Rant and Rave Without Repercussion 2 (Book Spoilers)

[The Prince of Porne]

I can't take seriously anyone who thinks Daario is Euron. Just no.

I'm unfamiliar with this theory. Are people saying that Daario will fill the general role of Euron from the books (try to bind the dragons to his will somehow, etc.) or... that he is literally Euron Greyjoy?

[Red Helm]

The scary thing is, I'm not sure it won't happen.

Another 5 or so Myrandas would be horrifying. The last actress was insufferable enough bolstered by the writing.

[Veltigar]

It was hilarious! As stated on the last thread, if Jon had Longclaw, then their threatrics with the sign could have backfired horribly. The scene was do stupid.

It looked like they were all standing in line at the post-office. Compare that to Ceasar's stabbing in Rome, which was so dramatic, messy and well-acted. This just felt so stagey and clunky.

All the nights watch traitors parting the sea for Olly to get the kill blow like he's head conspirator made me chuckle.

Are you implying that he wasn't? Because given the focus on him it's pretty clear that he put it all in motion :p

[Red Helm]

I'm unfamiliar with this theory. Are people saying that Daario will fill the general role of Euron from the books (try to bind the dragons to his will somehow, etc.) or... that he is literally Euron Greyjoy?

Yes. That Daario is literally Euron undercover. I'm serious. Tons of videos and threads dedicated to this as well.

[R4W13Y]

Yeah I know. Everytime I think D&D are building to something elaborate and clever it always finds a way to underwhelm even my lowest expectations.

A lot of people thought Trystane would be pseudo Aegon or pseudo Quentyn and Dorne would fight for the throne too. But if Trystane is just a plot device then that's disappointing. I suppose they're streamlining Dorne's involvement in the upcoming war too like with Stannis/The North so expect no major Dorne developments.

That's how I've felt during previous seasons but they broke me during Season 3 and it's only gotten worse.

People had a lot of ideas/theories about how seemingly stupid storylines would play out this season to make them seem intelligent in hindsight, but none of those came to fruition.

See, for me "intelligent" means that the writing is consistent and logical, that plots grow out of the characters making choices that are in character, and that the writers trust the viewers to make the connections and to make up their minds about how to view a character. I will agree that in earlier seasons, to a greater or lesser degree, GoT did many of these things but I think that was more a function of how closely they were hewing to Martin's storyline, because he does do all these things. Now that the shows' main writers have gone off to find their own paths, there is a consistent inconsistency, a lack of logic that started to show quite massively last season. I was actually fine with many of the show's changes, including such controversial things as Shae's being genuinely fond of Sansa and genuinely in love with Tyrion, except that they never follow through on their own changes. Shae is never shown to be threatened by Tywin or Cersei for her false testimony against Tyrion, and there's never any reason given for her to attack Tyrion or be in Tywin's bed: she just is, and that is completely putting character at the service of plot. The show's version of Shae, who genuinely loved Tyrion, who genuinely wanted to protect Sansa, would not have done the exact same things Book!Shae does because she is not the same person, so ... on the show, she just does these things for reasons ...

In this episode, there is NO REASON for the NW guys to kill Jon except that it's a plot point to tick off so they can say they are following the books. Why do Stannis and Doran and the Tyrells put the sole heirs of their houses into mortal danger? Who knows? Why did the mutineers at Craster's Keep decide to imprison Ghost and feed him their precious stocks of food rather than just killing him? Why did Yara go on that silly rescue mission and then give up without a fight? These are all examples of characterization servicing plot, and no show that does that so consistently is something I will ever consider particularly intelligent especially when they have thousands of pages of source material to draw on which is telling a quite different story :P The plot should be something where the character is actions are saying "here I stand;I can do no other" and we, the audience, also agree with that because we know the characters. At this point, that's actually very hard to say what a character will do on GoT, but that's not because the show is subtle or mysterious, but simply because their characterizations are so inconsistent and changeable. (The only thing we really know is that Tyrion is always right.)

