Heresy 170

[Yield.]

Agreed--I think Coldhands' hostility to the wights is real. And given that he seems to be rather wighty--that's weird.

Could see it at least a few ways:

1.Coldhands serves BR and the Children in the cave. The wights around the cave serve someone/thing else. They just attack anyone trying to get into cave. Conflict=attack Coldhands.

2. Or the attack may be specifically to keep Bran from BR and Leaf (kinda makes me want to join the wights). Coldhands serves BR and Leaf, so anger towards wights. Conflict=attack.

3. Wights "serve" BR and Leaf, but are just a minefield--they attack anything living, so kept outside with warding. Maybe attack Coldhands because he's in-between? Coldhands hostile because he's dealt with this before and hates it.

4. NOTE: This one requires assumptions of facts not in evidence: Coldhands serves Leaf (or someone else) more than BR. BR is conflicted re: Bran's coming to him (assumes material not yet in evidence). Would probably mean 3-eyed crow and BR aren't same person. May also mean Leaf and Children are running the show more than BR, despite their praise for him. Coldhands is expecting resistance or increased resistance via wights. Suggests Leaf (or someone else) is more in control than BR. But BR plucks up enough magic to either incite or increase wight attack.

The cave's being warded against Coldhands might makes things harder to figure out. Assume that's because they have to ward against wights--whether wights are a minefield or not.

Bottom line--I think I agree with you mostly. But a "BR calling the attack" scenario isn't unreasonable (at least in my own head). Happy to be proved wrong. But either way, that scenario requires more than a bit of speculation.

Edited for clarity.

I think you pegged with number 1. The Singers need food just like the humans that have joined them do so that could mean their having to leave the cave to get it. Having their own mine field of wights would be a big drawback if they need to use that entrance. Additionally why would Leaf set them on fire if they where theirs? If they were theirs she should be able to control them so that access to the cave would be cleared for anyone human or Singer to pass through safely.

[Yield.]

So I have a crazy theory about the whole Dayne/Dawn issue. I don't know if it impacts R+L=J, which I am not 100% sold on at this point.

Dawn was the sword that was used to defeat the Others in the LN and was the original Ice which was wielded by a Dayne. The Daynes then took the sword as far south in Westeros as possible so the Starks can't the LN by having a NK being reborn and another LN being started or be able to stop the others.

When Ned kills Arthur he gets Dawn and is tempted to keep what he believes is his house's ancestral sword, but Lyanna (tipped off by Rheagar) knows about this and makes Ned promise to return Dawn to the Daynes. However, a Stark just possessing Dawn for the short amount of time during the trip from the ToJ to Starfell somehow awakens the Others as they take it as a sign that the NK has returned.

As far as I have been able to determine there has never been a Stark-Dayne marriage. Maybe there is some rule about the Starks not being allowed to marry Daynes. This prevents Dawn from ever being in the hands of a Stark so when the next LN comes the Daynes can once again use Dawn to defeat the Others. Maybe Ned didn't know about this pact since his hot-headed brother and father died unexpectedly and he never got told about this pact, or maybe only the Daynes knew about it. Arthur could have told him before dying. Ned breaks the bad news to Ashara who is in love with him and she commits suicide knowing that she will never have the love of her life? I know at this point Ned is already married to Cat, so maybe one of his broken promises is one to Ashara?

Who knows I really haven't worked out all the details but it's interesting to me :)

I've always thought that Dawn played a part in the War for the Dawn in the Long Night, not just because of the coincidence of the name.

Dawn was forged from the metal of a meteorite and a meteorite is a fallen asteroid. The comet we see in book one plays a big role in determining who the PTwP will be or is. The only difference between a comet and an asteroid is their make up. The former is mostly gas and dust while the later has metal in it. Without powerful scopes it's hard to tell the difference. So who's to say the comet is not an asteroid. You can see where I'm going with this right...

[Yield.]

I'm not saying she was the village bicycle, but I am saying I can imagine Lyanna being abducted and raped about as easily as I can imagine Arya being abducted and raped. (Calm down BC, Arya's still a virgin.)

But yes, exactly, she's another she-wolf, like Arya... rather than a lady-wolf, like Sansa. I think it far more likely Lyanna was a dominant participant in whatever relationship(s) she was in, rather than a submissive little bird to be caged.

LOL at her being a nice ride.

