So what is HBO's strategy on the Jon Snow question?

[Tagganaro]

Here's a though about why they had to "kill" Jon, for now anyways. So we all know the White Walkers are coming, they kind of have to get through somehow maybe they bring the wall down, etc. It would be pretty anticlimatic if they never even got past the wall, don't you think? So if this is the case they are most definitley going to destroy the Night's Watch. If Jon is there with them, knowing the person that he is, he would most definitley fight them to the death. And he would get killed because the White Walkers outnumber the Night's Watch by like a bazzilion. Anyways, I do think he is important and is needed, but he must be somehow temporarily removed from the situation.

I know there are lots of theories out there, and I do think one of them will prove true. At first I was a big fan of Mel burning his body and him coming out of the fire as Azor Ahai, because let's face it that would be pretty awesome and who would not like to see the look on the Night's Watch memeber's faces when that happens. But that would put him right back into the same situation he was in before. Ok, maybe now everyone would follow him because he's Azor Ahai, and maybe he would be able to leave the wall and go out and try to get more troops and support. But realistically he'd probably never actually leave the wall because what if the WW attack, he must stay there and lead and protect. So I really think it will be something else, like the warging. At first I did not like that idea because the soul that is inside the beat slowly fades and it would be like a slow death essentially, but that is if he stays in Ghost permanently. He could just go into Ghost temporarily, and get to Bran that way. And then something will happen to get him out of Ghost and into a body again. Except with this idea he loses his original body, so he would be played by another actor and not Kit, which I think would make a lot of people(myself included) pretty sad. Unless Mel follows Ghost to Bran dragging Jon's body with her, lol :) I do kind of like the idea of him becoming a white walker and us learning more about them that way, maybe they are not so bad, maybe they just seem evil but are really trying to establish world peace :)

Well, the interesting thing about this, is that in the books, GRRM could have had all this without 'For the Watch'. I mean, he had a situation where Jon was leaving the Wall to take the wildlings south to go after Ramsay and "Arya". It could have been really interesting to have the 'hero' of the story do that, and while that's happening the White Walkers attack the Wall and break through. Then you can have Jon dealing with the repercussions once he finds out.

But yes, I still think "end game" here is that the NW gets destroyed in the aftermath of the Ides of Marsh and that Jon or Unjon or whatever gets away from the Wall and goes either North after Bran or South after "Arya". Since I do think the Wall has to fall and that the Others will make their way much farther south, either to at least Winterfell or as Dany's dream indicated, the Trident.

[Katjushka]

It's all kayfabe, anyone who was ever a fan of WWF/WWE will know how this works.

In any case, what will be the point of Davos and Melisandre next season if not to be part of Jon's storyline? They have no function of their own, they are characters that exist to further the arc of others. What do their scenes even look like next season if not to play a part in Jon's resurrection?

Mel: So...

Davos: So?

Mel: Looks like Stannis isn't coming.

Davos: Aye. We'll probably have to do something else now.

Mel: I could burn someone.

Davos: Why?

Mel: Dunno. Something to do, force of habit and all that.

Davos: I could... hmm... make an impassioned case on Stannis' behalf! Oh, right.

Mel: We could have sex.

Davos: Nah, thanks. It just all gets a bit weird afterwards.

Mel: Your loss.

Davos: Well then.

Mel: Yep, well then.

Dorne won't look too bad after a few episodes of the Wall without Jon Snow.

Very much this. The wall needs a primary character, I don't see anyone else appearing there so. It's Jon. And yeah, he might be dead in the beginning of the season but he will still be there for others storylines to focuse on.

Also, comparing Jon and LSH is really not valid. Catelyn was never a primary character and bringing her back does not have the same impact on the story that bringing Jon back will have.

[Le Cygne]

I still don't see the need for them to say he's really dead dead when they could have said any number of things. With or without interviews, no matter what they say, there's going to be buzz, plain and simple. So saying he's "dead dead" doesn't change anything except makes them clear liars when he does come back.

