I gotta get this off my chest about Melisandre

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

This is something that bugs me as well. First of all, we have no idea how Beric was resurrected. We're led to believe that Thoros wasn't performing a resurrection ceremony; he was giving death rites. Beric's rise was a surprise to everyone, and we don't know that the R'hllor faith has anything to do with it. A couple of factors to bear in mind:

(1) Thoros was not a particularly faithful man when the first resurrection occurred.

(2) This is not the first time that alleged divine intervention saved a Dondarrion; the House's entire existence is allegedly the result of an act of divine intervention. Beric may be the variable that caused the resurrection (and Cats resurrection) rather than Thoros.

(3) The resurrection may be related to the Trident, where both Beric and Cat initially died.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Am I the only one who feels that the type of magic Mel and Thoros use is more dangerous than it gets credit for? As in, it can literally raise the dead and the people performing it have no idea. Talk about calling on forces you can't control! It's especially scary when considering that Thoros, the one who accidently raised the dead, is considered one of the weaker ones! Imagine what Mel can do! I'm almost surprised she hasn't cause an extinction level event after an especially spicy curry or something...

You're not alone in that. But...clearly they knew it was sort of kind of possible to raise the dead. Thoros makes a comment about how it never worked before. Which means he knew it was supposed to be possible according to the tenets of their faith. The reason it was accidental is because Thoros had never been able to pull it off before, nor had he ever seen anyone do so. He was just going through the motions and suddenly the ritual actually did what it was supposed to! The increase of magic in the world is the variable that makes it possible. Likely R'hllorists were able to do this last time there was magic in the world too.

The Others raise the dead too, but only as slaves, not as beings who have their own will and can speak. Not sure which one is worse on that score.

[Nozlym]

i believe her ressurecting skills r more on the line of MMD.

i think thats how it might play out with her killing ghost to transfer the soul back into the body.

but she doesnt know that jons soul is in ghost.

[LuisDantas]

Melisandre can't raise the dead without paying a huge price.

Nor can any of the other priess of R'hllor either. Westeros and most of all Essos would be very different places if they could.

Besides, although I don't necessarily trust her word on that, she has consistently presented her magic as reliant on sacrifices for the greatest effects. She admitted that she can't raise more shadows from Stannis without jeopardizing his health, for instance.

That does not suggest someone with true powers of ressurrection to me. Not at all.

As for Thoros, as was pointed out, he was surprised by Beric's raising from the dead. Whatever caused it has little to do with him personally and less with the specific ritual. It probably involves the waxing of magic in Westeros, and perhaps connects more closely to Daenerys' experience at the funeral pyre.

If you ask me, it may be the Children or even the One Eyed Crow lending Beric some lifeforce for reasons of their own.

[The Lash]

Melisandre is also quite the bullshitter too. She says repeatedly in the books the "image" of power is almsot as important as whatever "magical" deed she performs. She also says that although a lot of her deeds seem effortless, they are quite taxing. She is also not above relying on parlor tricks like magician's powder. Maybe she can't. I think it is also mentioned that she was the best or one of the best for seeing the future in the flames. Although her interpretations are far more often wrong than right.

[ache]

I think if she resurrects Jon it'll have something to do with her ruby. Just because of what happened when Rhaegar died. Much has been said of the rubies that flew from Rhaegar's breastplate as he died, I think Jon's stuff will tie in.

[bemused]

Melisandre is also quite the bullshitter too. She says repeatedly in the books the "image" of power is almsot as important as whatever "magical" deed she performs. She also says that although a lot of her deeds seem effortless, they are quite taxing. She is also not above relying on parlor tricks like magician's powder. Maybe she can't. I think it is also mentioned that she was the best or one of the best for seeing the future in the flames. Although her interpretations are far more often wrong than right.

R’hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting

flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and

she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets

half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

It seems she rationalizes her mistakes by thinking only a god could truly grasp them... may be true, but also makes a good excuse.

The price she paid appears to be her own humanity , and what should we make of "even in her order" ? Elsewhere we generally see priests, not priestesses.(We haven't seen the religion in much depth, but still that raises questions.)

Moqorro seems to be an excellent interpreter of the flames.. but he can't be of Mel's order since he's an agent/ adherent of Bennero. She can think "even in her order" as if her order had great renown for seeing visions... but it seems other larger branches of the religion might not agree.

