The Final Nail In The Coffin For The Nights Watch

[RSasoiaf]

Think we all know that if Ned stark was lord of Winterfell and they betrayed and killed Jon the nights watch would be having a rather rapid clearout.

Well.....Ned Stark did not have any power to place his brother as Lord Commander.

Neither he showed any will to try and see that Jon would not be bullied by people like Thorne.

If it was not for Tyrion, Jon could have had quite a rough time up there and never have made it.

So....I have my doubts.

I believe Ned Stark would let the wall decide their own fate. And if they choose to change their Lord Commander, as long as the new one followed the code, Ned would not ask too many questions.

[Nymeria's pup]

And I am hoping somebody PLEASE KILL Ollie SLOWLY. I don't want him turning into a zombie. I want that young man to die slowly kind of like how Sir Meryn Trent died at the hands of Arya.

I liked Ollie at first and could understand his confusion and pain after watching his family die in such a horrible way. Then they just shoved it at us all season. I was so over it. When that scene came on my husband happened to walk into the room while I said "You little bastard, I hope you die screaming." He was shocked I would say that about a child character, but I was so angry.

I was shocked in the book when this happened, but he was stabbed for an even worse reason on the show. How could anyone deny the wisdom of his actions after seeing/hearing what took place at the battle of Hardhome? The NW is done for it this is how they think.

[The One And Only]

As far as we know, he only killed desertors that got too far south into his hands.

He was not the one in charge for Castle Black or the Nights Watch.

He was not the law at the wall.

There was kind of a status quo of some knights and noble born always up there to keep some hierarchy and discipline.

If Ned Stark had any effect, they should all be dead a couple seasons ago.

Just the looming threat of justice can do wonders. And when it is gone, it doesn't just end overnight...

[Dragon of Ice and Fire]

I think before the show's over, the Wall will fall somehow and the White Walkers will get through, even if it doesn't last long. I hope the Night's Watch (except Edd) all get what they deserve, for being so ignorant and close-minded and killed off Jon, the one who's actually had the sense to do the right things for the good of the realm.

I think after all this, the Night's Watch will collapse, and maybe no one will be there to defend the wall when the White Walkers approach.

Will Bran be able to help in the war? And how? Will the Children come back one last time to try and fight the White Walkers?

[Hajk]

I think before the show's over, the Wall will fall somehow and the White Walkers will get through, even if it doesn't last long. I hope the Night's Watch (except Edd) all get what they deserve, for being so ignorant and close-minded and killed off Jon, the one who's actually had the sense to do the right things for the good of the realm.

I think after all this, the Night's Watch will collapse, and maybe no one will be there to defend the wall when the White Walkers approach.

Will Bran be able to help in the war? And how? Will the Children come back one last time to try and fight the White Walkers?

I think this may happen as early as the first or second episode of the next season. It will be the perfect hook to get people to continue to watch as this new problem changes the game completely (especially if they kill Jon of permanently, not much left in the NW story line then).

[Claire of House Thorpe]

If anything, what they did to Jon was the final straw. The Night's Watch is officially finished. The Wildlings are going to massacre the lot of them.

[Astromech]

^^This.

I'm of the opinion that the cliffhanger in the book was cheap, and doubly so in the show. The only reason to kill Jon Snow is so he can fulfill some AA prophecy and be released from his vow to the Night's Watch. The first isn't a major factor in the books, and the second could be accomplished by having the NIght's Watch disbanded when the wall falls. If Jon needs to be released in order to rule the seven kingdoms, it won't matter until the WW are defeated and the Night's Watch is a moot point anyway.

I see no reason to have killed Jon except to provide a cheap shock. Raising people from the dead is a poor narrative device that GRRM has relied on too much, unfortunately.

:agree: That narrative device is used too often in the fantasy genre imo and cheapens deaths.

[whikjik]

Sam is the guy who created all this mess - stole a baby from WW and killed one of theirs. Now he conveniently disappears right before all hell breaks loose. Jon made another mistake - he should've teamed up with WW against wildings.

[Bran's Legs]

Quick reality check:

Ser Alliser was the one who just opened the door to the whole gang.

Just let that sink......

Exactly. The season finale had so many holes.

[Eldric Storm]

The thing I hate most about the Nights Watch scene was Alliser Thorne stabbing Jon

I felt that was grossly out of line and out of character for him, I thought he was a man of honor,

:laugh: Nope Alliser is the worse of the lot.

[Le Noir Faineant]

The problem I have with WTF, errh, FTW, is that it takes place after the Hardhome incident.

The whole point about the Jon-Snow-story is that he's a consensus candidate in the books, and generally not considered to have earned his spurs, even after his minor heroics.