So I find it very hard to say that this is the most intelligent or one of the most intelligent shows on tv. We keep talking about Michael Bay pejoratively, but he helms a show (on Starz!) that actually does use character to advance plot - "Black Sails" has big shocking moments that are genuinely shocking, but when you look back at them, they also make sense because they are consistent with the characters as we've come to know them. Yes, honestly, I think Michael Bay might do a better job at this point :P

What GoT has going for it is: spectacular locations, the trappings of a fantasy series with a huge budget (so this isn't BBC "Merlin" level CGI for dragons for example), fantastic actors (except for two of the biggest roles :P), and the novelty factor (oh, and lots of English accents, which I think Americans like me automatically equate with quality tv - thanks, Masterpiece Theater!) But Downton Abbey has a lot of the same things, and I think that's a really critically overrated show.

Back when GoT first began, Showtime debuted "The Borgias" at the same time, and I was really skeptical about that show but also worried that it would be a rival for GoT. I finally watched it and while some of the history is really mangled, I think that show was better written and all around better at portraying moral ambiguity than GoT has become. I'm starting to think the wrong show was canceled after season 3!

Phew, thanks for reading if you did! It felt great to get that off my chest and Ser Bucket, I hope I was not being argumentative with you specifically, you just gave me an opening to express my feelings in hopefully a semi-coherent way!!

I just...yes. Just yes to every single word of this. Yes yes yes.

Calling GoT an intelligent show is just far and beyond how I would ever define "intelligent" - especially with so many good and actually intelligent shows on BBC, Netflix, Showtime, Starz, basic cable (Hannibal! Mad Men!), Amazon Prime, and even HBO!

If someone likes it but they like it because it's "fun" I can buy that. But because it's deep and intelligent and consistent and complex? Sorry, not buying that one.

...I thought that was a parody...

Nope. I'll do some digging in a bit for the actual serious post about it (it was on /r/asoiaf). Then it became a huge parody because of how fucking stupid it is.

I must say, I really like the theory you linked about Ned. It's absolutely hilarious, I love these crackpot theories :lol:

http://www.randomhousebooks.com/lists/only-watch-game-of-thrones-heres-what-youre-missing/

Ooh, when was this written? Time to share with my shownly friends (who have already sworn off the show, so step one: check!).

[Cas Stark]

I'm unfamiliar with this theory. Are people saying that Daario will fill the general role of Euron from the books (try to bind the dragons to his will somehow, etc.) or... that he is literally Euron Greyjoy?

HAHAHA. Oh my. You should go to the book forum, source of so many crackpot theories. Yes, that he is literally Euron Greyjoy in disguise. Also, there is a theory that Mance is Rhaegar Targaryen, also that Rhaegar, not Mance, but isn't dead, that Howland Reed is the High Sparrow..they are endless and crazy, oh so crazy. Also many theories of different parents for Jon and Dany also.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Roose: "The Night's King is here, with 30,000 wights..."

Ramsbo: "Give me 20 good men"

Roose: "Obsidian blades?"

Ramsbo: "hmmmm... give me, 21 good men"

[Red Helm]

They also all sounded so bored when they said "For the Watch". Compare that to even the small nuances of Wick terrified after Jon disarms him and Marsh crying because he truly feels terrible about trying to kill Jon.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

I think they're going to milk both Ramsay as a bad boy anti-hero - because it's their take on 'grey' characters - and the victimising of Sansa, so I'm expecting them to be recaptured by Ramsay. It gets better. See, now Ramsay is feeling invincible, in part because he is, and he'll be enraged by the escape and the death of his girlfriend, and will commit to inflicting pain with renewed gusto. :ack:

While reason would say that should be impossible, as it serves no narrative purpose, I have no faith reason will rule out. :frown5:

[Red Helm]

HAHAHA. Oh my. You should go to the book forum, source of so many crackpot theories. Yes, that he is literally Euron Greyjoy in disguise. Also, there is a theory that Mance is Rhaegar Targaryen, also that Rhaegar, not Mance, but isn't dead, that Howland Reed is the High Sparrow..they are endless and crazy, oh so crazy. Also many theories of different parents for Jon and Dany also.

