Are you guys think that Stannis lose the battle of winterfell? (Spoiler)

[Stormland's Fury]

Was some time I read the books but where comes the notion from that the Northerners would right out antagonize Stannis? He didn't really do anything to piss them off, in fact he marches against the Boltons and wants a Stark in Winterfell. Do they still cling on the idea of becoming independent? Isn't that irrelevant at that point?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

But if Stannis loses the Battle on the Ice, how is he going to burn Shireen like D&D said he would? A defeat would mean certain death for him, even if he doesn't die in the battle itself.

Not that I think Stannis will be the one to burn Shireen but it's easily plausible. Stannis receives a humiliating defeat, snaps and sends a raven telling Mel to do what it takes to get him victory.

[Consigliere]

I don't think that Stannis will lose the Battle at WF. One possibility is that his forces prevail but Stannis is killed in the battle. I don't see that happening though as we still have that vision of Dany's in the HoTU concerning the lies that she must slay. So I don't see Stannis dying in the books, at least not until Dany arrives in Westeros. Sending out the Frey and Manderly forces has played exactly into Stannis's hands, not to mention the uncovering of the Karstark treachery. The show has not actually given us any clues as to how the battle is going to play out since the situation at WF in the show bears virtually no resemblance to the situation in the books.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Was some time I read the books but where comes the notion from that the Northerners would right out antagonize Stannis? He didn't really do anything to piss them off, in fact he marches against the Boltons and wants a Stark in Winterfell. Do they still cling on the idea of becoming independent? Isn't that irrelevant at that point?

He's burning weirwood trees and making living sacrifices to his god Rhollor. Of course this is going to antagonize them. He was part of the Wall that allowed Wildlings into the North

edit: and he is just about to execute Karstarks

There are plenty of reasons for both the Northerners in his camp to like and dislike Stannis. Their support could go either way.

[firepoet]

I just wanted to add, that it seemed clear to me that Brienne didn't kill him. People are assuming she did, but I think it's a fake out. Which would make sense if Stannis is supposed to lead the fight against the Others, because back to the wall might be his only option.

[Stormland's Fury]

Not that I think Stannis will be the one to burn Shireen but it's easily plausible. Stannis receives a humiliating defeat, snaps and sends a raven telling Mel to do what it takes to get him victory.

He could send a letter, but I don't think he will resort to burnings at that point. He made already a point by leaving Mel at the Wall and forbidding burnings while being in a very dire situation. He's clearly done with that religious BS and is stannier then ever before. If anything makes him snap it will be the fact that someone burned his daughter.

No matter what happens to him, I'm pretty sure that Shireen's death will be the cause of his breakdown, and not the result.

[Stormland's Fury]

He's burning weirwood trees and making living sacrifices to his god Rhollor. Of course this is going to antagonize them. He was part of the Wall that allowed Wildlings into the North

edit: and he is just about to execute Karstarks

There are plenty of reasons for both the Northerners in his camp to like and dislike Stannis. Their support could go either way.

Did he do that though? He's clearly not willing anymore to burn up stuff too much and the Karstarks are helping the Boltons. Also the Wildlings help them to retake the north, I don't think the northerners are that elitist and ungrateful.

[Consigliere]

I don't think that Stannis burning cannibals is going to cause the northmen to abandon him because I don't consider the northmen to be fighting for Stannis. The Wull made it clear that he and his men are there for Ned's little girl. Stannis's army is also made up of survivors from the battle where Ramsay killed Rodrik so these people are well aware of the Boltons treachery. Not to mention that Manderly knows what went down at the RW.

[Kman2544]

I hate the way the show did it, but Stannis losing the battle is very GRRM especially how much it seems he will be victorious. I even thought in the show after he burned his daughter , it was a forgone conclusion that he would at least win the battle then after that who knew.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Did he do that though? He's clearly not willing anymore to burn up stuff too much and the Karstarks are helping the Boltons. Also the Wildlings help them to retake the north, I don't think the northerners are that elitist and ungrateful.

It is not about elitism, it is about thousands of years of hatred. What the Northmen and Wildings feel about each other should be something similar to the Turks and Greeks, only nastier and not as civilized.

And while Stannis had been told about the Karstarks betrayal, the 400 Karstark men are going to act in a similar fashion to the Karstark men with Robb after he executed Rickard.

[Consigliere]

I hate the way the show did it, but Stannis losing the battle is very GRRM especially how much it seems he will be victorious. I even thought in the show after he burned his daughter , it was a forgone conclusion that he would at least win the battle then after that who knew.

