Heresy 170

[wolfmaid7]

IF Lyanna did die in child birth i would imagine some type of bleeding involved and if your lying down the blood could easily go all over you especially if you just held your new born son

That is different though.....Especially looking at the words GRRM used.

"spattered with gore" versus just her "covered with blood"

the phrase "spattered with gore" has a meaning behind it. Not mention in that dream and Ned's she or her statue is described as sad.Considering also that according to Ned's memory after he tells he makes the promise she smiles.So the sadness is pre existing.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Not unless one's vagina is unbelievebly tight during, with blood and baby moving at great speed forced by a piston toward the opening which refuses to dilate and the baby is canon balled from the vagina across the room depositing blood in its wake.

I have seen babies born in the Congo,Ethiopia and Kenya in conditions that aren't mordern just village midwives being observed and aided to ensure maternal and child mortality decreases per Millenium Development Goal # 5 from WHO.

I've yet to see any mother "Spattered with gore" even the most basic of nursing skills performed by a midwife in less that modern surroundings didn't result in that.

WOW good for you that really is awesome that you've traveled to those places and helped out! Major respect for that!

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

That is different though.....Especially looking at the words GRRM used.

"spattered with gore" versus just her "covered with blood"

the phrase "spattered with gore" has a meaning behind it. Not mention in that dream and Ned's she or her statue is described as sad.Considering also that according to Ned's memory after he tells he makes the promise she smiles.So the sadness is pre existing.

I was just presenting a situation where spattered gore could fit in my mind thats all. i mean if a woman bleeding from the inside just held her baby covered in said blood and was then seen by her brother her brother might think she was "spattered with gore" is all im saying i dont know if thats what GRRM intended just saying it could be

[Sly Wren]

Not unless one's vagina is unbelievebly tight during, with blood and baby moving at great speed forced by a piston toward the opening which refuses to dilate and the baby is canon balled from the vagina across the room depositing blood in its wake.

Oh no. Am thinking of Yield's idea on previous thread that the show runners might read y'all's posts and get ideas for the show. Please, mummers. Please, please, please--DON'T USE THIS!!!!

I have seen babies born in the Congo,Ethiopia and Kenya in conditions that aren't mordern just village midwives being observed and aided to ensure maternal and child mortality decreases per Millenium Development Goal # 5 from WHO.

I've yet to see any mother "Spattered with gore" even the most basic of nursing skills performed by a midwife in less that modern surroundings didn't result in that.

Completely agree with your interp of "spattered with gore."

And I second SerWalter--this is amazing!!!!

[Mother of Dragons]

@sly wren.. Please go on about Kublai Khan

The show marco polo on netflix was pretty good.

"Like"

It was, wasn't it? I was pretty upset with myself because I watched it too fast. Hope it's being renewed for another season.

[wolfmaid7]

WOW good for you that really is awesome that you've traveled to those places and helped out! Major respect for that!

Unfortunately,in these cases i was mostly observing and collecting data.

I was just presenting a situation where spattered gore could fit in my mind thats all. i mean if a woman bleeding from the inside just held her baby covered in said blood and was then seen by her brother her brother might think she was "spattered with gore" is all im saying i dont know if thats what GRRM intended just saying it could be

Actually this was Theon's dream.Ned's only has "Lyanna in her bed of blood."

Oh no. Am thinking of Yield's idea on previous thread that the show runners might read y'all's posts and get ideas for the show. Please, mummers. Please, please, please--DON'T USE THIS!!!!

Completely agree with your interp of "spattered with gore."

And I second SerWalter--this is amazing!!!!

It would be funny i imagine there's a midwife with a net swaying left to right trying to determine which way he'll land....Hahaha

[Sly Wren]

Good note about roses. I was thinking about Virgin Mary, since there are quite few examples of her statues weeping blood. Starks may follow the Old Gods, but it may not be a problem. Lyanna, for example, could have been turned to some other religion.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the version mentioned by several others, saying that this symbolises some violent event. Gore and sky with blood would fit into it, too.

Sacrifice would be an interesting turn of events. Wouldn't be surprising too much. It all began with ritual in Harrenhall (at least quite a number of heretics think it was some sort of ritual). Why should ritual stop at the tournament? On the other hand, it was mentioned Rheagar was a bard, Rheagar was a warrior, but we haven't heard of Rheagar being priest. And if we claim all this ritual represents Beltane, I'd like to know if queen should be sacrificed in any way during Beltane's rituals. At least I haven't found any references to such sacrifices.

My knowledge of Beltane is pretty limited--and I can't think of a sacrifice of a queen, either.

