[Spoilers]The fate of Stannis

[Follmann]

Show!Stannis is dead.

On the other hand, I just remembered when George said he was considering a new twist that the show couldn't possibly replicate due to the state of things. Maybe, just maybe, it will involve Stannis and he will live a lot more? We can dream.

[aucp3]

Book stannis is never about him being Azor Ahai and he isn't a blind religious fanatic. And that is why stannis books fans are pissed. He goes along with melisandre and some of her questionable acts, not because he believes strongly about the lord of light et al, but because he thinks melisandre's magic is powerful and useful.

A clear distinction between stannis on the show and books, is stannis never burns or kills anyone because of religious reasons! he only lets melisandre burn people he has already sentenced to death for secular reasons, namely treason.

I m not surprised you enjoyed stannis' arc on the show given your selection of profile pic. You probably think stannis' main purpose in the story is a cautionary tale about religion, while dany is supposed to conquer all and win the game.

I know Stannis from the books isn't a blind follower. It's more Selyse and her family who are the blind followers. It's obvious from the show that Stannis isn't a blind follower either. He's reluctant at best, BUT, he goes forward because he believes he should rule and Melissandre's reading of the flames and other things have had a 50/50 success rate so, "maybe". He wants to believe he's Azor Ahai as well in that aspect.

I also know Stannis didn't personally burn people. But saying "oh, he just allowed others to do it" is just plain... silly. He's still culpable in the action. He didn't technically burn Shireen in the show. And part of the "treason" in the books, is that they won't submit in one way or the other to his claim and to R'hllor (Mellisandre whispering about). Culpable.

And please, this is a fictional story. You know absolutely nothing about what my profile picture means. I don't care who or think anyone will "win" the game and I think that's the entire point of this story George is trying to tell. Every "main" character in this story will lose a sacrifice great things in the name of power, so much so that at the end of the day it won't even feel like it was worth it. Surely, you should realize that by now.

[Stag_legion]

I know Stannis from the books isn't a blind follower. It's more Selyse and her family who are the blind followers. It's obvious from the show that Stannis isn't a blind follower either. He's reluctant at best, BUT, he goes forward because he believes he should rule and Melissandre's reading of the flames and other things have had a 50/50 success rate so, "maybe". He wants to believe he's Azor Ahai as well in that aspect.

I also know Stannis didn't personally burn people. But saying "oh, he just allowed others to do it" is just plain... silly. He's still culpable in the action. He didn't technically burn Shireen in the show. And part of the "treason" in the books, is that they won't submit in one way or the other to his claim and to R'hllor (Mellisandre whispering about). Culpable.

And please, this is a fictional story. You know absolutely nothing about what my profile picture means. I don't care who or think anyone will "win" the game and I think that's the entire point of this story George is trying to tell. Every "main" character in this story will lose a sacrifice great things in the name of power, so much so that at the end of the day it won't even feel like it was worth it. Surely, you should realize that by now.

I agree stannis allowing the burnings means he's responsible as well, but in the books he has never allowed a burning simply cause someone refused to convert to R'hllor religion. I agree stannis is a harsh man, Burning is a terrible form of torture, even for people who deserve death, its very inhumane, still I think aside from that stannis is a great candidate for leadership in ASOIAF and he would be a great king, especially in the current circumstances.

[Stag_legion]

Lmao it's always a Stannis vs Dany thing around here. Yeah, Stannis never burns anybody for religious reasons, but I wouldn't say that he doesn't buy Mel's prophecies.

Certainly seems like he buys into the Azor Ahai thing if we go by this.

I think its more like he would like to be Azor Ahai as he's always wanted to be appreciated and being the ultimate savior would be the greatest way to be appreciated, but I think he's plenty skeptical about actually being Azor Ahai.