But they didn't really say that. Where did they say, Jon Snow is dead for good, he will not come back in any form whatsoever?

[R4W13Y]

The Dornish dialogue was so bad, I've had to alter my member title. :P

ETA: Wait, I should be a procurer, crap, I'm almost Batfinger. :lmao:

This is random, and I hope you don't think I'm weird, but it just says how much I'm on these boards - but I had a dream that I met you (well, a dream version of you) because you were dating a guy in my grad program. We went to a coffee shop, but I don't drink coffee, so you got really mad at me and left :P

But they didn't really say that. Where did they say, Jon Snow is dead for good, he will not come back in any form whatsoever?

Kit said he's not coming back, the contract renewal reports were wrong, that D&D told him "no resurrection" specifically. So unless he literally turns into a completely different character with a new cast member, those are lies if Kit comes back next season in any form.

They didn't say Jon Snow doesn't come back as like, an Ice Dragon or something crazy like that, but then they wouldn't be lying when they say Kit isn't coming back because they don't need Kit to be an Ice Dragon. So I do concede that they are not lying if Jon Snow comes back in another crazy way that doesn't involve Kit.

[Le Cygne]

Kit said he's not coming back, the contract renewal reports were wrong, that D&D told him "no resurrection" specifically. So unless he literally turns into a completely different character with a new cast member, those are lies if Kit comes back next season in any form.

They didn't say Jon Snow doesn't come back as like, an Ice Dragon or something crazy like that, but then they wouldn't be lying when they say Kit isn't coming back because they don't need Kit to be an Ice Dragon. So I do concede that they are not lying if Jon Snow comes back in another crazy way that doesn't involve Kit.

I'm not talking about Kit, I am talking about Benioff and Weiss. The showrunners.

Where did they say that he's dead for good and not coming back in any form. I'm not seeing that quote.

I'm not defending the way they handled this in any way. I'm saying I don't see where they said this.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

This is random, and I hope you don't think I'm weird, but it just says how much I'm on these boards - but I had a dream that I met you (well, a dream version of you) because you were dating a guy in my grad program. We went to a coffee shop, but I don't drink coffee, so you got really mad at me and left :P

Kit said he's not coming back, the contract renewal reports were wrong, that D&D told him "no resurrection" specifically. So unless he literally turns into a completely different character with a new cast member, those are lies if Kit comes back next season in any form.

They didn't say Jon Snow doesn't come back as like, an Ice Dragon or something crazy like that, but then they wouldn't be lying when they say Kit isn't coming back because they don't need Kit to be an Ice Dragon. So I do concede that they are not lying if Jon Snow comes back in another crazy way that doesn't involve Kit.

Well, I am a coffee freak, a good coffee freak that is, so this is: FARGIN WAR!!! LOL

Then again, more coffee for me, I'm sure we can work something out!! :cool4:

[Cas Stark]

Weiss said dead is dead, the scene is not ambiguious. I don't believe he specifically said, Jon Snow won't be resurrected, though.

[kissdbyfire]

I'm not talking about Kit, I am talking about Benioff and Weiss. The showrunners.

Where did they say that he's dead for good and not coming back in any form. I'm not seeing that quote.

I'm not defending the way they handled this in any way. I'm saying I don't see where they said this.

You mean that their replies are always like, 'dead is dead' in a 'I'm cleverly dodging your question' kinda way? :laugh:

I know what you mean. I haven't seen any quotes like the one you're looking for yet. :dunno:

[lakin1013]

Don't know if anyone has seen this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjkiscr4R4c

[Monette]

Well, the interesting thing about this, is that in the books, GRRM could have had all this without 'For the Watch'. I mean, he had a situation where Jon was leaving the Wall to take the wildlings south to go after Ramsay and "Arya". It could have been really interesting to have the 'hero' of the story do that, and while that's happening the White Walkers attack the Wall and break through. Then you can have Jon dealing with the repercussions once he finds out.

