Lady Snow88

The Hound.... Love him or hate him?

70 posts in this topic

Rather than loving him himself, I think I love Sandor's literary function in the story. He's a wonderful foil for both Sansa and Gregor.

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I meant to add this earlier but it got away from me until another post on Mycah just started earlier.

Spoiler

To restate what I mentioned earlier in this thread, now with a little backing, I do not think it was the Hound that killed Mycah.

Jeyne gossips to Arya and Sansa at how the Hound cut Mycah up into so many little bits that his butcher father thought Mycah';s body was a pig. This is a result of gossip because Ned saw Mycah being carried back in on Sandor's horse and Mycah had a huge gash from shoulder to waist. Sandor's method of killing was in the heart, not a huge cut from stem to stern. He teaches this to Arya, "That's where the heart is, girl. That's how you kill a man."

In regards to Sandor, I don't think it was him that actually killed Mycah. There were many kingsguards out in the woods who had been causing a raucous and hunting. We all know of "Sandor Speak". He does that almost every time he opens his mouth. He says things that are either taken the wrong way, or meant to inflame the asker because he has his image to control. What he tells Ned about killing Mycah is the same as he tells Arya later and he only does it to make people mad to get what he wants in each scenario.

True, he is not a warm and fuzzy guy, but he is actually one hell of a good babysitter... just ask Arya and Sansa. At one point the hound stops Arya from going tooooo crazy during a kill. He is teaching her as he taught Sansa how to handle and survive living with Joffery in King's Landing.

During the trial under the hill, Sandor comes out the victor... he was judged by the gods and found innocent.

We have this:

Arya squirted past Greenbeard so fast he never saw her. "You are a murderer!" she screamed. "You killed Mycah, don't say you never did. You murdered him!"
The Hound stared at her with no flicker of recognition. "And who was this Mycah, boy?"
 
And then he just shrugs and repeats what has been repeated because there is no other story:
The big man shrugged. "I was Joffrey's sworn shield. The butcher's boy attacked a prince of the blood."
 
Then later, Arya realized that she had been leaving the Hound's name off of her nightly death list prayer:
She had left his name [the hound] out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like.
 
And later when Arya leaves the Hound to die he starts crying (of all things for a coldblooded killer to do???) and forgets Mycah's name. The Hound wants to die right here and tells his lie again to incite Arya into mad anger so she kills him, but she decides it is not his time and leaves him:
"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . ."
"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."
 
Arya, or Mercy in later chapters, will be the deciding factor of who lives or dies (based on Norse mythology). She chose for him not to die because he is innocent and he has more to do.
 
Edited by The Fattest Leech
SPOILER TAGS

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On 07/03/2016 at 0:37 PM, The Arthur Smith said:

You know. if there's anybody who is in the Hound's shoe, chances that they will still have to obey Joffrey. So if there's anyone to blame and hate on, it's Joffrey.

I certainly agree with this.  I don't think anyone at all, with the exception perhaps of Robert, Cersei or Tywin could have possibly denied anything to Joffrey and keep their heads

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Sandor has been abused his entire life. His father covered up one of the most disgusting things acts I've ever heard and no matter what that will take an immense toll on your view of how the world works. He becomes close to the Lannisters who show him ( for lack of another word) and they make him the Sworn Sward of the heir to the throne, this is a prestigious honour, although it is for the one of the most horrific, psychotic sadistical people in all of Westeros. That being said he would have done anything to please the only people that has held him in high regard. This ends when Sandor realizes that the Lannisters view him as nothing but and expandible piece in there minds when he is commanded to lead him and his men on what essentially a suicide mission " FUCK THE CITY AND FUCK THE KING". In every instance where he has been able to choose his actions he has made honorable decisions. Sure people bring up horrible things hes done, but those actions were commanded by his adopted family, the Lannisters. my last point is hie the way he acts after he commits horrendous crimes. When i was younger i had a hot temper. I'm also a pretty big guy and from time to time i would get into some fights ( don't wanna be a dick but I usually won). That's not my point though. After these fights i would loose sleep and go into a little depression in private. When i was with others  though it was a different scenario. I would boast and put on the whole macho rutine all the while inside i felt horrible. i feel Sandor Clegane feels the same except magnified 1000 times.

