Lady Snow88

The Hound.... Love him or hate him?

70 posts in this topic

I like that he's the anti-knight when it comes to cutting through the BS and admitting to what he is, a killer. Other than killing the butcher's boy he hasn't been all that terrible.

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In Sansa's arc his actions do not agree with his words that if you can't protect yourself you need to get out of the way or die. When he says it to Sansa before the battle of the Blackwater in aCoK his own actions contradict that statement. But he was that callous once. The first two times we witness him is through Arya's eyes and Tyrion's eyes in aGoT, twice in the yard. It's one thing for a 12 year old pampered prince to be a sore loser who insults others to avoid another loss. It's another thing for a grown man to encourage it. And he expresses the wish for Bran to not take long about dying and offers to kill Summer for Joffrey, who delights at the idea. Sandor is not pretending to be callous then. He is callous. Since Bran can't get out of the way anymore he must die. And then his first interaction with Robb (heir of WF). Robb beat Joffrey in the first round. Joffrey's insults lead to upping hte ante to live steel, and Robb certainly is not the coward who says 'no' against it. Rodrik Cassel won't have it. And yet, Sandor asks for Robb's age and tells him that he himself already killed someone at 12. 

It certainly makes for a twisted and handicapped personality if an adult competes with children: his remark to Robb makes him compete with a boy; being buddy-buddy with a sadistic 12 year old is also a mental measure tactic. The same idea applies to his initial interactions with Sansa. Would any adult even feel compelled to "instruct" an 11 year old girl about the workings of the world like that? Not that she can't use it, but if some elementary schooler was talking fantasy about unicorns, etc. would you as an adult feel almost personally insulted by it and go out of your way to burst their bubble? It makes Sandor pretty much a mental child in an adult body himself. He reminds me of those near adult boys of 17 who hangs out with the gang of 11-year olds, and derive popularity and superiority out of it. BUt it's even worse with him - he's near 30.

So, he starts out not wise at all imo, but callous, twisted, handicapped in his emotional maturation development and tragic. There's lots of psychological work to be done by him. But yeah, I like him, and I wish him well. Still, I always keep in mind the starting point.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Personally, I don't hate him or love him.  I know that most characters in this series (with the exception, of the top of my head of the obvious psychopaths:  Joffrey, Ramsay and Gregor) are grey but he is perhaps one of the greyest (is that a word??? lol).

What happened to him as a child is absolutely despicable and more so the fact that his father sided with his brother and failed him completely.  Had this not happened it is almost certain that he would be a completely different person.  However, whereas some characters do try to make the most of what is left to them, the way we first encounter Sandor is as someone who really doesn't want to live or cares if anyone else does either.

Yes, the scene in Winterfell doesn't present him in a very good light (and this is not just because it is Tyrion's point of view as the things that he said are there).  In siding up with Joffrey unconditionally, offering to kill Summer and so on he appears really weak and unable to stand up to a mere boy.  Okay, we all know that Cersei won't accept any criticism of her boy but even if he was acting in fear of her he should not have encouraged him.  I agree this was very child-bully behaviour.  To me an example of how sometimes victims become perpetrators.

The other thing we see from his introductory scene is what he says re Bran.  To me this is indicative of the fact that he wished he had died himself after he was burnt, unlike Tyrion who at this stage (and all along until he sort of breaks down after the trial) reiterates that life as a dwarf is shit but better than the alternative (life is full of possibilities blah).  I think George purposely wanted to juxtapose these two characters.  Both have suffered at the hands of family members and both have deformities but one is more gregarious and optimistic than the other.  Not saying one is better than the other, just that their outlooks are almost opposite.

I agree that Sandor can be "all talk" at times.  He seems to enjoy showing the worse part of himself to the world which is not uncommon in people who become bullies as a defence mechanism against a world that, rightly or wrongly, they believe will crash them unless they get in there first.  This is terribly sad in itself.  I feel that George does very well spelling out that this is a bit of a "cover" on Sandor's part by ensuring that we see that he is fiercely loyal and would protect a woman in danger with his life.  