I was thinking more along the lines that her life was used to bring forth the prophesy (assuming that's what Rhaegar was doing)--via her death in childbirth or otherwise. So, the "sacrifice" could have been deliberate or a side-effect. But given the violence of the "spattered with gore" in Theon's dream and the bleeding eyes in Ned's--the idea that this was more violent--maybe even tied to blood-magic of the Red Lot--I'm really out on a limb. But I've been assuming Bloodraven may have known about the PtwP-type prophesies and been trying to work with them. Aemon clearly knows--he and Rhaegar discussed something via raven--blood and fire magic seems at least plausible.

Other potential "idea": if Jon is Lyanna's child--what if he was supposed to be a sacrifice? Have wondered if Lyanna knew this and wanted Jon kept safe ("promise me, Ned"). But Ned let Jon go to the Wall--is this setting Jon up to be a sacrifice? To the prophesy? To the cause?

Obviously not sure on any of this--but fully agree on the violence of the imagery surrounding Lyanna. Really not sold at present on the Arthurian romance tale that currently surrounds so much RLJ theory.

[Sly Wren]

Its interesting that another argument wrapped up in the R+L=Jon Targaryen theory holds that as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Jon embodies both Ice and Fire and is therefore the key to the resolution of the business. Yet if we treat Ice and Fire metaphorically rather than literally and interpret them as opposed extremes then we find Bloodraven as the son of a Targaryen and a Blackwood also embodying the two - the old gods and the new perhaps - and its not a pretty sight.

Yes--am assuming you all have discussed Bloodraven's magical mystery tour of explorations before. But I've wondered about that prophesy--and how long the Targaryens have heard about such prophesies (is that why they finally came west, etc.). Did Bloodraven explore the prophesy? Is he trying to use ice and fire himself? Or is he just a combo of both--and exploring the combo? As you say, not pretty.

[Mother of Dragons]

I agree with Wolfmaid's assertions re: gore. When I read the passage again, it doesn't sound like childbirth, but a death more violent.

Also recall Ned's talk with Arya, when he tells her that she has the wolf blood like Lyanna, which is why Lyanna (and Brandon) died before their time. The context was when Ned found out Arya was playing with Needle, so maybe she was killed with a sword or something.

If you really want me too, I'll look up the quote, but I'm unable to highlight, copy, paste right now.

[PrettyPig]

Hello Heretics, long time no log on..... :)

Was catching up and just wanted to comment on the imagery of Kubla Khan....I see it being applied to BR's hidey hole here, but it seems to me that it would be more apt for Vaes Dothrak and in particular the Mother of Mountains and Womb of the World.

The latter, of course, being a holy place and rumored to be bottomless, and sports a river running north through the Kingdom of the Ifequevron to the Shivering Sea, heading BR's direction. Would not be surprised at all to see a collision of very ancient east/west mythos play out in the future, and not insignificant that Bran is nearest the Heart of Winter whereas Dany has rejoined the group that claims the origins of all mankind.

Also, some here may recall that I'm a huge fan of the "Lyanna died violently" theory and might remember my post about Theon's dream and the Role Call of the Slain. This, plus all of GRRM's very Catholicky Christ-on-the-Cross imagery surrounding Lyanna (sad eyes, weeping blood, crown of roses with hidden thorns, white gown spattered with gore, etc), leads me to believe that Lyanna's fate wasn't nearly so neat or romantic as some make it out to be.

[Mother of Dragons]

Hello Heretics, long time no log on..... :)

Also, some here may recall that I'm a huge fan of the "Lyanna died violently" theory and might remember my post about Theon's dream and the Role Call of the Slain. This, plus all of GRRM's very Catholicky Christ-on-the-Cross imagery surrounding Lyanna (sad eyes, weeping blood, crown of roses with hidden thorns, white gown spattered with gore, etc), leads me to believe that Lyanna's fate wasn't nearly so neat or romantic as some make it out to be.

Hi Piglet☺️

I'm used to seeing your other lovely portrait. I am unfamiliar with your Theon's dream post, but I'd like to read it if you have it handy.

[Mother of Dragons]

PS- good call with Christ on a Cross imagery. I can see her dying as some kind of martyr. Well, I suppose she already is kind of considered a martyr, at least by Robert & Ned (back in book 1).

[Direwolf Blitzer]

I gotta say, Wolfmaid... that bit about the vagina cannon might be the best post in Heresy, and by the transitive property of logic, all of Westeros.

And props for working on such an awesome thing as reducing infant and mother mortality.

[WhitewolfStark]

My knowledge of Beltane is pretty limited--and I can't think of a sacrifice of a queen, either.