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On 3/17/2016 at 0:26 AM, Wild _Rover said:

Sandor has been abused his entire life. His father covered up one of the most disgusting things acts I've ever heard and no matter what that will take an immense toll on your view of how the world works. He becomes close to the Lannisters who show him ( for lack of another word) and they make him the Sworn Sward of the heir to the throne, this is a prestigious honour, although it is for the one of the most horrific, psychotic sadistical people in all of Westeros. That being said he would have done anything to please the only people that has held him in high regard. This ends when Sandor realizes that the Lannisters view him as nothing but and expandible piece in there minds when he is commanded to lead him and his men on what essentially a suicide mission " FUCK THE CITY AND FUCK THE KING". In every instance where he has been able to choose his actions he has made honorable decisions. Sure people bring up horrible things hes done, but those actions were commanded by his adopted family, the Lannisters. my last point is hie the way he acts after he commits horrendous crimes. When i was younger i had a hot temper. I'm also a pretty big guy and from time to time i would get into some fights ( don't wanna be a dick but I usually won). That's not my point though. After these fights i would loose sleep and go into a little depression in private. When i was with others  though it was a different scenario. I would boast and put on the whole macho rutine all the while inside i felt horrible. i feel Sandor Clegane feels the same except magnified 1000 times.

:agree: And Sandor

 

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Edited by The Fattest Leech
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On 17. března 2016 at 5:51 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

:agree: And Sandor dying and being "reborn" on the QI is not anoth beauty...

Take those links to spoiler tags, we are not after ADWD here ;)

Edited by The.Dragon.Prince

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All love from me.  To go through what he has and come without without a totally soured heart is amazing

Edited by GrapefruitPerrier

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14 minutes ago, The.Dragon.Prince said:

Take those links to spoiler tags, we are not after ADWD here ;)

Fixed it. That was my bad. Don't know how I did that wrong. :blink: However, now that it is fixed it still shows up in my quote in your message so I guess you have to ~snip~ that too. :drunk:

Oh, and thank you for letting me know. I'd hate to be that ass that ruins it for everyone else. :cheers:

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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On 10 marca 2016 at 4:54 PM, AerionBrightflameII said:

Love him. Tough son of a bitch.


 

This.

And falling for 12-year old girls when being ~27, not healthy. 
 

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On 4/12/2016 at 0:00 AM, Tianzi said:

This.

And falling for 12-year old girls when being ~27, not healthy. 
 

When you put it that way... :blink:

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I don't think Sandor felt any physical attraction to Sansa - he had endless opportunities to grope her or make her emotionally dependent on him, but he never did. In fact in most of their scenes he's either trying to frighten her away or get her covered up more.

I think he loves her because she reminds him of his lost sister, because of Lady (he loves dogs), because they both have to deal with Joffrey,  & because she got very close to assassinating Joffrey which is a big deal for an elite bodyguard.

Later on, things begin to change maybe. 

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I must say he is really creepy...

i can't say ...got really mixed feelings for the Hound( he's so bitter...he cannot help that because of his past with Gregor)

 

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On 1/20/2016 at 8:30 AM, Karmarni said:

