Rant and Rave Without Repercussion 3 (Book Spoilers)

[The Ned's Little Girl]

To add to my previous comment, I do not believe that even most of the people who didn't read the books would find the show rewatchable, if they tried. They would see all the flaws in between the scenes that are meant to shock and also must be meant to neutralize the critical thinking.

The show writers do not miss a chance to mention the books in their interviews, as if implying their work is a real thing too, while not aiming for longevity at all. They are like people who sell plastic copies of everything, trying to make the most money, before someone else finds a way to do and sell it cheaper. And those people now have the power over the story. I hope I am done talking :angry:

Please keep talking! And at great length too! :bowdown:

[Annara Snow]

Am I the only one who doesn't care at all about any casting calls or news for season 6? This post sums up my feelings. The show is beyond salvation now, even if it were to get better in season 6 (not that being better than the shitfest that's season 5 would be difficult...), which is unlikely, as it will be entirely scripted by D, D and C with little book material to draw upon. This season, I stopped watching because it was excruciating, but I continued to follow recaps, reviews and reactions, just to see the end of the season through (remember how many people were telling us to "wait and see" and how it will all somehow make sense? Well, we've seen it now...), and because I realized how much enjoyment I get out of people ridiculing the show's stupidity. The one good thing about this season is that D&D's inane attempt to "improve" the books is probably going to make people appreciate AFFC and ADWD more by comparison.

But I think I'm ready to stop completely following the show in any shape or form in season 6. I'm not even checking the news about casting calls and such, when I find them in between the rants about season 5, I just ignore them. Ironically, before the season started I was among those who argued in favor of watching the show even as it surpasses the books, because I thought that it's better to be spoiled through the show than through Internet. Now I'm of the exact opposite opinion, and I have stopped watching the show not because of spoilers, but because it's so terrible on its own. I don't even think the show is spoiling the future books at this point, whatever crap Benioff says in his interviews - I don't think it can spoil them in the real sense of the word, since nothing on the show has almost anything to do with the books at this point. At best/worst, the plot points on the show can be distant echoes or twisted versions of something that sort of happens in the books at some point to someone, possibly someone else and probably in a completely different manner. Even people being killed off doesn't mean a thing, except that they probably won't sit the Iron Throne in the end. Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if Benioff and Weiss change that, too. Maybe their idea of "the same ending" is just what happens with the Others.

So, maybe I should be grateful to D&D for preventing me from being spoiled for the future books.

Here's my new honeypot theory:

D&D felt bad about spoiling George’s future books, so they decided to try everything to get GoT cancelled. But since the ratings for season 4 were so high, they realized something truly drastic was needed for HBO to do it. Therefore they decided to write the worst possible season of television, not just a season with the usual amount of GoT bad writing, but one that would be so undeniably terrible and also incredibly offensive to pretty much everyone, that ratings were sure to drop very quickly and the show was sure to be butchered by all the critics.

However, to their surprise, the tactic did not work. The ratings dropped, but not nearly enough, and it turned out that, while the show started to get deserved criticism, there was still a number of critics and fans who were ready to swallow the utter shit that D&D had served them and call it delicious cake.

This has got to be true, right? Otherwise... it's hard to accept the idea that people who write for TV and are very successful at their jobs can be that incompetent.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So, Dany's rule and the black priest that is trying to reach her have been replaced with Tyrion and Varys and a hot "exotic" woman that will surely show some boobage?

This show wasn't already embarrassing enough, right?

[protar]

Am I the only one who doesn't care at all about any casting calls or news for season 6? This post sums up my feelings. The show is beyond salvation now, even if it were to get better in season 6 (not that being better than the shitfest that's season 5 would be difficult...), which is unlikely, as it will be entirely scripted by D, D and C with little book material to draw upon. This season, I stopped watching because it was excruciating, but I continued to follow recaps, reviews and reactions, just to see the end of the season through (remember how many people were telling us to "wait and see" and how it will all somehow make sense? Well, we've seen it now...), and because I realized how much enjoyment I get out of people ridiculing the show's stupidity. The one good thing about this season is that D&D's inane attempt to "improve" the books is probably going to make people appreciate AFFC and ADWD more by comparison.