Now, forgive me I cannot recall off hand if he has come out to defend a male in the series yet in this sort of fashion.  The reason I am wondering is because, admirable as this is, to my mind if he is only (of his own volition and not out of duty or coin) prepared to defend women then that would indicate that he really sees them as weaklings, which personally I would find a little insulting (although I am aware that many might not share my sentiment here).  However, I do feel there is tenderness in him, if only he allowed it to come to the surface.  I think we see a slightly improved version of the Hound in his interaction with Arya.  Arya is tougher though (at least on the outside) so they are more on a level and, although he might long for what he perceives as a damsel, I feel (could be wrong) he admires someone like Arya more (hence I commented in another thread that IMHO he would be better suited for Brienne than Sansa).

I totally understand that many women like the protector figure and find it romantic and erotic and I have nothing against it but when I try to imagine romantic interaction with this character I encounter a barrier in my own brain, because of course I can't help as a reader being myself and that is a turn off for me, but hey, each to their own (myself included).

Now, in terms of his outwardly rude and violent character being a threat to a partner I would say no.  I expect that if he ever gets to trust and truly respect someone we could see the hidden and nicer part of his soul.

As for social communication skills, well someone mentioned quite rightly that he very upfront and admirable for not being hypocritical.  This is so but also oftentimes people who say about themselves things like "I call a spade a spade etc" (not a quote from the books just an expression I have come across often in real life) are often giving themselves permission to be as rude as they like, which is not conducive to making friends easily.

So since this thread is about how we ourselves feel about Sandor, not about how good or otherwise he would be for other characters or is in the author's eyes, I would say that he would be my perfect body guard if I ever needed one.  Also probably a great hero in times of environmental catastrophe or something of that ilk.  However, for all that I can admire his chivalry and valor, his abruptness, rudeness, inability to have fun (or yet to be discovered) etc would not make him easy company.  I am also certain that he would dislike my company as much as me his.  I am pretty sociable, chatty and very fun loving and I can guarantee you I would get on his nerves in less than 5 minutes.  So I guess, it would be hard for me to want his company.  If he were real I fear we would probably be the worse possible match ever.

Now, as for his arc, I feel that he will not be redeemed (evil as this sounds) until he kills his undead brother and gets the venom out of his system.  Also, one important moment in his arc so far, to me was the Blackwater.  Here I am going to blame the Imp for his stupidity.  Tyrion is usually super competent and yet (but I guess we can all overlook things) he hadn't taken into account that the person leading the troops was someone he knew was terrified of fire lol  He should have secretly got him out of the way on a different mission of sorts.  However, the result is that now, in the eyes of the realm and possibly his own, he is a coward and a deserter, which can certainly not be good for his self-esteem.

I look forward to see how things develop with him and hope that he manages to kill the UnMountain and begin to pull himself together.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

In Sansa's arc his actions do not agree with his words that if you can't protect yourself you need to get out of the way or die. When he says it to Sansa before the battle of the Blackwater in aCoK his own actions contradict that statement. But he was that callous once. The first two times we witness him is through Arya's eyes and Tyrion's eyes in aGoT, twice in the yard. It's one thing for a 12 year old pampered prince to be a sore loser who insults others to avoid another loss. It's another thing for a grown man to encourage it. And he expresses the wish for Bran to not take long about dying and offers to kill Summer for Joffrey, who delights at the idea. Sandor is not pretending to be callous then. He is callous. Since Bran can't get out of the way anymore he must die. And then his first interaction with Robb (heir of WF). Robb beat Joffrey in the first round. Joffrey's insults lead to upping hte ante to live steel, and Robb certainly is not the coward who says 'no' against it. Rodrik Cassel won't have it. And yet, Sandor asks for Robb's age and tells him that he himself already killed someone at 12. 

It certainly makes for a twisted and handicapped personality if an adult competes with children: his remark to Robb makes him compete with a boy; being buddy-buddy with a sadistic 12 year old is also a mental measure tactic. The same idea applies to his initial interactions with Sansa. Would any adult even feel compelled to "instruct" an 11 year old girl about the workings of the world like that? Not that she can't use it, but if some elementary schooler was talking fantasy about unicorns, etc. would you as an adult feel almost personally insulted by it and go out of your way to burst their bubble? It makes Sandor pretty much a mental child in an adult body himself. He reminds me of those near adult boys of 17 who hangs out with the gang of 11-year olds, and derive popularity and superiority out of it. BUt it's even worse with him - he's near 30.