But yes, I still think "end game" here is that the NW gets destroyed in the aftermath of the Ides of Marsh and that Jon or Unjon or whatever gets away from the Wall and goes either North after Bran or South after "Arya". Since I do think the Wall has to fall and that the Others will make their way much farther south, either to at least Winterfell or as Dany's dream indicated, the Trident.

That is true, it could have worked that way as well, but then he would not have experienced the betrayal. I think experiencing it is important for him, makes him hardened, and so is perhapns important to future decisions he makes.

[Narvi]

It's hard to let go of a character I've cared about for 10 plus years. While I don't believe the journey will be the same in the books the end result could be the same. Waste of a character in my mind but they're not asking my opinion. 🐺

[Le Cygne]

Weiss said dead is dead, the scene is not ambiguious. I don't believe he specifically said, Jon Snow won't be resurrected, though.

No, he did not. Nor did Kit, that I'm seeing. The common points seem to be Jon Snow is dead (Weiss, Kit). Jon Snow is not coming back next season that he knows (Kit).

[R4W13Y]

Weiss said dead is dead, the scene is not ambiguious. I don't believe he specifically said, Jon Snow won't be resurrected, though.

I'm not talking about Kit, I am talking about Benioff and Weiss. The showrunners.

Where did they say that he's dead for good and not coming back in any form. I'm not seeing that quote.

I'm not defending the way they handled this in any way. I'm saying I don't see where they said this.

Sorry guys when I say "interviews" and "they" I am referring to Kit, D&D, and Nutter as an entity. I'm taking all the information they provided as a whole. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that.

Even so, Kit said D&D told him no resurrection. D&D didn't say that in an interview though.

[Cas Stark]

Did he say specifically no resurrection or did he say they told him he wouldn't back?

[artihcus022]

Lets undertake a thought experiment. If JS is dead in S6 and S7, what does that mean?

-- It means that if we see the Wall, we'll follow Tormund, Dolorous Edd, Alliser, Olly, Davos and Mel. Now as per the situation, there will be a massacre/purge of Jon Snow loyalists and an attack on the Wildlings by the Mutineers, trying to force them back out of the Wall which will obviously not happen. Meanwhile the White Walkers are still approaching, so eventually they will get through the Wall. Without a Jon Snow to resurrect and a Stannis to serve, Melisandre and Davos will have to take part in the conflict at the Wall, either siding with the Mutineers or the Wildlings.

-- Since Ramsay told Sansa that Jon Snow is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Sansa, Theon, Brienne and Pod will have to head to the Wall and Ramsay will have to chase them since without Sansa his political future is finished, he can't compete with Fat Walda's Baby anymore. So once Sansa and Co. reach the Wall, they will have to take part in the Wildlings versus Mutineers conflicts. Or alternatively, Sansa, Theon, Davos, Mel and Brienne decide to go find Rickon instead because why not? They become the Scooby Gang of the North.

-- Bran has been shelved for Season 5 possibly because they didn't want to waste a CGI budget (Children of the Forest, Bloodraven, Bran's visions) without suitably dramatic stakes. So in S6, Bran, if he's not resurrecting Jon Snow, does what exactly...communicate with Sansa to find Rickon and tell them to "F--k the Night's Watch, they are not important, its up to us (Me, Meera, Hodor, Three-Eyed Raven, Sansa, Davos, Mel, Theon, Brienne, Podrick, Osha, Rickon) to stop the Wall from falling".

So yes, Jon Snow will be resurrected in Season 6, or well, they might as well get rid of the Wall altogether. Remove Davos and Mel too.