[acosta]

He's the leader you need when you're fighting a war, but he's gonna run up on the same problem he ran up on in the show, the same thing Renly told him back in the day. Nobody likes him and only fanatics follow him. I know the whole Varys talking about how the worst thing possible would be to have a blood magic guy on the throne is show invention, but I don't think it's an exaggeration of how people actually feel about Stannis. It's completely unfair. He strikes me as the one guy who honestly cared about the land and the people and he wasn't doing this all just for personal glory or his house name, but because he believed the world would perish with anyone else on the throne. But even unfair, that is how people feel about him. You need to have the people believe in you at least a little bit, even in a monarchy. With how powerful the Faith has become especially, if Stannis actually took the throne, it'd be a religious war bloodfest.

[Stag_legion]

He's the leader you need when you're fighting a war, but he's gonna run up on the same problem he ran up on in the show, the same thing Renly told him back in the day. Nobody likes him and only fanatics follow him. I know the whole Varys talking about how the worst thing possible would be to have a blood magic guy on the throne is show invention, but I don't think it's an exaggeration of how people actually feel about Stannis. It's completely unfair. He strikes me as the one guy who honestly cared about the land and the people and he wasn't doing this all just for personal glory or his house name, but because he believed the world would perish with anyone else on the throne. But even unfair, that is how people feel about him. You need to have the people believe in you at least a little bit, even in a monarchy. With how powerful the Faith has become especially, if Stannis actually took the throne, it'd be a religious war bloodfest.

Well going off the last episode of the show, I have a hard time believing stannis would continue with melisandre and her religion after she abandoned him. Even in the books it felt like stannis was trying to rely on melisandre less and if melisandre does burn shireen as D&D suggested, he definitely isn't going to be on mel's bandwagon and he won't be championing her religion anymore.

[rayarts]

Stannis is dead for good. It was predicted when Shireen burnt with a wooden Stag in her hand - that meant: Burning Shireen will lead to the absolute end of House Baratheon.

And thats it.

It is just dramatic and unnerving bs, that they did not show Stannis die, he (and we) deserved at least that much, but it was yet another way to cliffhang for Ding&Dong.

HOUSE BARATHEON IS EXTINCT

[High Sparrow Little Bird]

Except Gendry and a shadow baby rowing around Planetos

Stannis is dead for good. It was predicted when Shireen burnt with a wooden Stag in her hand - that meant: Burning Shireen will lead to the absolute end of House Baratheon.

And thats it.

It is just dramatic and unnerving bs, that they did not show Stannis die, he (and we) deserved at least that much, but it was yet another way to cliffhang for Ding&Dong.

HOUSE BARATHEON IS EXTINCT

[Stag_legion]

Stannis is dead for good. It was predicted when Shireen burnt with a wooden Stag in her hand - that meant: Burning Shireen will lead to the absolute end of House Baratheon.

And thats it.

It is just dramatic and unnerving bs, that they did not show Stannis die, he (and we) deserved at least that much, but it was yet another way to cliffhang for Ding&Dong.

HOUSE BARATHEON IS EXTINCT

"We shall see, come the dawn we shall see"

[calo760]

Gendry is could be out there, and knowing who his father was, he has probably squirted bastards into 20 women by now! It will make its come back :)

[Eucratides_Megas]

Show!Stannis is dead.

On the other hand, I just remembered when George said he was considering a new twist that the show couldn't possibly replicate due to the state of things. Maybe, just maybe, it will involve Stannis and he will live a lot more? We can dream.

There's a quote where I think GRRM may have dropped a massive spoiler, but if it is its a subtle one. Here's the quote in its entirety: And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

Now, aside from confirming what I and many others believe, that Stannis is basically a good man who's pragmatism has foced him to do some pretty grey things, the other part I think is important vitally missed---the comparison to ancient monarchs. Louis XI "The Spider King" and Tiberius were both ruling monarchs for many, many years. Both were fairly successful though they suffered from post-mortem character assassination, mostly Tiberius thanks to the senatorial disdain for the Julio-Claudians. But the really important one that might have real bearing on Stannis's future is Henry VII: a king who won his crown on the field of battle (ironically fighting one of the historical characters elements of Stannis's personality and story are formed from, the much maligned Richard III).

Henry VII won (with the help of the turncloak Stanleys, aka the Manderlys in ASOIAF), and he kept his throne to the day he died. In fact all of these men he compared Stannis to died with their crowns intact, and all of them from natural causes, not warfare.