So, he starts out not wise at all imo, but callous, twisted, handicapped in his emotional maturation development and tragic. There's lots of psychological work to be done by him. But yeah, I like him, and I wish him well. Still, I always keep in mind the starting point.

I disagree with this assessment of the Hound. I do not think he's "competing" with children or even trying to. He's being, as you call him, "callous" and, where I would say a realist and sometimes darkly humorous. He's being realistic with Sansa. She asked him for advice on how to deal with Joffrey - he gave it. 'Smile, smell sweet, be his lady love'. That's not exactly "callousness" is it? Not in my book. And yes, I would and do instruct my preteen in what the real world is like if he asks. Death and gnarly stuff included. He's going to have to live in it, after all.

I find it demonstratively an example of not liking the Hound, if he is "pretty much a mental child." So he's "not wise" and then gets some emotional and mental development? That doesn't sound like the story I've been reading. So no, I don't agree with this assessment at all.

And short of getting his anger under control when he needs to (because sometimes he might not need to and anger has it's place), I think he's fine the way he is. So it is with complete sincerity that I can say I like the Hound, always have, always will.

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1 hour ago, Karmarni said:

I disagree with this assessment of the Hound. I do not think he's "competing" with children or even trying to. He's being, as you call him, "callous" and, where I would say a realist and sometimes darkly humorous. He's being realistic with Sansa. She asked him for advice on how to deal with Joffrey - he gave it. 'Smile, smell sweet, be his lady love'. That's not exactly "callousness" is it? Not in my book. And yes, I would and do instruct my preteen in what the real world is like if he asks. Death and gnarly stuff included. He's going to have to live in it, after all.

I find it demonstratively an example of not liking the Hound, if he is "pretty much a mental child." So he's "not wise" and then gets some emotional and mental development? That doesn't sound like the story I've been reading. So no, I don't agree with this assessment at all.

And short of getting his anger under control when he needs to (because sometimes he might not need to and anger has it's place), I think he's fine the way he is. So it is with complete sincerity that I can say I like the Hound, always have, always will.

I mentioned the moment when he's competing with children: at the START, at INTRODUCTION. That means aGoT, Arya I and aGoT, Tyrion I. And not a book later. We see him go through development right after aGoT, Sansa II. The moment he steps in to protect Loras against Gregor and wins, that's when his arrested development becomes a maturation again. I like him, excatly because he matures from the adolescent stage he seems to be stuck in at the start of the series. He's a bully to children at the start though, asking Robb how he is (14) and then telling him "I killed a man at 12 and it wasn't a blunted sword" (not to mention Robb was jumping and eager for the chance to fight with live steel). That right there is a 28 year old competing with a boy of 14. Which mature adult does that? None that I know. That's teen-boy talk, exactly like Hot Pie to Arya in aCoK. 

He's extremely callous when he says Bran should hurry up dying. That's again the start, how he is introduced, as callous. He doesn't stay callous though, and I never argued in my post that he remained callous. What he does attempt to do though right before the battle, on top of the tower, the evening Sansa starts have cramps that signal the oncoming of her menarche, is to return to that mental space of callousness again, when he tells her "if you can't protect yourself get out of the way or die". But by then he's lying to her and himself then. Heck, he saved Sansa from a mob and even left his own horse Stranger to do it. And I disagree that his ideas are "realistic". He denies even the existence of one true knight. That's as much a false belief as the belief that every knight is a true knight. But when I ask the question, "what adult bursts the fantasy bubble of an 11 year old" I'm referring to part of his speech to Sansa when he escorts her from the Tourney to the Tower. I do not deny that Sansa benefits from it, but I put question marsk behind the motivation which seem to come more from a personal need from him. He doesn't know Sansa. She doesn't know him. It's almost as if her fantasy and pink colored illusions of the world and court are a personal insult to him. Even parents don't usually go about telling their children to stop fantasising and see the horror of the news. Fantasy and stories are part of growing up.