[Mithras]

There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets

half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

Considering that in the same book, we meet Moqorro who is quite consistent and absolute about his visions, and does not mess up even once, I think Mel is fooling herself.

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

You're not alone in that. But...clearly they knew it was sort of kind of possible to raise the dead. Thoros makes a comment about how it never worked before. Which means he knew it was supposed to be possible according to the tenets of their faith. The reason it was accidental is because Thoros had never been able to pull it off before, nor had he ever seen anyone do so. He was just going through the motions and suddenly the ritual actually did what it was supposed to! The increase of magic in the world is the variable that makes it possible. Likely R'hllorists were able to do this last time there was magic in the world too.

Good point, I hadn't thought about it like that. So this is just another sign of magic growing stronger, and spells that didn't used to work are starting to do so again? What I like about this, is that it means that magic was coming back before the birth of the dragons, just as the Others did.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Am I the only one who feels that the type of magic Mel and Thoros use is more dangerous than it gets credit for? As in, it can literally raise the dead and the people performing it have no idea. Talk about calling on forces you can't control! It's especially scary when considering that Thoros, the one who accidently raised the dead, is considered one of the weaker ones! Imagine what Mel can do! I'm almost surprised she hasn't cause an extinction level event after an especially spicy curry or something...

lol!

But I do think the quality of the intent to bring someone back matters.

Thoros was Beric's most intensely loyal friend and was willing to give his life for him. Though he did not have to, his spirit was willing to.

Beric did give his life for Cat.

Melisandre. if she is willing to give her life for Jon andvwithbthe intention of saving the world, may be able to bring him back. Though she may or may not survive herself.

Hence we see what Mazi Mazzzdur said maybe a truth;

"Only death can pay for life."

But a ritual sacrifice of some random person does nothing.

Daenerys lost Drogo and her child. Mazi Mas Dour meant to get revenge on Drogo and Daenerys. Despite performing the rituals she meant to trick and punish them for the rape and enslavement of her village.

I can't remember the name of the red priest with Victarion, who "heals" his arm. Morcorro? His intent with Vic is to influence him, so whatever Vic does has the outcome of helping the red priest's aims.

So I conclude the magic works dependent on the intent and desire on the part of the person performing the magic and the quality of the person the magic is performed on.

I suspect that Stannis's desire for the IT was a mitigating factor in his success. And Melisandre, thinking the kingdom must unite in order to fight the Others, did not think this selfish desire would matter.

But maybe it did and does.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Good point, I hadn't thought about it like that. So this is just another sign of magic growing stronger, and spells that didn't used to work are starting to do so again? What I like about this, is that it means that magic was coming back before the birth of the dragons, just as the Others did.

I've always taken the appearance of direwolves south of the Wall as an early indication of magic returning as well. Direwolves themselves may not be magical, but it's a big deal that they're south of the Wall.

Additionally I think the reason why Dany was even able to hatch her dragons was that magic had returned. When her ancestors were trying to hatch them it didn't work because there was no magic in the world at the time.

[KnightTime]

lol!

But I do think the quality of the intent to bring someone back matters.

Thoros was Beric's most intensely loyal friend and was willing to give his life for him. Though he did not have to, his spirit was willing to.

Beric did give his life for Cat.

Melisandre. if she is willing to give her life for Jon andvwithbthe intention of saving the world, may be able to bring him back. Though she may or may not survive herself.

Hence we see what Mazi Mazzzdur said maybe a truth;

"Only death can pay for life."

But a ritual sacrifice of some random person does nothing.

Daenerys lost Drogo and her child. Mazi Mas Dour meant to get revenge on Drogo and Daenerys. Despite performing the rituals she meant to trick and punish them for the rape and enslavement of her village.

I can't remember the name of the red priest with Victarion, who "heals" his arm. Morcorro? His intent with Vic is to influence him, so whatever Vic does has the outcome of helping the red priest's aims.

So I conclude the magic works dependent on the intent and desire on the part of the person performing the magic and the quality of the person the magic is performed on.

I suspect that Stannis's desire for the IT was a mitigating factor in his success. And Melisandre, thinking the kingdom must unite in order to fight the Others. Did not take this selfish desire would matter.

But maybe it did and does.