But yes I was mainly agreeing with you that she was an independent agent and I highly doubt she would have fallen victim to rape. However there is something in that quote from when Ned decides to give Needle back to Arya and sets up lessons for her. It seems he is trying not to make the same mistake Rickard made with Lyanna in not allowing her to have a weapon to defend herself.

He was born in Dorne, so that makes him Dornish ;)

We don't actually know that. He could have been born anywhere between the Bite and the Wolfswood for all we know.

There's that.

But Ned is also darker than Robb. He is darker than Catelyn and Robb has her colouring.

And that.

I don't think Wylla is Dornish. Wylla is a Manderly name. Either they brought their names over from the Reach or they adopted a northern name. Either way a woman with the name Wylla would not be too likely to be originally from Dorne.

I would prefer his mum be Ashara, but I'm far from certain she is. There is also the possibility of AD+Wylla=J.

But mostly I like Dayne+Stark=Jon of Starfall, raised at Winterfell, to become a man-grown on the Wall.

Yeah I haven't read your theory yet sorry. I can see where you're coming from with this though and while I do like it, I'm hesitant because Jon already has a Valyrian sword which suits him quite well. That he should be the one to wield Dawn would mean he has to give up his northern sword.

You sure about that? You seemed to take my meaning pretty well for someone who's lost. :)

I was just confused as to how it all fit together but with your answers I now have a better picture of what you're talking about and I will follow the link in your signature to read the full story :)_

[Yield.]

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

My emphasis

Yes that quote has always put shivers up my spine. It implies there will be two armies of the dead. The cold and the hot.

[Black Crow]

He is playing something but I not sure what. Like I said above he is probably answering to a different authority. But something it the quote Matthew pointed out struck me.

Why and how would a dead man feel the cold? The rest of the party doesn't but he does.

I'd missed that and here it is again:

Quote

Meera eyed the hill above. "The way looks clear."

"Looks, " the ranger muttered darkly. "Can you feel the cold? There's something here. Where are they?"

Coldhands is dead, or at least lets the scoobies believe he's dead, so why warn them of the cold he himself can't feel?

I suppose there's an easy answer in that he knows that they either come with the cold or bring the cold and therefore that if they are about it will be cold, but yet as written it sounds as if he's been alerted to their invisible presence by that cold he can't feel - or can he?

But then if he can't feel it, does he have some other way of knowing or do we return to the original proposition that he's very deliberately ratcheting up the tension?

[Yield.]

Is there a house with a starfish sigil?

Not that I can recall but I haven't read the World Book. There is a house with a crab on it sigil, the Borrells.

[Sly Wren]

And Bloodraven's answer to Bran is actually a No if you read it again. He says 'Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.' Additionally when they arrive at the cave Leaf says 'He is waiting for you.' and Meera asks 'the three eyed crow?' and Leaf answers 'the Greenseer.'

Had forgotten Meera's response--suggests she and Jojen may not be aware that 3-eyed crow and BR might be different things. I'm not at all convinced Meera and Jojen have the full story on what they are doing--which could get interesting. As you said, Jojen claims he's been sent to free the winged wolf. The crow is pecking at the chains--if BR isn't the crow, and the 3-eyed crow isn't working for BR--this could be very interesting if/when Jojen and Meera and Bran figure this out.

This is why I like the idea of Coldhands being an agent of a third party. He is not BR's talking, walking puppet. If he is then why was he at the right place and time to save Gilly, Sam and the baby? And why take them to the Black Gate? What do BR or the Singers gain by this? To have Monster south of the Wall is all I can think of. But then what significance would that make? One less Popsicle? Don't think it will turn the tide for Crasters Boy to be one man down.

So I like the idea of Coldhands being in the same camp as the 3EC. But then why does he escort Bran and the Scoobies to the cave? Maybe it's what Jojen sees that is the key. He says he saw the winged wolf chained and a crow pecking at his chains. This needs to happen before something else becomes of it. In most stories trying to go against a prophesy usually results in the fulfillment of it. So turn the trope around and follow the prophesy and the outcome will be different or at least the rest of the prophesy will be revealed and things will turn out right.

Agreed--the idea that Coldhands, BR, Leaf, the 3-eyed crow, and all the other Children are a united front doesn't seems in any way absolute. The Red lot seem to have factions and free agents.