I disagree with this assessment of the Hound. I do not think he's "competing" with children or even trying to. He's being, as you call him, "callous" and, where I would say a realist and sometimes darkly humorous. He's being realistic with Sansa. She asked him for advice on how to deal with Joffrey - he gave it. 'Smile, smell sweet, be his lady love'. That's not exactly "callousness" is it? Not in my book. And yes, I would and do instruct my preteen in what the real world is like if he asks. Death and gnarly stuff included. He's going to have to live in it, after all.

~~~~snip of more great stuff~~~~

 

On 3/2/2016 at 6:10 AM, Arya, Queen of the North said:

I adore him. That's all I have to say at the current moment. The reason why I enjoyed Sansa's chapter so much in this book is partly due to him. And partly due to the tragic circumstances a young girl is being forced to survive in, building more inner strength each day and striving to be a good person regardless of her current situation.

 

On 3/2/2016 at 3:54 PM, Le Cygne said:

Love him. And Stranger, too. :)

Agree with all your points. Sandorspeak is a thing. You can't take what he says literally, often what he means is the opposite of his words, but there are lots of textual clues to guide you.

Also it's easy to refute the things the poster above who took everything literally and out of context got wrong, he was remembering what happened to him a child in every instance.

What is really "callous" is for a reader to dismiss his suffering. The character is written sympathetically for a reason. The author wants you to get to know him, and to do so, you must look beneath his words.  ~~~~snip~~~~

Sandor is a complex character, not the least bit simple.  To dismiss him to a 'mental child' is truly underrating and not understanding the character.   Miss a lot of the story that way.

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On 3/2/2016 at 2:02 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Just a question...

  Reveal hidden contents

Isn't there an idea that the Hound actually did not kill Mycah?

The few clues I remember are that while Kingsguard (?) are out looking for Mycah, 1) there are a ton of them in the woods and, 2) they cause a lot of trouble or there is some skirmish- essentially the Kingguard kill Mycah but it happens that Sandor brings him back in the cloak. Sandor detests the "knights" in the Kingsguard and probably had a fight with them about Mycah. Then with the BWB under the Hollow Hill the Hound cannot remember Mycah or killing him, and when he "admits" it to Arya later it is only because he is trying to goad her into giving him mercy (killing him) where he says lots of mean things then. And then Arya realizes that she leaves the Hound's name off of her list and doesn't realize why (he is innocent of that murder).

Anybody else with this idea?

All that he admits to and his outward meaness towards Sansa are to further his image as a bad, tough guy. He didn't kill Joffery, he couldn't because he would have been slaughtered just attempting such a thing. But the little he does for Sansa here and there actually helps Sansa survive Joffery. Same with Arya, He teaches her and protects her. He is actually rather good with kids it seems ^_^ He had a pretty shitty life beginning and an asshole older brother to try and survive. And when he did survive Gregor, he left home and has never, ever gone back.

 

Never heard this before and doubt it's true, but like it anyway!   :)

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On 3/6/2016 at 4:37 AM, The Arthur Smith said:

You know. if there's anybody who is in the Hound's shoe, chances that they will still have to obey Joffrey. So if there's anyone to blame and hate on, it's Joffrey.

Not just Joff, Cersei as well.  Ned told Arya to hate the Hound and 'the woman he serves' so he had to answer to Cersei as well.  He didn't bring the body back until after the children had been questioned, so he didn't know there was another story other than 'Joff was attacked by Arya, Mycha and Nym'.

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On 3/10/2016 at 8:24 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I meant to add this earlier but it got away from me until another post on Mycah just started earlier.

  Hide contents

To restate what I mentioned earlier in this thread, now with a little backing, I do not think it was the Hound that killed Mycah.

Jeyne gossips to Arya and Sansa at how the Hound cut Mycah up into so many little bits that his butcher father thought Mycah';s body was a pig. This is a result of gossip because Ned saw Mycah being carried back in on Sandor's horse and Mycah had a huge gash from shoulder to waist. Sandor's method of killing was in the heart, not a huge cut from stem to stern. He teaches this to Arya, "That's where the heart is, girl. That's how you kill a man."

In regards to Sandor, I don't think it was him that actually killed Mycah. There were many kingsguards out in the woods who had been causing a raucous and hunting. We all know of "Sandor Speak". He does that almost every time he opens his mouth. He says things that are either taken the wrong way, or meant to inflame the asker because he has his image to control. What he tells Ned about killing Mycah is the same as he tells Arya later and he only does it to make people mad to get what he wants in each scenario.

True, he is not a warm and fuzzy guy, but he is actually one hell of a good babysitter... just ask Arya and Sansa. At one point the hound stops Arya from going tooooo crazy during a kill. He is teaching her as he taught Sansa how to handle and survive living with Joffery in King's Landing.

During the trial under the hill, Sandor comes out the victor... he was judged by the gods and found innocent.

We have this:

Arya squirted past Greenbeard so fast he never saw her. "You are a murderer!" she screamed. "You killed Mycah, don't say you never did. You murdered him!"