Now it would be foolish to expect GRRM to write Stannis as following the exact same career path as those three, but I really think he's foreshadowing the fact that Stannis will sit the Iron Throne at one point.

I keep wondering how safe Selyse and Shireen are considering both their moving to the Nightfort and the giant, probably violent repercussions the attempted assassination of Jon Snow will have. Melisandre sees visions of Patchface at the Nightfort (I think, not suire about the location) with blood on his lips surrounded by skulls, perhaps a vision of something ominous happening there.

Now if either of them are harmed, it is likely Stannis will marry to secure the dynasty's future. So who knows, he could sit the Iron throne with any number of new queens. IDK one way or another, as I said its a big amount of speculation on books yet to be published. But it would be really interesting.

[kacunnin]

They needed him to fail this season as punishment for shireen burning and following melisandre, after he's been humbled they can give him his victory next season.

I don't think so. The way they handled Shireen's sacrifice made it very clear that Stannis was doomed. He was willing to burn his innocent child -- in front of his men, no less -- to help him take Winterfell. And look what happened -- the snow melted, yes, but his wife killed herself, his men deserted him (taking the horses with them), and he was left to either march to his death or retreat. He chose death, and death it should be.

As for the books, my guess is pretty much the same thing will happen, eventually. Stannis will sacrifice Shireen, Mel's visions will be proven false, and Stannis will fall.

[nyser1]

I was very unpleased with how D&D handled this. However, I think between their self-imposed time constraints & what they expect an audience to be attracted to & comprehend, this is an extremely consolidated version of the future of the North. A limited number of characters and Stark v. Bolton situations with only Starks and Boltons (perhaps a snow, a seaworth, and/or a baelish thrown into the mix).

[Hayyoth]

I don't think so. The way they handled Shireen's sacrifice made it very clear that Stannis was doomed. He was willing to burn his innocent child -- in front of his men, no less -- to help him take Winterfell. And look what happened -- the snow melted, yes, but his wife killed herself, his men deserted him (taking the horses with them), and he was left to either march to his death or retreat. He chose death, and death it should be.

I don't think we can assume any of the show plot as confirmed spoiler material, there's so much fanfic shit to wade through it's become impossible. I was 100% sure the Nights King was a genuine spoiler but GRRM has come out and confirmed no. Same goes for Craster's sons, can we really be sure they're converted into White Walkers in the books? I guess there's enough clues in the text to say yes but honestly I'm no longer definite. As for Stannis what I think is as follows:

D&D hate his character, which is weird as most neckbeards I know who're fans of the books love Stannis, but there you go they hate his guts. They've gone out of their way to write him as a child murdering, weak minded religious psychopath. They want to edit down the characters for the last two seasons, they're going to introduce us to sexy Pirate Euron next year etc, so they needed to get rid of someone taking up a lot of screen time. So why not take Stannis's story arc and simply give it to someone else? Cue Littlefinger who in show world has the Vale Knights at his bec and call coz reasons. Next year expect him to march North and we'll have the actual battle of ice we were denied this year. Hell I expect it to be one of the opening scenes in Season 6, Sansa and Theon running from WF having survived that 50ft jump straight into the arms of Littlefinger and his Vale army coming to lay siege to Winterfell. Very simply book Littlefinger and Stannis have been merged into one, we'll call him Stanninger for future reference. What this tells us about the fate of Stannis in the WoW? Absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned.

[Weeping Sore]

My position RE: the ADwD cliffhangers and the end of S5 are the same: It's not going to be a fake-out death for both Stannis and Jon. Stannis's role in the plot is over. He is dead on the show, and either dead or soon-to-be dead in the books. Jon is necessary, so he'll be resurrected directly a la Thoros/Beric by Melisandre on the show, more circuitously by warging into Ghost in the books.