But after being *the* man on the wall, last season, after having gone man-a-mano with a white walker AND HAVING DEFEATED him while saving hundreds, you don't have to be a fan of the guy (terrible emo, IMO :D) to see that his strategies and instinct-based decissions are generally not he worst ones possible. Especially, when, in direct contrast, the people criticizing him show visible flaws of character, like raping, disobedience, mutiny, or cowardice.

So, why is Jon such a bad guy again, in the eyes of the NW? The show gives no reason, and, outside of Olly, all scenes when *his colleagues are mean to him* feel incredibly forced. I am glad this part of the show is over, because I hope D&D can stillsave his story arc with the conclusion.

[Ser Patroclo]

The problem I have with WTF, errh, FTW, is that it takes place after the Hardhome incident.

The whole point about the Jon-Snow-story is that he's a consensus candidate in the books, and generally not considered to have earned his spurs, even after his minor heroics.

But after being *the* man on the wall, last season, after having gone man-a-mano with a white walker AND HAVING DEFEATED him while saving hundreds, you don't have to be a fan of the guy (terrible emo, IMO :D) to see that his strategies and instinct-based decissions are generally not he worst ones possible. Especially, when, in direct contrast, the people criticizing him show visible flaws of character, like raping, disobedience, mutiny, or cowardice.

So, why is Jon such a bad guy again, in the eyes of the NW? The show gives no reason, and, outside of Olly, all scenes when *his colleagues are mean to him* feel incredibly forced. I am glad this part of the show is over, because I hope D&D can stillsave his story arc with the conclusion.

In a sense, it does make sense. The problem is that D&D did not explain it.

Even if the real threat are the white walkers and the night watch understands that now, the rest of Westeros doesn't.

Stannis, who was the only potential

ally of Jon Snow, has just been defeated.

Now the watch is in the difficult situation of Westeros not understanding why they let through the wall the enemy they were meant to keep out, and blaming them for that. By Killing the commander who took those decisions, the one who allied with the wrong king, they can restore the neutrality of the watch. Thus letting Jon snow pass through was a necessary step for Alliser Thorne to have a strong excuse for killing his hated commander.

They should have explained it better though.

[Sam20]

I am still trying to wrap my mind around this action that these guys took. Were they not told of the events in HardHome?? I am not understanding the reasoning for them to kill Jon Snow.

You have to understand that for them, Jon Snow is a fu***** treator. These Night Watchers probably don't hold Wildlings in much higher regard than the White Walkers. They are ennemies who have been killing Crows for centuries. Mutiny was almost inevitable and Sam was warned. I am surprised Jon didn't see it coming. He did a great deed but his men begged to differ. That cost him a life.

[Lady Isis]

If anything, what they did to Jon was the final straw. The Night's Watch is officially finished. The Wildlings are going to massacre the lot of them.

:agree:

BINGO!!!

[Le Noir Faineant]

In a sense, it does make sense. The problem is that D&D did not explain it.

Even if the real threat are the white walkers and the night watch understands that now, the rest of Westeros doesn't.

Stannis, who was the only potential

ally of Jon Snow, has just been defeated.

Now the watch is in the difficult situation of Westeros not understanding why they let through the wall the enemy they were meant to keep out, and blaming them for that. By Killing the commander who took those decisions, the one who allied with the wrong king, they can restore the neutrality of the watch. Thus letting Jon snow pass through was a necessary step for Alliser Thorne to have a strong excuse for killing his hated commander.

They should have explained it better though.

Thanks for responding, Sir Pat! (Big blendax smile on my side, because I usually use Achilles-related imagery for my forum avatar.)

I see your point, but I wonder how scenes like this will pass the test of time - my main problem with series like GoT, True Detective, The Mentalist, etc. is that the "shock twist" is a notoriously overused element of style. This makes for great TV *moments*, but diminishes the *rewatch value* considerably. For example, the notorious finale to GoT's season 3 - at that particular moment, sweet. If you rewatch the series as a whole, a tiny bit Deus Ex Machina. The same with FTW. - Understandable for those who've read the books, but only *explicable* to the TV audiences.

Now, I don't want to sound hypercritical - the TV show does a pretty decent job,and I am happy that D&D try to think of the book series in their process of decissionmaking; that said, I wonder whether GoT will ultimately turn out to be the next *Dexter* - great start, but mediocre conclusion.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Honestly, my expectations for the FTW scene were pretty low but I never expected this. They didn't even bother including the letter! And why introduce Wun Wun and then leave him out of FTW completely? Plus they ruined Alliser's character arc, his redemption was actually sort of cool in the show. Also, why the hell would Jon believe Olly so easily and leave Longclaw behind? He told Sam that everyone in CB hated him, he shouldn't go anywhere without Longclaw at his side (and Ghost, ffs where was he?). Really, there are so many ways this scene could've been 100 times better. Here's how I would've done it:

The build-up

- We see Jon talking to Tormund, showing us that the Wildlings are hanging around Castle Black. Jon is giving Wun Wun the task of guarding their food stores out of fear that people might try to break in now that the rations are so much smaller.