...That Mance is Rhaegar?!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

This should be the most important casting call of the coming season. Ramsay's Best Girl. It's a shame it's only one girl. Since we can't have the Bastard's Boys, he should get a posse of girls. What a scamp, eh?

Ramsay and his 20 best bad pussies?

[Red Helm]

Ramsay and his 20 best bad pussies?

The Bastard's Bitches.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

It looked like they were all standing in line at the post-office. Compare that to Ceasar's stabbing in Rome, which was so dramatic, messy and well-acted. This just felt so stagey and clunky.

Are you implying that he wasn't? Because given the focus on him it's pretty clear that he put it all in motion :P

I can just imagine him walking up to his new brothers with puppy dog eyes. "I can't even look at potatoes now. Let's kill Jon Snow."

[JonInVa]

Jon: "Hey Sam. Before you go could you take longclaw over to the armory for a cleaning, and make sure Ghost is locked up? I don't want to upset the Brothers by having the two most potent weapons at the Wall around me. K? Thanks buddy."

Idiots.

[Cas Stark]

...That Mance is Rhaegar?!

Yeah, red thread, red is one of targ colors, likes to sing so did Rhaegar..... It's fucking crazy. Though I admit it has beem a little hard to tell the earnest crazy from the satire crazy, but I'm fairly sure that was earnest crazy.

[Red Helm]

Jon: "Hey Sam. Before you go could you take longclaw over to the armory for a cleaning, and make sure Ghost is locked up? I don't want to upset the Brothers by having the two most potent weapons at the Wall around me. K? Thanks buddy."

Idiots.

Why would Jon tell Sam to lock up Ghost? It isn't even Jon's dog, you foolish swine.

[JonInVa]

If they truly kill Jon, then at fucking least have Ghost escape and find Sansa to protect her. But no. We'll see,Thorne wearing a new white pelt in S6 Episode 1.

[Red Helm]

Yeah, red thread, red is one of targ colors, likes to sing so did Rhaegar..... It's fucking crazy. Though I admit it has beem a little hard to tell the earnest crazy from the satire crazy, but I'm fairly sure that was earnest crazy.

Is a character seen eating a peach also Renly whom somehow survived?

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Jon: "Hey Sam. Before you go could you take longclaw over to the armory for a cleaning, and make sure Ghost is locked up? I don't want to upset the Brothers by having the two most potent weapons at the Wall around me. K? Thanks buddy."

Idiots.

Guess they missed cribbing that part of survival horror fiction where protaganists sleep with guns even when 'safe' after surviving the zombie outbreak because that is a reasonable reaction to that kind of trauma.

[SerDesmondHume]

See, for me "intelligent" means that the writing is consistent and logical, that plots grow out of the characters making choices that are in character, and that the writers trust the viewers to make the connections and to make up their minds about how to view a character. I will agree that in earlier seasons, to a greater or lesser degree, GoT did many of these things but I think that was more a function of how closely they were hewing to Martin's storyline, because he does do all these things. Now that the shows' main writers have gone off to find their own paths, there is a consistent inconsistency, a lack of logic that started to show quite massively last season. I was actually fine with many of the show's changes, including such controversial things as Shae's being genuinely fond of Sansa and genuinely in love with Tyrion, except that they never follow through on their own changes. Shae is never shown to be threatened by Tywin or Cersei for her false testimony against Tyrion, and there's never any reason given for her to attack Tyrion or be in Tywin's bed: she just is, and that is completely putting character at the service of plot. The show's version of Shae, who genuinely loved Tyrion, who genuinely wanted to protect Sansa, would not have done the exact same things Book!Shae does because she is not the same person, so ... on the show, she just does these things for reasons ...