I was thinking more along the lines that her life was used to bring forth the prophesy (assuming that's what Rhaegar was doing)--via her death in childbirth or otherwise. So, the "sacrifice" could have been deliberate or a side-effect. But given the violence of the "spattered with gore" in Theon's dream and the bleeding eyes in Ned's--the idea that this was more violent--maybe even tied to blood-magic of the Red Lot--I'm really out on a limb. But I've been assuming Bloodraven may have known about the PtwP-type prophesies and been trying to work with them. Aemon clearly knows--he and Rhaegar discussed something via raven--blood and fire magic seems at least plausible.

Other potential "idea": if Jon is Lyanna's child--what if he was supposed to be a sacrifice? Have wondered if Lyanna knew this and wanted Jon kept safe ("promise me, Ned"). But Ned let Jon go to the Wall--is this setting Jon up to be a sacrifice? To the prophesy? To the cause?

Obviously not sure on any of this--but fully agree on the violence of the imagery surrounding Lyanna. Really not sold at present on the Arthurian romance tale that currently surrounds so much RLJ theory.

Why is it that all these talks of ritual sacrifice of a woman has be thinking of The Rite of Spring? In which a woman is chosen and then sacrificed (in the ballet she dances a spectacular dance to the death). And it's all done in the belief that it will bring fertility to the land once again and bring Spring.

Funny then that Lyanna was crowned during the False Spring and abducted and later killed turing the return of Winter.

Probably reading too much into this coincidence. But all this talk of Rhaegar as a potential "priest" trying to arrange prophesy to happen and violent imagery being associated with her character has me wondering...

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Actually this was Theon's dream.Ned's only has "Lyanna in her bed of blood."

It would be funny i imagine there's a midwife with a net swaying left to right trying to determine which way he'll land....Hahaha

OH!!! lol But what does Theon know about Lyanna other then her being "kidnapped" and "raped" so how reliable are his dreams when it comes to us trying to piece together what happened to her?

[wolfmaid7]

My knowledge of Beltane is pretty limited--and I can't think of a sacrifice of a queen, either.

I was thinking more along the lines that her life was used to bring forth the prophesy (assuming that's what Rhaegar was doing)--via her death in childbirth or otherwise. So, the "sacrifice" could have been deliberate or a side-effect. But given the violence of the "spattered with gore" in Theon's dream and the bleeding eyes in Ned's--the idea that this was more violent--maybe even tied to blood-magic of the Red Lot--I'm really out on a limb. But I've been assuming Bloodraven may have known about the PtwP-type prophesies and been trying to work with them. Aemon clearly knows--he and Rhaegar discussed something via raven--blood and fire magic seems at least plausible.

Other potential "idea": if Jon is Lyanna's child--what if he was supposed to be a sacrifice? Have wondered if Lyanna knew this and wanted Jon kept safe ("promise me, Ned"). But Ned let Jon go to the Wall--is this setting Jon up to be a sacrifice? To the prophesy? To the cause?

Obviously not sure on any of this--but fully agree on the violence of the imagery surrounding Lyanna. Really not sold at present on the Arthurian romance tale that currently surrounds so much RLJ theory.

Beltane rituals depending on what traditions have a Wicker man as a sacrifice. The Floral goddess and the horned god would consumate in what is called the "Grand rite" or "the sacred marriage" the floral goddess always concieves at that time. But in this case and as i've argued i place Rhaegar as the Wicker man.

As i think more on this another imagery strikes me with Lyanna:

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

²And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

³And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

⁴And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

⁵And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

⁶And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

I agree with Wolfmaid's assertions re: gore. When I read the passage again, it doesn't sound like childbirth, but a death more violent.

Also recall Ned's talk with Arya, when he tells her that she has the wolf blood like Lyanna, which is why Lyanna (and Brandon) died before their time. The context was when Ned found out Arya was playing with Needle, so maybe she was killed with a sword or something.

If you really want me too, I'll look up the quote, but I'm unable to highlight, copy, paste right now.

Reading this evoked violence violence for me.

Hello Heretics, long time no log on..... :)

Was catching up and just wanted to comment on the imagery of Kubla Khan....I see it being applied to BR's hidey hole here, but it seems to me that it would be more apt for Vaes Dothrak and in particular the Mother of Mountains and Womb of the World.

The latter, of course, being a holy place and rumored to be bottomless, and sports a river running north through the Kingdom of the Ifequevron to the Shivering Sea, heading BR's direction. Would not be surprised at all to see a collision of very ancient east/west mythos play out in the future, and not insignificant that Bran is nearest the Heart of Winter whereas Dany has rejoined the group that claims the origins of all mankind.