- Jon sends Sam to Oldtown.

- Ghost becomes mad and attacks a man of the NW. Jon locks him up after Allister complains (this would be another red herring for Allister).

- Possibly some shots of conflicts between the NW and Wildlings. Tension is rising, maybe some heated arguments or a fight. Jon would obviously be involved in trying to make peace with both parties but this will backfire (like a beated up NW man shouting in his face that he should've never let them in).

Battle for Winterfell

Instead of killing Stannis, leave the entire outcome of the battle as a cliffhanger. So basically end with a shot of lots of bodies and perhaps a Bolton flag burning. Also Stannis should've been fighting on ice with Bolton cavalry falling through the holes and drowning.

The letter

- Cuts back to CB. Jon receives a letter, stating that Stannis is dead etc. Jon decides to save Sansa and liberate the North to better prepare for the White Walker attack.

- Jon makes a speech to his men stating his intention to ride out. He emphasises the fact that they saw the true threat of the WW at Hardhome and that they have no other choice.

FTW

- Wun Wun is attacked by a random NW man trying to get food (it would be better if he was guarding Val, but she was killed in E8. Or he could've been guarding Melisandre but then she should've returned to the Wall sooner). Jon rushes out to see what the commotion is all about.

- Marsh draws a dagger on Jon. Jon disarms him, tries to grab Longclaw but he's unable to do so.

- Olly stabs Jon in the back. Jon falls to his knees.

- Alliser Thorne enters the scene, screaming that they should stop / are insane. He tries to protect Jon but ultimately fails (he could be disarmed, knocked out, etc.). In the background Wun Wun is surrounded by a few men of the NW who are trying to keep him at bay.

- Two other men of the NW stab Jon (2nd and 3rd stab).

- Jon falls on the ground. Wun Wun kills one of the mutineers by throwing him against a wall but is injured in the process.

Aftermath

In my opinion, showing us some sort of aftermath would be a much better cliffhanger and season ending than what we have now. If you want to draw in viewers / keep them attached to the show, you must give them some hope and this is clearly lacking from the show right now. Jon's death, if properly done, could be tragic but giving a big hint to his fate would make people a lot more curious about season 6 in my opinion. Now a lot of people are just assuming that he's dead and might give up on the show if they don't want to root for Tyrion/Dany (who are, arguably, the only characters left to root for).

- Give us a short glimpse of Jon's eyes becoming white. Then cut to black. Ghost growls. Credits roll.

That's all it would take. From a marketing perspective it would be a much better idea imho. Even the many book readers who dislike the show might give S6 a chance.

A huge improvement. Because Jon actually did NOTHING in the show to warrant the stabbings. He discovered you could kill a WW with Valyrian steel as well as dragon glass. He made Alliser First Ranger. He didn't send troops or help Stannis in any way. He didn't decide to go to Winterfell.

AND most importantly? He was on the wrong side of the wall and Alliser let him and the wildlings in!

If they'd spent ANY time --apart from the chat Jon had with Sam where he said he failed the watch and they all hated him, and the Olly stares of condemnation--any time at all showing him actually doing something to break their vows, then FTW would make sense. But they didn't. So it doesn't.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

The thing I hate most about the Nights Watch scene was Alliser Thorne stabbing Jon

I felt that was grossly out of line and out of character for him, I thought he was a man of honor,

Agreed.

This is one of my biggest gripes with the show is that they do not care as much about characterization. Having Alliser be involved has really irked me. Having Ghost rescue Sam while Jon was gone and Ghost would have been with him. There is no consistency in how the characters are portrayed and how they would act.

I do agree that this is the proverbial nail in the coffin for the NW both on the show and in the books. It's just a matter of time for it to all play out.

[Borodin]

The thing I hated most was that it made absolutely no sense at all. Jon Snow's assassination in the show is utter nonsense.

[Destiny's Warrior]

The Watch is done. I've a feeling the mutiny will cause excrement to hit the fan, if Jon has a solid support. I mean, he did get voted into power. Whilst everyone is at each other's throat the WW's will break through and seriously start causing it.

Of course we need to take into account the Wildlings now there is several thousand of them in Westeros. The NW simply would be overwhelmed if anything was to kick off.

Makes for an interesting next season/book. I have my criticisms of this season but I still enjoyed it, especially Hardhome.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

999th lord commander will likely be Alliser Thorne and his time at command will probably be shorter than Jon's.

Who will be the 1000th?