In this episode, there is NO REASON for the NW guys to kill Jon except that it's a plot point to tick off so they can say they are following the books. Why do Stannis and Doran and the Tyrells put the sole heirs of their houses into mortal danger? Who knows? Why did the mutineers at Craster's Keep decide to imprison Ghost and feed him their precious stocks of food rather than just killing him? Why did Yara go on that silly rescue mission and then give up without a fight? These are all examples of characterization servicing plot, and no show that does that so consistently is something I will ever consider particularly intelligent especially when they have thousands of pages of source material to draw on which is telling a quite different story :P The plot should be something where the character is actions are saying "here I stand;I can do no other" and we, the audience, also agree with that because we know the characters. At this point, that's actually very hard to say what a character will do on GoT, but that's not because the show is subtle or mysterious, but simply because their characterizations are so inconsistent and changeable. (The only thing we really know is that Tyrion is always right.)

So I find it very hard to say that this is the most intelligent or one of the most intelligent shows on tv. We keep talking about Michael Bay pejoratively, but he helms a show (on Starz!) that actually does use character to advance plot - "Black Sails" has big shocking moments that are genuinely shocking, but when you look back at them, they also make sense because they are consistent with the characters as we've come to know them. Yes, honestly, I think Michael Bay might do a better job at this point :P

What GoT has going for it is: spectacular locations, the trappings of a fantasy series with a huge budget (so this isn't BBC "Merlin" level CGI for dragons for example), fantastic actors (except for two of the biggest roles :P), and the novelty factor (oh, and lots of English accents, which I think Americans like me automatically equate with quality tv - thanks, Masterpiece Theater!) But Downton Abbey has a lot of the same things, and I think that's a really critically overrated show.

Back when GoT first began, Showtime debuted "The Borgias" at the same time, and I was really skeptical about that show but also worried that it would be a rival for GoT. I finally watched it and while some of the history is really mangled, I think that show was better written and all around better at portraying moral ambiguity than GoT has become. I'm starting to think the wrong show was canceled after season 3!

Phew, thanks for reading if you did! It felt great to get that off my chest and Ser Bucket, I hope I was not being argumentative with you specifically, you just gave me an opening to express my feelings in hopefully a semi-coherent way!!

Hmm excellent post. This hits the nail right on the head. A lot of us in this thread usually get called book purists but I honestly wouldn't mind if they stuck to their own changes and followed your outline.

For example the whole Shae arc made no sense and for whatever reason they thought beetles made more sense than Tysha. So what if they had Shae beaten into testimony and Tyrion sends Jaime to save her. Tywin has her hanged (like he said he would) before Jaime can do anything and Tyrion losing Shae causes the falling out and his decision to kill his father. Losing Tyrion's respect and with bad memories over the city Jaime goes to Dorne (announced) to reconnect with his daughter (his last family left). Myrcella gets screentime so you actually care about her and Jaime uncovers a plot by the sand snakes while in Dorne. This also leave Tyrion going to Daenerys so that he can avenge Shae and oust his family from power once and for all instead of just because Varys told him to.

I've heard good things about the Borgias so maybe I'll check it out. I'm sure it portrays Catholicism a lot better than GoT portrays religion.

Game of thrones isn't a bad show. It just has a few extremely weak cogs in the system mainly D&D and a few of the writers. Acting is amazing. Set design amazing. Fight choreography amazing (except for that one time). Costumes. etc

I don't think Kit is a bad actor like most people. But Emilia doesn't fit.

As for Michael Bay I never really thought he was that bad. The Rock, Pain and Gain and Bad Boys are great films. Visually his movies look great and he makes an absurd amount of cash despite all the hate. A better analogy directer for GoT would be M Night Shamalan. Started off amazing (Unbreakable is arguably the best superhero movie) but then thought people liked his movies for the wrong reasons (twists for M night/shock deaths/rape for got) and just became a parody of himself.