[Aerys III of his name]

I am a big fan of Stannis and I publicly accuse the tv authors of regicide! they've kiled him in both spiritual and physical way (I hope he will not survive the show like someone hope or they could do even worse, e.g.flayed by boltons)

pretty sure book Stannis will not end like a monster

[aucp3]

My opinion, along with that of several GoT watch groups I'm apart of (which consists of show watchers only) all agreed they kind of felt sorry for Stannis at the end. And most perfectly understood his reasonings for thinking he needed to burn Shireen. I don't think that Stannis' character was just assassinated in the way that those who just adored him thinks it was. It may have been for them personally because they always adored Stannis. I've been pretty neutral on Stannis, but ever since he and Mellisandre were first introduced I had a hard time buying into him as being a great king because unless he murdered Mellisandre at some point, you KNEW she'd always be right by his side — a practitioner of blood magic who enjoys burning people alive for not worshipping the Lord of Light. The way Stannis' character is written, he's not a firm believer, but if he were to end up on the Iron Throne chances are he'd be a convert to this line religious fanaticism. How could anyone believe that would make a good ruler? I think Stannis' character was a doomed man from the moment George conceived of his story line.

[SerDesmondHume]

...why another thread about this...?

Well, I wouldn't count on that. He barely does any press or promotions. And when he does press, he's kinda like this

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jan/18/stephen-dillane-q-and-a

Very Staniesque, BTW.

I just had to link to that interview for reasons, I really like the man. But the Mannis has joined the choir invisible.

That interview is kind of sad. I want to give him a hug. He really is Stannis in real life.

[Tagganaro]

I don't think we can assume any of the show plot as confirmed spoiler material, there's so much fanfic shit to wade through it's become impossible. I was 100% sure the Nights King was a genuine spoiler but GRRM has come out and confirmed no. Same goes for Craster's sons, can we really be sure they're converted into White Walkers in the books? I guess there's enough clues in the text to say yes but honestly I'm no longer definite. As for Stannis what I think is as follows:

D&D hate his character, which is weird as most neckbeards I know who're fans of the books love Stannis, but there you go they hate his guts. They've gone out of their way to write him as a child murdering, weak minded religious psychopath. They want to edit down the characters for the last two seasons, they're going to introduce us to sexy Pirate Euron next year etc, so they needed to get rid of someone taking up a lot of screen time. So why not take Stannis's story arc and simply give it to someone else? Cue Littlefinger who in show world has the Vale Knights at his bec and call coz reasons. Next year expect him to march North and we'll have the actual battle of ice we were denied this year. Hell I expect it to be one of the opening scenes in Season 6, Sansa and Theon running from WF having survived that 50ft jump straight into the arms of Littlefinger and his Vale army coming to lay siege to Winterfell. Very simply book Littlefinger and Stannis have been merged into one, we'll call him Stanninger for future reference. What this tells us about the fate of Stannis in the WoW? Absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned.

I think this might be a fair analysis. Because really, based on what we know in the books, I have trouble seeing Stannis losing the Battle of Winterfell. So the show is getting to the same place, I guess, with LF taking Stannis's place? I think if one thing has been made clear/spoilery by the show (and by the way, not too far-fetched based on the books either), is that Stannis will eventually be occupying a more villainous kind of character territory, as he will be occupying WF/the North facing off against the resurgent Starks.

This is all speculation though, as based on the prophecy in the books I"m still of the mind that Sansa and LF have to get to Winterfell anyway, in order for her to fulfill the prophecy of slaying a giant in a castle made of snow (I don't believe the Ghost of High Heart would prophetize such a mundane event as Sansa ripping Robin's doll in half in her fake castle.)

[IKE-STL]

I liked what Christopher Orr had to say:

Benioff and Weiss lack the subtlety of Martin: They tend to go for bigger, rather than cleverer or more nuanced...

...it [stannis Season5 plot arc] was squeezed to the point where it lost both moral weight and narrative coherence. I’ll miss you tremendously, Stannis; and at the same time, good riddance.

If D&D go for loud and shocking for the sake of being loud and shocking, then they left Stannis's death ambiguous simply for the sake of ambiguity.

I don't doubt he's dead. But only because of trajectory and budget issues. The live or let die of his arc is inconsequential. Why create ambiguity in an event that does not warrant it? Fan reaction. It's cheap, just like the one-liners, and character assassination of Stannis all to create an "I'm Brienne of Tarth" applause line.