Also, some here may recall that I'm a huge fan of the "Lyanna died violently" theory and might remember my post about Theon's dream and the Role Call of the Slain. This, plus all of GRRM's very Catholicky Christ-on-the-Cross imagery surrounding Lyanna (sad eyes, weeping blood, crown of roses with hidden thorns, white gown spattered with gore, etc), leads me to believe that Lyanna's fate wasn't nearly so neat or romantic as some make it out to be.

Welcome back Pretty Pig

I gotta say, Wolfmaid... that bit about the vagina cannon might be the best post in Heresy, and by the transitive property of logic, all of Westeros.

And props for working on such an awesome thing as reducing infant and mother mortality.

hahaha lol

[wolfmaid7]

OH!!! lol But what does Theon know about Lyanna other then her being "kidnapped" and "raped" so how reliable are his dreams when it comes to us trying to piece together what happened to her?

He identifies her by the Pale blue roses but the rest of the interpretation is on us.He didn't impose anything on what he dreamed with that respect.

[Mother of Dragons]

I gotta say, Wolfmaid... that bit about the vagina cannon might be the best post in Heresy, and by the transitive property of logic, all of Westeros.

And props for working on such an awesome thing as reducing infant and mother mortality.

I think it should be added to The Song of Vaginal Hygeine collection.

Great post, I agree!

[Sly Wren]

Hello Heretics, long time no log on..... :)

Was catching up and just wanted to comment on the imagery of Kubla Khan....I see it being applied to BR's hidey hole here, but it seems to me that it would be more apt for Vaes Dothrak and in particular the Mother of Mountains and Womb of the World.

The latter, of course, being a holy place and rumored to be bottomless, and sports a river running north through the Kingdom of the Ifequevron to the Shivering Sea, heading BR's direction. Would not be surprised at all to see a collision of very ancient east/west mythos play out in the future, and not insignificant that Bran is nearest the Heart of Winter whereas Dany has rejoined the group that claims the origins of all mankind.

Also, some here may recall that I'm a huge fan of the "Lyanna died violently" theory and might remember my post about Theon's dream and the Role Call of the Slain. This, plus all of GRRM's very Catholicky Christ-on-the-Cross imagery surrounding Lyanna (sad eyes, weeping blood, crown of roses with hidden thorns, white gown spattered with gore, etc), leads me to believe that Lyanna's fate wasn't nearly so neat or romantic as some make it out to be.

1. Agree that Vaes Dothrak definitely has some of the imagery. Still think the cave of skulls and Winterfell (per Lady Dyanna's statements above) are stronger parallels. Leaf flat out says there's a "sunless sea" at the bottom of caverns that the Children haven't fully explored--straight out of Coleridge. Plus--sunless sea. Can't remember if the Shivering Sea is underground at any point, but "Kubla Khan" has a sunless sea--entirely underground. Then, for Winterfell--the walled and towered garden, the vast crypt network--the miracle of rare device, sunny pleasure dome with caves of ice--I think these fit better than Vaes Dothrak. But both Coleridge and Martin are drawing on long traditions re: caves. Now--is Martin just using the images because his high school English teacher made him memorize the poem? Maybe. . . maybe it means more.

2. Agree with Mother of Dragons on the martyr imagery. Hadn't thought of the Rose crown as a crown of thorns until you all brought it up--nice. Twisted--am liking Rhaegar less by the minute.

[Sly Wren]

Why is it that all these talks of ritual sacrifice of a woman has be thinking of The Rite of Spring? In which a woman is chosen and then sacrificed (in the ballet she dances a spectacular dance to the death). And it's all done in the belief that it will bring fertility to the land once again and bring Spring.

Funny then that Lyanna was crowned during the False Spring and abducted and later killed turing the return of Winter.

Probably reading too much into this coincidence. But all this talk of Rhaegar as a potential "priest" trying to arrange prophesy to happen and violent imagery being associated with her character has me wondering...

Had not even thought of that--and I've even seen this ballet. Excellent!

Not sure if Rhaegar is actually a "priest"--though wouldn't that be a twist. But his delving into his studies and chasing old prophesies--am wondering if he ever started experimenting with magics like Bloodraven.

And if this were tied to a fertility ritual (thanks, Wolfmaid, for the post above--very interesting)--am guessing we don't have anything like enough info re: Rhaegar and Elia trying to have another baby? Using Lyanna as part of it? I'm way out on a limb--but one of the main RLJ "backstories" is that Rhaegar wanted the dragon to have three heads--what if Jon wasn't supposed to be that? What if this was preamble to a third child with Elia?

Should stop typing now before I get any crazier . . .