And I could buy CH taking Bran to the cave as following the prophesy. I think you're implying that that Bran and the Scoobies may turn the prophesy around, yes? And that may be what CH is hoping for? Or are you implying that CH is hoping to maybe help Bran again later, once he knows more? CH does help Gilly and Sam--may be a hint that he's not on board with the "kill humans" nuclear option of the long winter.

Or was it none of the above?

[Sly Wren]

All good questions and I don't to be honest have a coherent theory on this beyond the fact that something isn't right and that just as in Heart of Darkness things are not as they seem. Its also of course worth remembering that no matter his brilliance Kurtz was, shall we say, not entirely sane and its probably asking rather a lot to suppose that Bloodraven is.

Agreed.

[Sly Wren]

I'm not saying she's undead. And it may well be superstition. I just love how Val the beauty dismisses a sweet little girl as a corpse, and I like repeating it, cuz I'm mean. LOL

But, I still think time will prove Val right.

Fair enough--but I reserve the right to despise Val for saying it. :)

[Sly Wren]

Coldhands is dead, or at least lets the scoobies believe he's dead, so why warn them of the cold he himself can't feel?

I suppose there's an easy answer in that he knows that they either come with the cold or bring the cold and therefore that if they are about it will be cold, but yet as written it sounds as if he's been alerted to their invisible presence by that cold he can't feel - or can he?

But then if he can't feel it, does he have some other way of knowing or do we return to the original proposition that he's very deliberately ratcheting up the tension?

I was assuming he can feel the cold because it's wight-based cold. The cold/magic that raises wights, like him. Even dead, any reason why he couldn't feel the magics that raised him when they show up again?

[Sly Wren]

Yes that quote has always put shivers up my spine. It implies there will be two armies of the dead. The cold and the hot.

And the fire-lot raise sentient dead--not good.

Am now wondering if that quote implies that the Red Lot may now be capable of mass raisings, like the wights. That can't be good.

[Black Crow]

It certainly sounds like it, doesn't it.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

In regards to the sword DAWN it reminds me of the sword Turin from the Tolkien book The Children of Hurin used. ( read it if u havent already it'll change ur opinion of tolkien if all u've read is the basics). The sword was also made from a falling star or something its been awhile since i've read it but its a story with incest dragons and prophecies mixed in with free will.

I'll have to go back for a reread to see any major similarities.

The book is strongly based on the story of the legendary finnish character named Kullervo

[TheMiddleHero]

It has that resonance and I've done a lengthy essay on it. I'd only disagree in that they make it very clear in the speech that they are Aerys' bloodriders.

Hook me up with a link, very interested.

Agree with the Aerys part, more a typo. Are you thinking the ToJ was a trap?

[TheSmallOther]

It seems like the Others/WWs/wights are only raised north of the wall, though. How does the Other cross over to raise Jon?

Remember when wights (dead brothers of NW) attacked Mormont? Some think wights do not act on themselves, but are controlled by Others. At least Others press remote start button in order to activate the wight. So, in that night when Mormont was attacked, Jon too felt the cold. Which may indicate an Other's presence nearby. It may also be possible that Wall weekens their powers and they cannot raise wights if these are far enough from the Wall.

[TheSmallOther]

Hook me up with a link, very interested.

Agree with the Aerys part, more a typo. Are you thinking the ToJ was a trap?

I cannot answer for BC himself. In my opinion ToJ wasn't a trap. Most likely both parties know of each other beforehand, there was nothing unexpected from military point of view.

[Black Crow]

Hook me up with a link, very interested.

Agree with the Aerys part, more a typo. Are you thinking the ToJ was a trap?

Yes, that or at least a formal rencounter. I've been revising the essay so you might as well get the latest version rather than link you to an older one:

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths or the blood red skies be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning, given that he was specifically responding to a question about the events. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

There’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar or even Aerys himself. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, but Hightower, Dayne and Whent remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

But not “here” and Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your Queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

There’s another interesting point here. We also know from the World Book that when Rhaegar died at the Trident, Aerys named his own second son Viserys as his heir in place of Rhaegar’s son Aegon. Its argued by some of those who believe that R+L=Jon Targaryen that the Kings Guard were protecting the true king – but that was Viserys and men whose last words repeatedly affirm their loyalty to Aerys are hardly likely to be rejecting his last orders.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions as to R+L=J it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

[Yield.]