Most likely Mel will give her life to the flames on Jon's funeral burning. This will resurrect Jon. Mel will be his Nissa nissa

[TheReal_Rebel]

Most likely Mel will give her life to the flames on Jon's funeral burning. This will resurrect Jon. Mel will be his Nissa nissa

We shall see :-)

[oursisthefury69]

lmao i mean the OP is like arguing with itself, which makes sense considering the whole thread is based off "some people think this without evidence, i think the opposite with an equal amount/lack of evidence"

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Considering that in the same book, we meet Moqorro who is quite consistent and absolute about his visions, and does not mess up even once, I think Mel is fooling herself.

I think people are vastly underestimating Melisandre. Tbh Moqorro is not even trying to interprent his visions. For example he said to Tyrion he saw him in the middle of young/old/bright/dark..etc. dragons, but he never said what it meant. Mel never said something vague like this, she tries to be clear, she gives advice.

In short Mel is doing the hard part and interprenting her visions whereas Moqorro just says what he sees.

[TheReal_Rebel]

I think people are vastly underestimating Melisandre. Tbh Moqorro is not even trying to interprent his visions. For example he said to Tyrion he saw him in the middle of young/old/bright/dark..etc. dragons, but he never said what it meant. Mel never said something vague like this, she tries to be clear, she gives advice.

In short Mel is doing the hard part and interprenting her visions whereas Moqorro just says what he sees.

...and getting it wrong.

Mel recognizes that red priests have to be careful about projecting their own desires into the flames but fails to recognize she is doing so herself in regard to Stannis and AA.

I would really like to see this Red R'hollar Hogwarts one day and hear what they teach.

It's worth noting that Thoros did not have to kill or burn anyone to resurrect Beric.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Maybe she can, maybe she can't. No conclusive evidence either way. She may have a chance with Jon in Winds one day.

If it comes to resurrection, and I am not a proponent of this argument because I believe he is alive, but more to the point I am not sure it matters what Mel does. If Jon is dead, the most sensible thing, providing another one of my ideas is trash (CB in rebellion), is that the NW burns Jon as they do with all corpses.

Since Jon is considered a bastard, he is essentially considered useless (politically) as a dragon egg. If they throw him on a pyre, that could create a second, though quite different, birth or awakening of the dragon. So as the eggs hatched, Jon is reborn a dragon. Not a literal dragon, but anyone with a brain perhaps has some knowledge of Targs and fire (not resistance per se, but something).

Having said that I don't believe it gets to this point, and I don't believe Mel will have anything to do with it. Wouldn't it be kind of interesting to have another power at work. It would sort of humble Mel a bit to realize that the Lord of Light is not the only power in the universe.

I think that the fact that the show had her physically turn up and interact with Thoros on this subject could be seen as quite telling. I know the show isn't an infallible source, but surely the fact that they made a point to ensure that the audience knows that Melisandre knows it can be done is important.

That is possible; or the show, because they have cut so many elements, are going to use the red priests as a means for Jon's resurrection to avoid confusion. Or just as they used one specific character as a RH "friend", they may do the same with Mel and the resurrection.

I get the sense that Mel is much more powerful that Thoros is. Maybe the reason that LSH and Beric are physically and emotionally screwed up is because Thoros is not nearly powerful enough for a true resurrection?

I agree. Especially since she claims that the wall has increased her powers.

[Spookykid]

was the burning of shireen and the slaughter of stanis and company a sacrifice to resurect AA?

[Kris370]

Is their a chance that it's the person who the magic is aimed at that plays a part in it's effectiveness.

When Mel sees Thorros perform magic on Berric in the show she seems amazed that he can, maybe a little bit irked that he's more capable than her and it looks like real magic as opposed to her illusions.

Could it be that R'hllor had a plan for Berric therefore helped him via Thorros, maybe it comes back to LSH, as I recall seeing someone today say that GRRM has said she has a "part to play" though I'll be honest I don't know anything about that so I could be reading too much into a random comment. In the same way I don't recall her doing a lot for Stannis that couldn't just be a coincidence, he's had ups and downs, she blames blackwater on her not being there but who knows and when things generally go well she preaches the Red Gods favour. Maybe her "magic" has never been working on him because he's not really AAR(

hence in the show last night, it looking like she utterly failed Stannis, the coincidence luck ran out, but possibly it opened her eyes so she returned to Castle Black to find the real deal

), whereas if she tries it on Jon it may actually work as R'hllor has use for him?

[Kris370]

Sorry, double post