Edited by sweetsunray

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3 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Personally, I don't hate him or love him.  I know that most characters in this series (with the exception, of the top of my head of the obvious psychopaths:  Joffrey, Ramsay and Gregor) are grey but he is perhaps one of the greyest (is that a word??? lol).

What happened to him as a child is absolutely despicable and more so the fact that his father sided with his brother and failed him completely.  Had this not happened it is almost certain that he would be a completely different person.  However, whereas some characters do try to make the most of what is left to them, the way we first encounter Sandor is as someone who really doesn't want to live or cares if anyone else does either.

Yes, the scene in Winterfell doesn't present him in a very good light (and this is not just because it is Tyrion's point of view as the things that he said are there).  In siding up with Joffrey unconditionally, offering to kill Summer and so on he appears really weak and unable to stand up to a mere boy.  Okay, we all know that Cersei won't accept any criticism of her boy but even if he was acting in fear of her he should not have encouraged him.  I agree this was very child-bully behaviour.  To me an example of how sometimes victims become perpetrators.

The other thing we see from his introductory scene is what he says re Bran.  To me this is indicative of the fact that he wished he had died himself after he was burnt, unlike Tyrion who at this stage (and all along until he sort of breaks down after the trial) reiterates that life as a dwarf is shit but better than the alternative (life is full of possibilities blah).  I think George purposely wanted to juxtapose these two characters.  Both have suffered at the hands of family members and both have deformities but one is more gregarious and optimistic than the other.  Not saying one is better than the other, just that their outlooks are almost opposite.

I agree that Sandor can be "all talk" at times.  He seems to enjoy showing the worse part of himself to the world which is not uncommon in people who become bullies as a defence mechanism against a world that, rightly or wrongly, they believe will crash them unless they get in there first.  This is terribly sad in itself.  I feel that George does very well spelling out that this is a bit of a "cover" on Sandor's part by ensuring that we see that he is fiercely loyal and would protect a woman in danger with his life.  

Now, forgive me I cannot recall off hand if he has come out to defend a male in the series yet in this sort of fashion.  The reason I am wondering is because, admirable as this is, to my mind if he is only (of his own volition and not out of duty or coin) prepared to defend women then that would indicate that he really sees them as weaklings, which personally I would find a little insulting (although I am aware that many might not share my sentiment here).  However, I do feel there is tenderness in him, if only he allowed it to come to the surface.  I think we see a slightly improved version of the Hound in his interaction with Arya.  Arya is tougher though (at least on the outside) so they are more on a level and, although he might long for what he perceives as a damsel, I feel (could be wrong) he admires someone like Arya more (hence I commented in another thread that IMHO he would be better suited for Brienne than Sansa).

I totally understand that many women like the protector figure and find it romantic and erotic and I have nothing against it but when I try to imagine romantic interaction with this character I encounter a barrier in my own brain, because of course I can't help as a reader being myself and that is a turn off for me, but hey, each to their own (myself included).

Now, in terms of his outwardly rude and violent character being a threat to a partner I would say no.  I expect that if he ever gets to trust and truly respect someone we could see the hidden and nicer part of his soul.

As for social communication skills, well someone mentioned quite rightly that he very upfront and admirable for not being hypocritical.  This is so but also oftentimes people who say about themselves things like "I call a spade a spade etc" (not a quote from the books just an expression I have come across often in real life) are often giving themselves permission to be as rude as they like, which is not conducive to making friends easily.

So since this thread is about how we ourselves feel about Sandor, not about how good or otherwise he would be for other characters or is in the author's eyes, I would say that he would be my perfect body guard if I ever needed one.  Also probably a great hero in times of environmental catastrophe or something of that ilk.  However, for all that I can admire his chivalry and valor, his abruptness, rudeness, inability to have fun (or yet to be discovered) etc would not make him easy company.  I am also certain that he would dislike my company as much as me his.  I am pretty sociable, chatty and very fun loving and I can guarantee you I would get on his nerves in less than 5 minutes.  So I guess, it would be hard for me to want his company.  If he were real I fear we would probably be the worse possible match ever.