I don't think that the battle has been set up in a way that it is a foregone conclusion for either a Stannis or Bolton victory. Stannis's army is freezing and starving, he is outnumbered, he cannot siege WF and he cannot storm the castle but there are a few things in his favour. Inside WF not everything is going the Boltons way: some northmen are with him, some aren't and some are waiting to see where the chips will fall. Sending out the Frey & Manderly forces seemed like a good idea but this actually works in Stannis's favour yet despite this the Boltons still have the bulk of their forces tucked away behind the walls of WF. Personally I think a Stannis victory would make for a better story since a Bolton win just maintains the status quo whereas a Stannis victory opens up a host of possibilities.

[Stormland's Fury]

It is not about elitism, it is about thousands of years of hatred. What the Northmen and Wildings feel about each other should be something similar to the Turks and Greeks, only nastier and not as civilized.

And while Stannis had been told about the Karstarks betrayal, the 400 Karstark men are going to act in a similar fashion to the Karstark men with Robb after he executed Rickard.

But still is that really enough to absolutely get rid of Stannis or fight him? He gives some Wildlings part of the Gift which isn't part of the North but belongs to the NW/realm and they have to abide to their laws. Especially if his Hand should bring back Rickon I don't really see any reason for them to unnecessarily antagonize him.

[Lost Melnibonean]

He's burning weirwood trees and making living sacrifices to his god Rhollor. Of course this is going to antagonize them. He was part of the Wall that allowed Wildlings into the North

edit: and he is just about to execute Karstarks

There are plenty of reasons for both the Northerners in his camp to like and dislike Stannis. Their support could go either way.

When did he burn a weirwood?

[Daecon Dayne]

Stannis will crush at the Battle of Ice. He mightn't win, but he won't meet an abrupt end either. Highly doubt that he'll both lose the battle and his life.

[Stormland's Fury]

When did he burn a weirwood?

He burned one in Storm's End way back, but has serious doubts to do it in the North. Especially at this point.

[Cas Stark]

It is not about elitism, it is about thousands of years of hatred. What the Northmen and Wildings feel about each other should be something similar to the Turks and Greeks, only nastier and not as civilized.

And while Stannis had been told about the Karstarks betrayal, the 400 Karstark men are going to act in a similar fashion to the Karstark men with Robb after he executed Rickard.

Says who? Karstark is a turncloak double crosser who also has attempted to cheat Alys Karstark out of her inheritance, we don't know if they know this, but they might. They're attacking the Boltons, who everyone in the North knows is responsible for killing Robb Stark, who was their liege lord and their king. Since he's not pressing the red god thing, why wouldnt' the Northerners fight for him?

[Lost Melnibonean]

He burned one in Storm's End way back, but has serious doubts to do it in the North. Especially at this point.

Yeah, unless one of the queensmen go rogue, I don't see it happening now. And I doubt he's bragging about it.

[Stag_legion]

I think stannis' northern campaign will be a success and he will defeat the boltons. He has everything he needs according to TWOW chapters.

I think stannis is alive on the show as well. The show just has a habit of taking away stannis' achievements and giving it to others.

In the books stannis defeats the wildlings straight up even though they tried to resist his army, but on the show wildlings (mance) just tells them to surrender cause they are tired of fighting. So its not that stannis won, but the wildlings just didn't want to fight.

Either the northern houses or little finger and co will defeat the boltons next season, and stannis will be invovled in some way with some kinda redemption arc.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Says who? Karstark is a turncloak double crosser who also has attempted to cheat Alys Karstark out of her inheritance, we don't know if they know this, but they might. They're attacking the Boltons, who everyone in the North knows is responsible for killing Robb Stark, who was their liege lord and their king. Since he's not pressing the red god thing, why wouldnt' the Northerners fight for him?

lol

It is hard discussing the series with people who purely see the series as goodies vs baddies.

The Karstark men with Arnolf have clearly chosen his leadership over that of Alys. He, and his sons, are still part of the Karstark noble family. They are not going to be too pleased when Stannis executes them.

We know this from both Robbs words:

Robb shook his head. "Even if Harrion were that sort, he could never openly forgive his father's killer. His own men would turn on him. These are northmen, Uncle. The north remembers."

and the actions of the Karstark men afterwards. They are not going to be happy with Stannis executing the men they were following and fight his enemies for him, especially when their are plenty of Karstark troops fighting for Roose already.

[Stormland's Fury]

lol

It is hard discussing the series with people who purely see the series as goodies vs baddies.

Stannis already has the letter where Alys testifies that Arnolf is in cahoots with the Boltons. Not that hard for the remaining Karstarks and Northerners to pick a side once that information comes out. He betrayed his own family and the Starks as a whole.