesn't make send for him to go South and play the game.

I wasn't really thinking along those lines. He could be free of his Oath and take back the North, with or without Stannis, specifically to tackle WW's- not for his personal glory.

On the other hand, he probably has to travel south at some point if he is going to become a dragon rider (I would assume).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I don't think it counts as a "cheap loophole" considering that it was his "brother" of the Watch who killed him, thus ending his obligation to the group.

Knowing Jon, he'd probably stay at the Wall anyway.

edited to add missing -ing.

[Fire Eater]

I can't see Jon abandoning the wall until the threat is gone, with arya rickon and Sansa in play it'd only cause problems to include Jon into the mix. Although the right to WF may go by "first stark in is best dressed"

I think Jon will be realeased by his vows (robs will plus his "death") but Jon will stay at the wall. I think melisandre will ultimately decide where and how Jon comes back.

Agreed. Jon knows the seriousness of the threat facing the Wall and the rest if the realm. He would likely resume his duties as LC.

[hallam]

I don't think it counts as a "cheap loophole" consider that it was his "brother" of the Watch who killed him, thus ending his obligation to the group.

Knowing Jon, he'd probably stay at the Wall anyway.

:agree:

That is why Jon can't just die any old death, he has to be betrayed by the watch. Jon will stay at the wall until he is no longer needed. But he isn't obliged to remain any longer than that. He can also do things like march on Winterfell and take it from the Boltons to use as a base against the WW. He can reform his own watch out of the wildings.

But what watch will remain for him to be bound to? How can the NW survive this? They are down to 30 men at Castle Black of which maybe ten are trained fighters. They are facing a wilding army of thousands who owe their lives to Jon.

I can't see Sam feeling himself under any obligation to the new watch commander. Like Beric he will continue to follow the last legitimate orders he received.

It looks like there will be something of a divergence between the books and the show here but not as much as folk think. One of the things that convinced me Stannis would burn Shireen in the books is that Mel sends word that she is sending something that will give him victory.

D&D have an audience that isn't very familiar with the rules of magic and tend to consider it a deus ex machina cop-out. So they make very clear that this is a magical world where blood sacrifice can have powerful effects before Jon is killed. GRRM does not have the same constraint.

The battle for Winterfell may or may not have happened. The pink letter may be a fake from Ser Alliser or it may be real. But even if it is fake, book Stannis is done: his men are starving resorting to cannibalism.

Either way, shortly after Jon dies, the watch is going to discover how Shireen died and once that happens it is going to be curtains for the red witch. And what do we do with witches..... ? :dunno: :dunno:

[bemused]

I think it would be a completely unnecessary loophole because of this :

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

Jon's death seems a trite way out to me , and i'm sure GRRM can think (has already thought) of something better.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Jon has a dream of himself standing alone atop the Wall in black ice armor fighting and flinging down foes (and some friends) This foreshadows something and don't think his story is finished yet, but I'm guessing that even though the NW considers his vows over, I doubt that Jon thinks they are.

[hallam]

I think it would be a completely unnecessary loophole because of this :

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

Jon's death seems a trite way out to me , and i'm sure GRRM can think (has already thought) of something better.

In the show Stannis offers him just that and Jon refuses. It is very clear book Jon would do exactly the same.

Jon's reasons for wanting to join the watch have never changed. He doesn't want to be released from his vows. He is a bastard in a society where there is no place for bastards. He won't even visit the brothel.

Stannis knows this and so to make the offer attractive he offers him legitimacy. That is a more important part of the offer than Winterfell. If Jon is a Stark, he can take Winterfell from Stannis or the Boltons.

That is why I don't see R+L=J as being plausible. Being a Targarean isn't going to change Jon's character at all. In fact from his point of view, being a Targarean rather than a Stark is a bit of a step down. Starks are the first men. So making him Lyanna's bastard rather than Ned's doesn't change anything interesting.

Jon's plot arc demands that if he comes back he come back as a legitimate contender for the Throne or not at all. So the only two solutions I see as credible are Robert and Lyanna or Rheagar and Elia. Both are equally viable character wise and plot wise. I prefer Robert because it means Jon is a Stark and the legitimate Baratheon claimant but the R+E version looks more likely at this point.

Either way, I think a very high probability that Benjen returns in 6.01 / Book 6 scene 1.