Now, as for his arc, I feel that he will not be redeemed (evil as this sounds) until he kills his undead brother and gets the venom out of his system.  Also, one important moment in his arc so far, to me was the Blackwater.  Here I am going to blame the Imp for his stupidity.  Tyrion is usually super competent and yet (but I guess we can all overlook things) he hadn't taken into account that the person leading the troops was someone he knew was terrified of fire lol  He should have secretly got him out of the way on a different mission of sorts.  However, the result is that now, in the eyes of the realm and possibly his own, he is a coward and a deserter, which can certainly not be good for his self-esteem.

I look forward to see how things develop with him and hope that he manages to kill the UnMountain and begin to pull himself together.

I find his bully-competition remark to Robb regarding "I was 12 when I first killed a man" at the very start in the yard, has an echo in Hot Pie bragging about his first kill, as well as Arya not saying but often thinking "I first killed someone when I was 9". In that sense, Arya is almost a young Sandor but without ever letting go of her idealism. Despite the dog-eat-dog experiences she has, despite the steward's daughter bullying her with namecalling she retains standards of how she and others should help, protect and not harm others. In a way, Arya is a mirror to him. But Arya also always has adults around her to set her straight: for instance, after she beats up Hot Pie (who tried to bully her and bragged about a fantasy first kill), Yoren gives her a thorough lesson and also tells her it's not right to hurt others because her father was killed. And this ties back to Sandor's backstory: he was basically tortured by Gregor (just healing from those burns would have taken agonizing months alone) and nobody spanked Gregor for it and told Gregor his brother and other people aren't the cause of his headache and it's not because he's in pain he should hurt Sandor (though I doubt that wold have set Gregor straight). But jsut someone standing up for Sandor when he was 6 in that way migth at least have given Sandor that beneficial insight. So, he's bullied by his stronger and bigger brother, and he ends up bullying children and dwarfs. And that's the Sandor we are introduced to. 

And yes, he has protected a man: he stepped in between Gregor and Loras at the Tourney, after Gregor slew his own stallion and attacked Loras. Sandor steps in and saves Loras and stops Gregor from killing him. The king orders the end of the fight, and Sandor instantly obeys. Gregor storms off. Loras makes Sandor victor of the tourney and everyone cheers the hero on. Ned even takes note that Sandor looks startled at the response by the people for what he did. He did a heroic thing and it was intantly rewarded and hailed, and that must have felt really really good. No wonder that he was so attached to the prize money. It wasn't just the money or being the winner of the tourney; it was how he won it. For the first time in his life he experienced there are other possibilities, routes on how to deal with life. Mental and emotional doors are opened through that event, and so from where he was stuck, he can start growing/maturing again, and thus evolving. And interestingly, he seems to learn the most from adolescents and prebuscent children: Sansa and Arya.

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I find his bully-competition remark to Robb regarding "I was 12 when I first killed a man" at the very start in the yard, has an echo in Hot Pie bragging about his first kill, as well as Arya not saying but often thinking "I first killed someone when I was 9". In that sense, Arya is almost a young Sandor but without ever letting go of her idealism. Despite the dog-eat-dog experiences she has, despite the steward's daughter bullying her with namecalling she retains standards of how she and others should help, protect and not harm others. In a way, Arya is a mirror to him. But Arya also always has adults around her to set her straight: for instance, after she beats up Hot Pie (who tried to bully her and bragged about a fantasy first kill), Yoren gives her a thorough lesson and also tells her it's not right to hurt others because her father was killed. And this ties back to Sandor's backstory: he was basically tortured by Gregor (just healing from those burns would have taken agonizing months alone) and nobody spanked Gregor for it and told Gregor his brother and other people aren't the cause of his headache and it's not because he's in pain he should hurt Sandor (though I doubt that wold have set Gregor straight). But jsut someone standing up for Sandor when he was 6 in that way migth at least have given Sandor that beneficial insight. So, he's bullied by his stronger and bigger brother, and he ends up bullying children and dwarfs. And that's the Sandor we are introduced to. 

