Xie Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Has your unsullied spouse ever watched to the end of a series of survivor (or something similar) even when he dislikes all the remaining contestants? I know I have and I know you try to pick someone to like out of what's left, but it doesn't feel the same as a season where you actually like 1 of the final contestants. In some ways GoTs is like a season of survivor spread over 7 years, though I'm hoping the ending has a bit more meaning. Do survivor viewer numbers drop dramatically when only shitty contestants are left late in a season or not? Do people prefer to root for people they like, or hate on people they don't? Other than saying it depends on the person, I don't know? What's the overall trend? He's not into reality shows, but he has no problem reading and watching dark stuff. He's happily sat through everything from the Sopranos to Sons of Anarchy (can you get much darker than Sons of Anarchy? don't think so). No, the problem is that there's not much of anyone left to care about, if Jon is gone. Whether by poor plotting, bad dialog, or spotty acting, none of the rest of them are interesting to watch, save Tyrion and Varyn (and that really depends on who their scene is with). There are some bright spots (Olenna is the Dowager Countess of GoT, and always good for a chuckle). But overall, it's an epic fantasy, and you're usually kind of trying to figure out why you should care that this world gets saved, and who should do the saving. Even in dark fantasy, whether or not the world should be saved is a valid question. If you reach the point where your audience doesn't think any remaining living character is worth saving the world for... that's not good, and is a prime reason for audience disengagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyanSnow Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Because we all believe Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. If GRRM tested them on that question before signing off, it is safe to say Jon is a very important character. If he is who we think he is, he is not dead and will be back Jon is a very important character. He has been for five books. Picking up on his parentage suggested that they read closely, which GRRM probably thought was important in the people adapting his story. His death could also be important if it makes easier a WW invasion or if it prompts Mel to to try and resurrect him only to wake an ice dragon in the Wall or for any number of other reasons that will only make sense as the series goes on. Because they haven't revealed it, and it would serve no point to be like "Oh there was another Targaryen but he's dead now." Except that Jon's existence as Lyanna's son may have already led Ned to make fateful choices (distancing himself from Robert, fearing for the safety of Cersei's children, etc) or maybe the revelation of a shared relative in Jon somehow brings Bran and Dany together to stop the WW (or again, other possibilities). Ultimately, I do think he is coming back. But the story is unfinished and there are other possible futures. Relying on the idea that he has to come back because he is the promised messiah hero with secret parentage seems to be falling in to the types of fantasy tropes that GRRM likes to subvert (but doesn't always subvert). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 No, the problem is that there's not much of anyone left to care about, if Jon is gone. Whether by poor plotting, bad dialog, or spotty acting, none of the rest of them are interesting to watch, save Tyrion and Varyn (and that really depends on who their scene is with). There are some bright spots (Olenna is the Dowager Countess of GoT, and always good for a chuckle). But overall, it's an epic fantasy, and you're usually kind of trying to figure out why you should care that this world gets saved, and who should do the saving. Even in dark fantasy, whether or not the world should be saved is a valid question. If you reach the point where your audience doesn't think any remaining living character is worth saving the world for... that's not good, and is a prime reason for audience disengagement. Possibly - unless that has been the point all along. Perhaps we are meant to root for seeing the White Walkers cleans the world, rather than any heroic humans defeat them? I mean, that's dark fantasy also, fantasy where the inhuman monsters are ultimately more righteous than any human characters, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJeremiahLouistark Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Opening scene, just as Jon's body is about to be burned, the others penetrate the wall and raise Jon and wipe out the Nights Watch. They march south and take down the Boltons. Eventually Dany flies in on Drogon and burns Jon but his Targ and Stark blood instead of burning change him into the PtwP. He starts slaughtering WW's and as Ice and Fire mounts Rhaegal and tears some shit up. Then takes his rightful place on the throne. Ok ok I know that prob won't happen but it would be cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayerUp.com Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Opening scene, just as Jon's body is about to be burned, the others penetrate the wall and raise Jon and wipe out the Nights Watch. But but but I thought Jon Snow isn't in Season 6 at all remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Steelsong Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 But but but I thought Jon Snow isn't in Season 6 at all remember. But he's not Jon Snow anymore...he's Jon Wright or ColdJon. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midi Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 But he's not Jon Snow anymore...he's Jon Wright or ColdJon. :D Jon Coldhands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Sparrow Little Bird Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I know it might be cliche, but what if Jon's body is burnt and like a phoenix he rises as Jon Targaryen due to the blood magic of killing Shireen. So technically Jon Snow is dead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Here it is: http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Martin-pitch-1.jpg http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Martin-pitck-2.jpg http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Martin-pitch-3.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilli Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Okay, so Jon is ice and fire. If he is paired with Dany in some way, is she just fire?There is something off balance in this theoretical pairing.Dany has to be ice in some way. Any theories about this?If both Jon and Dany are AA, how does that happen?I like the theory I saw on one of the threads that Jon is encased in the Wall and when the Wall comes down, he is reborn as AA, possibly in an ice dragon form.Ideas?For the balance, if Jon is paired with fire Dany, he should also be paired with someone ice like Bran or Arya or Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of Balmora Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 More important to whom? Being this fucking stupid. Sorry to be so frank, but it had to be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Possibly - unless that has been the point all along. Perhaps we are meant to root for seeing the White Walkers cleans the world, rather than any heroic humans defeat them? I mean, that's dark fantasy also, fantasy where the inhuman monsters are ultimately more righteous than any human characters, That isn't the point. I know you want it to be the point, but it isn't the point. The author's problem is he no longer knows when to quit. So, he has made the story darker than he seems to understand and his prime characters more flawed than he seems to realize. So, instead of Meereen being an object lesson in 'not Gondor' where we see our hero learning and failing and something akin to realistic problems, we see our hero fail, fail, fail some more, agree to torture, crucify random people, start taking skim from slavery again...and by the end of Dance, a fair minority of readers are done with her. Tyrion is somewhat less far gone, but him too, I no longer care if he lives or dies, let alone root for him. I am sick of where do whores go, I am sick of no remorse over murder and kinslaying, sick of his self pitying BS. That's two down. Now we come to Jon Snow, our other snowflake, the song of fire and ice, the lost prince, honorable good guy. He also did some stupid things, I have more tolerance for him than Dany, so go easier, but Now he's dead. Going to be re animated by blood magic sacrifice conducted by a rhllor zealot. Nice. Bran is in the tree, Sansa is Sansa and while, me, will back Arya no matter how many people she kills, she's turning into a remorseless emotionless killer. This is all too far. The show has not gone this far for good reason, nobody will watch that BS, even as far as they did go, people got sick of Dany flailing around Meereen not getting anything accomplished and being random. Take out John Snow for good. Seems unlikely for the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 That isn't the point. I know you want it to be the point, but it isn't the point. How do you know it isn't the point? You can't prove it - no-one can until it finishes. And, the way things are evolving, it is looking more and more like it is exactly the point. Everything you have written describes how to the point it is. It's not too far - it is likely the story that is being told. For some reason, many fans just don't seem to want to accept it yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 How do you know it isn't the point? You can't prove it - no-one can until it finishes. And, the way things are evolving, it is looking more and more like it is exactly the point.Everything you have written describes how to the point it is. It's not too far - it is likely the story that is being told. For some reason, many fans just don't seem to want to accept it yet? No I can't prove it, but I know it nevertheless, just like I know he went overboard and alienated the audience more than he intended to and that now he's spinning his wheels caught between ending the story and trying to recreate some wow factor like the red wedding. But, really, he has not written 5 books, where the Others are a looming spector, that hello, even the children of the forest and the giants are fighting against, not just the humans, only to have it all end with everyone dead because the Night King was the good guy. Really, trust me, this won't happen. ETA..there is also nothing in the show to substantiate your theory, and the show says they're ending the same way as the books. The attack at Hardhome looked like a typical zombie attack led by a dark lord, nothing there to indicate he's a good guy. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 See here is the problem with killing Jon and Stannis. It gives the audiance no hero in the north to root for. I don't like show daenerys. SHe reminds of an Amercian politician (not bernie sanders) whose only redeeming quality is the fact she isn't as incapable as book daenerys. Book Daenerys is human. I have grown to respect her character despite the fact her and Stannis should probably both be dead by now. My guess if Jon actually stays dead- Daenerys will become D&D's AA and end up saving the world and the series wil suffer for it. Jon snows story would have gone no where. When people rewatch Stannis's story they will realize how dumb it reallly was. Sansa's story is just the worst thing ever. This is all extremely poor writing. The only half decent story telling has been tyrions, cersie's and Robert Baratheon who died in the first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 No I can't prove it, but I know it nevertheless, just like I know he went overboard and alienated the audience more than he intended to and that now he's spinning his wheels caught between ending the story and trying to recreate some wow factor like the red wedding. But, really, he has not written 5 books, where the Others are a looming spector, that hello, even the children of the forest and the giants are fighting against, not just the humans, only to have it all end with everyone dead because the Night King was the good guy. Really, trust me, this won't happen. The Giants song seems to prove they dislike humans more than the Others. We have no idea what side the CotF are on, if they are on any. He has written 5 books in which the Others are mysterious, not looming spectres. We, as human readers, judge them as the bad guys, because we side with the human POV in the books - and what if that is exactly the plan, knowing that a human reader will instinctively side with a human character and using that against the reader to make your point? ETA..there is also nothing in the show to substantiate your theory, and the show says they're ending the same way as the books. The attack at Hardhome looked like a typical zombie attack led by a dark lord, nothing there to indicate he's a good guy. At all. The Nights King has been nicer to human offspring than most humans in the show have, with Craster's baby. It was otherworldly but it wasn't portrayed as nasty, of malevolent. I don't know what the relationship between the wights and Others is yet - again, no one does, it is still a mystery - it remains entirely possibly that the Others are just trying to clear the human remains from the sanctity of the lands north of the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donaldys I Trumpagar Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Because they haven't revealed it, and it would serve no point to be like "Oh there was another Targaryen but he's dead now."Exactly. A large amount of exposition would literally have been a pointless waste.Of course, the rebuttal to this could be that the *show* never really had that much exposition. Ask 100 unsullied (the vast majority of viewers) who Jon Stark is and 99 of them would say "Ned Stark's bastard." The other wouldn't remember who Ned Stark was.R+L=J is not a show theory, it's a book theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 R+L=J is not a show theory, it's a book theory. However, it seemed D&D were really hinting hard at it this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Exactly. A large amount exposition would literally have been a pointless waste.Of course, the rebuttal to this could be that the *show* never really had that much exposition. Ask 100 unsullied (the vast majority of viewers) who Jon Stark is and 99 of them would say "Ned Stark's bastard." The other wouldn't remember who Ned Stark was.R+L=J is not a show theory, it's a book theory. The show teased R+L=J pretty fucking hard this season. All in the same episode.-Stannis doubting that Ned Stark would really father a bastard-Sansa and LF going to Lyanna's crypt and Sansa saying Rheagar was a kidnapper and a rapist and LF giving her a suspect look-Selmy talking about how nice of guy Rheagar was and how he was so kind to all the people. Put it this way, if you take what's been done in the shows and the books, if you're a betting man the smart bet is on it being true. It's a little more than a crackpot far reaching theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayarts Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Actually, I start not caring anymore if Jon is comes back or not. By now I am just annoyed by the show's poor choices for the finale,and by discussing show-Jon's fate I feel like playing into D&D's stupid cliffhanger plot.I expect an average or bad 6 season after this, so who cares. Jon or no Jon. Bookreaders know that he is not gone for good.The show can do whatever it likes, it went down the drain anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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