I'd missed that and here it is again:

Quote

Coldhands is dead, or at least lets the scoobies believe he's dead, so why warn them of the cold he himself can't feel?

I suppose there's an easy answer in that he knows that they either come with the cold or bring the cold and therefore that if they are about it will be cold, but yet as written it sounds as if he's been alerted to their invisible presence by that cold he can't feel - or can he?

But then if he can't feel it, does he have some other way of knowing or do we return to the original proposition that he's very deliberately ratcheting up the tension?

I have since gone back and read Bran's previous chapter, the one you are referring to where they figure out he's dead. He never actually says he's dead just that when the heart stops pumping the blood goes to the extremities and swells them into black sausages. Clearly his heart is no longer pumping because his hand are black.

However there was a line in there too about him and fire:-

Coldhands stood beside the door, a raven on his arm, both staring at the fire. Reflections from the flames glittered off four black eyes. He does not eat, Bran remembered, and he fears the flames.

So again, does he feel the heat or is it that he fears it because he can go up in flames the way Leaf does with the wights outside the cave? The fire was in the center of the room and CH stays by the door. Very strange all of it.

[Matthew.]

Bran, in Summer, also notes that Coldhands smells "cold all over." I've always been content to interpret the magic that brought his body to life as the same magic that brings wights to life, with one very notable difference--he retains his sense of self, which is why I also believe he lacks the burning blue eyes.

There are a couple explanations for CH that I lean toward, though this is not meant to be an exhaustive list of every potential scenario:
-He was once a part of the wight horde, before being freed by BR/the CotF. This would give him good motive to hate the wights and their master, if he was once a thrall
-He's one of the members of the NW who served when BR was LC, perhaps even a BR loyalist, and BR used his magic to resurrect him
-More crackpot, he's one of the last vestiges of the old Night's Watch, the Night's Watch as it was before the Night's King was overthrown

[Yield.]

Had forgotten Meera's response--suggests she and Jojen may not be aware that 3-eyed crow and BR might be different things. I'm not at all convinced Meera and Jojen have the full story on what they are doing--which could get interesting. As you said, Jojen claims he's been sent to free the winged wolf. The crow is pecking at the chains--if BR isn't the crow, and the 3-eyed crow isn't working for BR--this could be very interesting if/when Jojen and Meera and Bran figure this out.

Yeah unfortunately while I was reading that chapter I'm telling Black Crow about, I also found this:-

Meera’s gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. “Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?”

“A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer.” The longhall’s wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

“A monster,” Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. “Your monster, Brandon Stark.”

“Yours,” the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer’s song of “Yours, yours, yours.”

“Jojen, did you dream this?” Meera asked her brother. “Who is he? What is he? What do we do now?”

“We go with the ranger,” said Jojen. “We have come too far to turn back now, Meera. We would never make it back to the Wall alive. We go with Bran’s monster, or we die.”

Now again its hard to tell which of Meera's two questions CH is answering but it seems like he is saying he was sent to them by BR. But you can all so read it as CH answering her second question while ignoring the first. Which means call BR what you like because it doesn't matter that's where I'm taking you.

The second bolded part is more interesting because she again asks too many questions and Jojen only answers the last one of what to do now. So it suggests what you are saying that the Scoobies don't actually know what's really going on. Meera is going on faith that her brother's visions are true. Jojen is keeping what he knows close to his vest. And Bran certainly doesn't seem to have a clue. He's just hoping to get his legs back.

Agreed--the idea that Coldhands, BR, Leaf, the 3-eyed crow, and all the other Children are a united front doesn't seems in any way absolute. The Red lot seem to have factions and free agents.

:cheers:

And I could buy CH taking Bran to the cave as following the prophesy. I think you're implying that that Bran and the Scoobies may turn the prophesy around, yes? And that may be what CH is hoping for? Or are you implying that CH is hoping to maybe help Bran again later, once he knows more? CH does help Gilly and Sam--may be a hint that he's not on board with the "kill humans" nuclear option of the long winter.

Or was it none of the above?

Yes you got it right. I am saying that since Martin likes to turn tropes around instead of fighting a prophesy, or in this case Jojen's greendream, they are working towards it. If they continue to follow what they think they should be doing then the ending might be changed because they haven't fought against it. It's something that is not often done in fantasy. The usual thing is for the character to do all in their power for the thing they dread most not happen and that is precisely why it happens. Oedipus Rex is the perfect example.