And yes, he has protected a man: he stepped in between Gregor and Loras at the Tourney, after Gregor slew his own stallion and attacked Loras. Sandor steps in and saves Loras and stops Gregor from killing him. The king orders the end of the fight, and Sandor instantly obeys. Gregor storms off. Loras makes Sandor victor of the tourney and everyone cheers the hero on. Ned even takes note that Sandor looks startled at the response by the people for what he did. He did a heroic thing and it was intantly rewarded and hailed, and that must have felt really really good. No wonder that he was so attached to the prize money. It wasn't just the money or being the winner of the tourney; it was how he won it. For the first time in his life he experienced there are other possibilities, routes on how to deal with life. Mental and emotional doors are opened through that event, and so from where he was stuck, he can start growing/maturing again, and thus evolving. And interestingly, he seems to learn the most from adolescents and prebuscent children: Sansa and Arya.

I agree with what you say about what a terrible, terrible parenting he had received.  In fact I find that this is an incredibly recurrent theme in the series.  It seems as if, out of the main character families, only the Starks got it remotely right lol, well probably also the Tyrrells and some others but there are so many appalling examples but this is by far the worse.  Anyhow, got to go to the shop so can't expand much right now.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Sandor Clegane?  A great character who has not often shown great character (but I think he's changing)!;)

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On 1/21/2016 at 5:52 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree with what you say about what a terrible, terrible parenting he had received.  In fact I find that this is an incredibly recurrent theme in the series.  It seems as if, out of the main character families, only the Starks got it remotely right lol, well probably also the Tyrrells and some others but there are so many appalling examples but this is by far the worse.  Anyhow, got to go to the shop so can't expand much right now.

You say that the Starks got it right, however I disagree and think they could have used someone like Sandor to teach them of the evils of Westeros, including Politics, cruelty etc. I think that the Starks were raised almost in a bubble which bursts at the start of AGoT. 

As for the hound himself - you have to love him and his incredible realism. I think the explanations above of his arrested development and maturing are great, but I would add that he probably feels like more of a parent than "protector of weak females". It is curious that he only protects females - Loras not included as there is probably always an urge for him to trade blows with his brother. I think that because of their 'bubble', he feels the need to teach the Stark children his realism that I love so much.

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I adore him. That's all I have to say at the current moment. The reason why I enjoyed Sansa's chapter so much in this book is partly due to him. And partly due to the tragic circumstances a young girl is being forced to survive in, building more inner strength each day and striving to be a good person regardless of her current situation.

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Just a question...

Spoiler

Isn't there an idea that the Hound actually did not kill Mycah?

The few clues I remember are that while Kingsguard (?) are out looking for Mycah, 1) there are a ton of them in the woods and, 2) they cause a lot of trouble or there is some skirmish- essentially the Kingguard kill Mycah but it happens that Sandor brings him back in the cloak. Sandor detests the "knights" in the Kingsguard and probably had a fight with them about Mycah. Then with the BWB under the Hollow Hill the Hound cannot remember Mycah or killing him, and when he "admits" it to Arya later it is only because he is trying to goad her into giving him mercy (killing him) where he says lots of mean things then. And then Arya realizes that she leaves the Hound's name off of her list and doesn't realize why (he is innocent of that murder).

Anybody else with this idea?

All that he admits to and his outward meaness towards Sansa are to further his image as a bad, tough guy. He didn't kill Joffery, he couldn't because he would have been slaughtered just attempting such a thing. But the little he does for Sansa here and there actually helps Sansa survive Joffery. Same with Arya, He teaches her and protects her. He is actually rather good with kids it seems ^_^ He had a pretty shitty life beginning and an asshole older brother to try and survive. And when he did survive Gregor, he left home and has never, ever gone back.

 

Edited by The Fattest Leech
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Love him. And Stranger, too. :)

On 1/20/2016 at 11:30 AM, Karmarni said:

<snip>

Agree with all your points. Sandorspeak is a thing. You can't take what he says literally, often what he means is the opposite of his words, but there are lots of textual clues to guide you.

Also it's easy to refute the things the poster above who took everything literally and out of context got wrong, he was remembering what happened to him as a child in every instance.

What is really "callous" is for a reader to dismiss his suffering. The character is written sympathetically for a reason. The author wants you to get to know him, and to do so, you must look beneath his words.