-- In practical terms, in the books, Jon Snow will spend time in Ghost as a warg. So that means extra CGI budget for Ghost and maybe a voiceover to convince us that its really Jon Snow in the wolf's body. Not impossible but it would stick out given how they have avoided something that fantastic so far. The show, will have Jon Snow interact with Bran in the Greenseer world, the Astral Plane if you will and together Jon and Bran will get Jon back to his body with an Assist from Mel, Davos (and maybe Sansa) on the ground. So we'll have Kit Harrington still be Jon Snow without taxing Ghost too much, we can build up Bran's plotline to show he's relevant again, and it won't be too taxing on their CGI budget. It also gives them a nice TV arc for characters to do at the Wall.

[Le Cygne]

Sorry guys when I say "interviews" and "they" I am referring to Kit, D&D, and Nutter as an entity. I'm taking all the information they provided as a whole. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that.

Even so, Kit said D&D told him no resurrection. D&D didn't say that in an interview though.

Yes, please provide the "no resurrection" quote because I can't find it. We need the quote, not a paraphrase.

I don't see where Kit said that. And the point is, what matters is what Benioff and Weiss said. They released a statement via their usual channel, Entertainment Weekly/Hibberd.

[R4W13Y]

Did he say specifically no resurrection or did he say they told him he wouldn't back?

Yes, please provide the "no resurrection" quote because I can't find it. We need the quote, not a paraphrase.

Yes I'm trying to find it. Someone posted it in another thread and it was a specific quote from Kit.

[kissdbyfire]

Harington paid tribute to his altruistic alter ego, who was "always trying to do the right thing". "He really was one of the last bastions of goodness left in Westeros," he said, adding in another interview with Entertainment Weekly that showrunners Dan Weiss and David Benioff had told him there would be no resurrection.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-star-kit-harington-on-dramatic-jon-snow-season-5-finale-storyline-10319909.html

[Le Cygne]

Harington paid tribute to his altruistic alter ego, who was "always trying to do the right thing". "He really was one of the last bastions of goodness left in Westeros," he said, adding in another interview with Entertainment Weekly that showrunners Dan Weiss and David Benioff had told him there would be no resurrection.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-star-kit-harington-on-dramatic-jon-snow-season-5-finale-storyline-10319909.html

That's the writer of the Independent article paraphrasing the EW article. That's not a quote.

Here's what Kit said to EW/Hibberd:

This is my understanding of it. I had a sit-down with Dan and David, we did the Tony Soprano walk [letting an actor know they’re being whacked]. And they said, “Look, you’re gone, it’s done.” And as far as the salary thing goes, that angered me when that story came out. I don’t know where it came from, but it was inaccurate in many ways. It’s going to put questions into your head and into fans’ heads that things are not what they are. Quite honestly, I have never been told the future of things in this show, but this is the one time I have. They sat me down and said, “This is how it is.” If anything in the future is not like that, then I don’t know about it – it’s only in David and Dan and George’s heads. But I’ve been told I’m dead. I’m dead. I’m not coming back next season. So that’s all I can tell you, really.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview

And the point is, what Benioff and Weiss said matters, and they didn't say that to EW/Hibberd, either.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead

[Soliloquy]

Well first post \m/.

Bare with me because english is not my native language.

I don't know how many of you guys know but narratology is an inexact sience. And there were some pretty interesting fellows whom dedicated their lives to study and theorize about it.

Two of them Christopher Vogler, and Joseph Campbell have in their theories and studies some facts that can hellp in this and other storytelling cases.

Lets see waht happens in jon snow case

There are several character archetipes present in a story.

1. Hero- someone who is willing to sacrifice his own needs on behalf of others (jon)
   
2. Mentor- all the characters who teach and protect heroes and give them gifts (jeor mormont)
   
3. Threshold Guardian- a menacing face to the hero, but if understood, they can be overcome (being a bastard)
   
4. Herald- a force that brings a new challenge to the hero (wildlings)
   
5. Shapeshifter- characters who change constantly from the hero's point of view (NW)
   
6. Shadow- character who represents the energy of the dark side (WW)
   
7. Ally- someone who travels with the hero through the journey, serving variety of functions (benjen, sam, thormund, )
   
8. Trickster- embodies the energies of mischief and desire for change (ygritte, melisandre?)
   

They both identified several stages the hero usually completes throughout his journey.