The Hound stared at her with no flicker of recognition. "And who was this Mycah, boy?"
 
And then he just shrugs and repeats what has been repeated because there is no other story:
The big man shrugged. "I was Joffrey's sworn shield. The butcher's boy attacked a prince of the blood."
 
Then later, Arya realized that she had been leaving the Hound's name off of her nightly death list prayer:
She had left his name [the hound] out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like.
 
And later when Arya leaves the Hound to die he starts crying (of all things for a coldblooded killer to do???) and forgets Mycah's name. The Hound wants to die right here and tells his lie again to incite Arya into mad anger so she kills him, but she decides it is not his time and leaves him:
"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . ."
"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."
 
Arya, or Mercy in later chapters, will be the deciding factor of who lives or dies (based on Norse mythology). She chose for him not to die because he is innocent and he has more to do.
 

Um, it was noted that Sandor had cut down others with the sword across the body like Mycha's.  I can't remember where, but it's in there somewhere.

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if Stannis ever brought  his daughter to King's Landing when he was in small council, I could see The Hound not being a jerk to her(he did got along with Myrcella).He might even identified with her because both were disfigured by circumstances beyond their    control.

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On 12/04/2016 at 0:00 AM, Tianzi said:

This.

And falling for 12-year old girls when being ~27, not healthy. 
 

I have tried, time and time again to emphasise that the world that Martin is showing us is not our own, with our own code of morals and in the 21st century; this is a fantasy based some place and time else.   Now, to me, to fancy is not to "sin" in any event.  If you fancy an underage person and take action, then that is a crime (in our society at least), if you do not act upon it: it is not!  Sandor certainly never acted upon anything of the kind on the books so far... Okay, you called it "unhealthy" not "illegal", granted but how about a 12 year old girl rooting for one of her teachers, hell I've done It! (the rooting, not the action lol), this is human hormons and I think George does a great job with them.  Also, let's take into account what was "normal" or "customary" at the setting of the story.  I was married to an archaologist academic and trust me that is one of the first things I learnt from him when judging historial fic lol; okay this is a fantasy but one with a very feudal feeling... a place where most (if not all) of us would have had different aims and ambitions and morals than those we hold today in our own historical and personal setting...  The characters and their motivations in the books and show have to reflect the author's wolrd, not our own, or else the books/show are flawed.  Elsewise, how could an author ever show us their world if he/she had to adhere to our today's values in the characterisation???

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 16/03/2016 at 4:26 AM, Wild _Rover said:

Sandor has been abused his entire life. His father covered up one of the most disgusting things acts I've ever heard and no matter what that will take an immense toll on your view of how the world works. He becomes close to the Lannisters who show him ( for lack of another word) and they make him the Sworn Sward of the heir to the throne, this is a prestigious honour, although it is for the one of the most horrific, psychotic sadistical people in all of Westeros. That being said he would have done anything to please the only people that has held him in high regard. This ends when Sandor realizes that the Lannisters view him as nothing but and expandible piece in there minds when he is commanded to lead him and his men on what essentially a suicide mission " FUCK THE CITY AND FUCK THE KING". In every instance where he has been able to choose his actions he has made honorable decisions. Sure people bring up horrible things hes done, but those actions were commanded by his adopted family, the Lannisters. my last point is hie the way he acts after he commits horrendous crimes. When i was younger i had a hot temper. I'm also a pretty big guy and from time to time i would get into some fights ( don't wanna be a dick but I usually won). That's not my point though. After these fights i would loose sleep and go into a little depression in private. When i was with others  though it was a different scenario. I would boast and put on the whole macho rutine all the while inside i felt horrible. i feel Sandor Clegane feels the same except magnified 1000 times.

First of all, thank you sooo much for sharing your personal experiences with us, truly appreciated from my heart :) now, yes, totally agree with what you are saying but will add that Tyrion was very short-sighted.  lol I nearly run away from this forum because my insane love for Tyrion hasn't always been received well lol (all in good humour) but I can see his shortcomings too lol.   However, on the Sandor Blackwater episode I am going to blame my dearest Ty for it.   Okay, to be fair not sure what I would have done in Tyrion's position but it seems to me that, both in books and show, our super IQ guy forgot a vital clue:  the guy in charge: Sandor (okay, blah, your sister's guy) hates fire duh!!!  Personally, I would have posted Sandor to the Moon with an excuse or something just for the duration of the battle (given that I was to use wildfyre lol) but hey, I can see how under so much pressure Ty overlooked it completely lol  Bad, bad mistake and not Sandor's fault in any way; Tyrion's if any but not with malice....

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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