He was feeling great empathy for Bran, remembering his own suffering. That was about mercy. With Robb, he wanted him to be able to defend himself, that's what he had to do when he was his age.

As for Sansa, he's showing great empathy, too. He's helping her to survive, and if you read her chapters closely, she takes in everything he says, and he means a lot to her. She understands.

And when he said protect yourself or get out of the way, he's looking at the fire, and reliving what happened to him, and what he had to do. And keep in mind, he had just risked his life to protect helpless Sansa.

So look beneath his words, and remember what happened to him, because he can't forget. He's trying to help others, in his own way. He's doing a very adult thing here, showing empathy.

Also people don't change via some sort of switch flipping, it doesn't work that way. There are hints he's been growing and evolving all along. And then there was a special connection with Sansa.

Edited by Le Cygne

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1 hour ago, of man and wolf said:

Dude chopped up the butchers boy. Not a great guy.

He did what he have to do.

Edited by The Arthur Smith

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On 3/4/2016 at 0:42 AM, The Arthur Smith said:

He did what he have to do.

Nah he took orders from a coward. Speaks to his character.

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6 hours ago, of man and wolf said:

Nah he took orders from a coward. Speaks to his character.

You know. if there's anybody who is in the Hound's shoe, chances that they will still have to obey Joffrey. So if there's anyone to blame and hate on, it's Joffrey.

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6 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

You know. if there's anybody who is in the Hound's shoe, chances that they will still have to obey Joffrey. So if there's anyone to blame and hate on, it's Joffrey.

Interesting comparison e,g with Jaime-Aerys or Selmy-Aerys because this King and his guard. They obeyed commands but still had really terrible feeling about that. Its difficult to judge this kind of things really...

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2 hours ago, The.Dragon.Prince said:

Interesting comparison e,g with Jaime-Aerys or Selmy-Aerys because this King and his guard. They obeyed commands but still had really terrible feeling about that. Its difficult to judge this kind of things really...

The one in command are usually the fault in this case. Yes, their kingsguards carry out the King's will, but that's their duty. Though the point of their morality and view toward the king's decision is not the case here, the point is who's mainly the blame. Like Joffrey's abuse on Sansa. Joffrey ordered Meryn Trant and Boros Blount to beat Sansa, but does that mean Meryn and Boros were equally fault as Joffrey? Well, we don't exactly know what Meryn and Boros were thinking at that time nor what are their morals, but they only done it by Joffrey's command. If they refused to obey Joffrey's command, then they will be executed. It's the equivalent of killing someone by proxy. Like someone hired a Faceless Man to kill. Does that mean the Faceless Man who killed the person they were ordered to kill is guilty as the person who hired him? No because the Faceless Man is merely doing his job.

Edited by The Arthur Smith

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"Doing your duty" and "Simply doing your job" do not make you exempt from blame. If that was the case then the Nazis were fine, it was just Hitler who was bad. 

Given that, I still think that in a world like Westeros where it's difficult to have a trade or profession, you can hardly blame Sandor for making use of his talents - being a mean, heartless warrior. He clearly does not enjoy cruelty though.

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On 7. března 2016 at 11:09 PM, The Arthur Smith said:

The one in command are usually the fault in this case. Yes, their kingsguards carry out the King's will, but that's their duty. Though the point of their morality and view toward the king's decision is not the case here, the point is who's mainly the blame. Like Joffrey's abuse on Sansa. Joffrey ordered Meryn Trant and Boros Blount to beat Sansa, but does that mean Meryn and Boros were equally fault as Joffrey? Well, we don't exactly know what Meryn and Boros were thinking at that time nor what are their morals, but they only done it by Joffrey's command. If they refused to obey Joffrey's command, then they will be executed. It's the equivalent of killing someone by proxy. Like someone hired a Faceless Man to kill. Does that mean the Faceless Man who killed the person they were ordered to kill is guilty as the person who hired him? No because the Faceless Man is merely doing his job.

You will get some answers on Kingsguard and even Faceless men, I think you will enjoy!

on the topic: I dont have as a clear opinion as you.

Edited by The.Dragon.Prince

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