In Campbell's theory: http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm

1. The Hero's Journey Outline
   

   The Hero’s Journey is a pattern of narrative identified by the American scholar Joseph Campbell that appears in drama, storytelling, myth, religious ritual, and psychological development. It describes the typical adventure of the archetype known as The Hero, the person who goes out and achieves great deeds on behalf of the group, tribe, or civilization.

   
   

   Its stages are:

   
   

   1. THE ORDINARY WORLD. The hero, uneasy, uncomfortable or unaware, is introduced sympathetically so the audience can identify with the situation or dilemma. The hero is shown against a background of environment, heredity, and personal history. Some kind of polarity in the hero’s life is pulling in different directions and causing stress. (jon before leaving to the wall)

   
   

   2. THE CALL TO ADVENTURE. Something shakes up the situation, either from external pressures or from something rising up from deep within, so the hero must face the beginnings of change. (uneasy realtion with family, being a bastard etc, decision to leave to the wall)

   
   

   3. REFUSAL OF THE CALL. The hero feels the fear of the unknown and tries to turn away from the adventure, however briefly. Alternately, another character may express the uncertainty and danger ahead. (he arrives at the wall and sees it is not quite has he imagined; he is not named a ranger for instance)

   
   

   4. MEETING WITH THE MENTOR. The hero comes across a seasoned traveler of the worlds who gives him or her training, equipment, or advice that will help on the journey. Or the hero reaches within to a source of courage and wisdom. (jeor mormont, mormont giving wisdom, courage and LONGCLAW)

   
   

   5. CROSSING THE THRESHOLD. At the end of Act One, the hero commits to leaving the Ordinary World and entering a new region or condition with unfamiliar rules and values. (going beyond the wall)

   
   

   6. TESTS, ALLIES AND ENEMIES. The hero is tested and sorts out allegiances in the Special World. (beying beyond the wall, returning to CB, everything up untill the moment he decides to save the wildlings)

   
   

   7. APPROACH. The hero and newfound allies prepare for the major challenge in the Special world. (facing the WW in hardhome)

   
   

   8. THE ORDEAL. Near the middle of the story, the hero enters a central space in the Special World and confronts death or faces his or her greatest fear. Out of the moment of death comes a new life. (KILL THE BOY) (another possibility is that this step refers to Ygritte dying)

   
   

   9. THE REWARD. The hero takes possession of the treasure won by facing death. (LIGHTBRINGER, maybe also acknowledging his true parentage, ) (following the second possibility this might be him becoming LC)

   
   

   10. THE ROAD BACK. About three-fourths of the way through the story, the hero is driven to complete the adventure, leaving the Special World to be sure the treasure is brought home. Often a chase scene signals the urgency and danger of the mission. (we're not quite there yet, or Hardome)

   
   

   11. THE RESURRECTION. At the climax, the hero is severely tested once more on the threshold of home. He or she is purified by a last sacrifice, another moment of death and rebirth, but on a higher and more complete level. By the hero’s action, the polarities that were in conflict at the beginning are finally resolved. (THIS) (imo this is the real death scene followed by ressurection a acknolegdement of azor ahai and parentage)

   
   

   12. RETURN WITH THE ELIXIR. The hero returns home or continues the journey, bearing some element of the treasure that has the power to transform the world as the hero has been transformed. There may be celebration, but there is also danger of losing the treasure again.

   
   
   

Of course all is open to interpretation, of course GRRM is known for not following the rules, altough imo he does follow them. ASOIAF or Game of Thrones is not a classic story not because it doesn't follow these directions but because there are som many characters involved that represent the same archetips.

So many arcs simultaneously gives one the impression of imprevisibility.

Sorry for long post, i believe it was important for the topic.