But I think I'm ready to stop completely following the show in any shape or form in season 6. I'm not even checking the news about casting calls and such, when I find them in between the rants about season 5, I just ignore them. Ironically, before the season started I was among those who argued in favor of watching the show even as it surpasses the books, because I thought that it's better to be spoiled through the show than through Internet. Now I'm of the exact opposite opinion, and I have stopped watching the show not because of spoilers, but because it's so terrible on its own. I don't even think the show is spoiling the future books at this point, whatever crap Benioff says in his interviews - I don't think it can spoil them in the real sense of the word, since nothing on the show has almost anything to do with the books at this point. At best/worst, the plot points on the show can be distant echoes or twisted versions of something that sort of happens in the books at some point to someone, possibly someone else and probably in a completely different manner. Even people being killed off doesn't mean a thing, except that they probably won't sit the Iron Throne in the end. Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if Benioff and Weiss change that, too. Maybe their idea of "the same ending" is just what happens with the Others.

So, maybe I should be grateful to D&D for preventing me from being spoiled for the future books.

Here's my new honeypot theory:

D&D felt bad about spoiling George’s future books, so they decided to try everything to get GoT cancelled. But since the ratings for season 4 were so high, they realized something truly drastic was needed for HBO to do it. Therefore they decided to write the worst possible season of television, not just a season with the usual amount of GoT bad writing, but one that would be so undeniably terrible and also incredibly offensive to pretty much everyone, that ratings were sure to drop very quickly and the show was sure to be butchered by all the critics.

However, to their surprise, the tactic did not work. The ratings dropped, but not nearly enough, and it turned out that, while the show started to get deserved criticism, there was still a number of critics and fans who were ready to swallow the utter shit that D&D had served them and call it delicious cake.

This has got to be true, right? Otherwise... it's hard to accept the idea that people who write for TV and are very successful at their jobs can be that incompetent.

I care about S6 casting, in so far as I find hatewatching this show is hilarious.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Most definitions, that's done with the intent of making people like the person less. In this case, while book readers find him odious this way, I do think the intent is that viewers like him more, and I think show only viewers do like him more.

"the act of saying false things about a person usually in order to make the public stop liking or trusting that person"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/character%20assassination

Yes. But I think we can agree that Tyrion's character was still completely butchered by turning him into Saint Tyrion. :frown5:

[R4W13Y]

So, I haven't worked up the nerve to sit down and watch this episode in its entirety yet, but I have a question about the Arya scene (and I'm not entirely caught up with this thread yet, so I apologize in advance if this has been discussed already):

I know that Jaqen II commits suicide after Arya kills Trant, but some people here ahve said that it was to repay her debt to the Many Faced God or some such. Can I get clarification on this, because that sounds like the exact opposite of how that should work. Arya killed someone who was not already slated to die. By all rights, that means that the MFG has an extra life and owes someone their life back. Previously, Arya got three free deaths because she had prevented three deaths. If she has now caused a death, shouldn't she be owed?

This sounds like a case of a death for a death that was justified as a life for a death. Am I just working from incomplete knowledge because I haven't watched that particular scene, or is that really how this was explained away?

Also, unrelated, I am so glad I found this place because I have been complaining about this show for some time and I feel like it has been falling on deaf ears. It's nice to know I'm not alone in the world and I am so happy to see some of the critics finally cottoning on as well.

I was really confused about that scene too.

Even so, since they did go the "death pays for death" route (which doesn't make much sense), they should have just had her still kill the Thin Man instead of Jaqen committing suicide, or whatever.

You know the thing has gone totallly off the rails when Qyburn, who tortures people and conducts experiments on them while they are alive--innocent people mind you--is more sympathetic than Stannis Baratheon. By a lot.

Fan fiction. It is what it is. Even the characters they like don't fare too well at this point. I have a feeling that when all is said and done, Carol Lannister is going to end up having had the best, most continuious sense of character.

What's not to like?

This is a great point. I've been critical of how sweet and kind Qyburn is without all the creepy human experimentation/torture being washed away. But yeah, they turn someone like him and Tywin into good guys! But Stannis and Jaime are the big bad monsters. (Seriously, I would call Qyburn and Tywin of the books monsters).

This annoys me and angers me no end.

'The show is great because it captures the complexities of the books' - as untrue as it gets, but they ride on the back of Martin's achievements when it suits them.

But then... any identified flaws on the show are explained away by 'poor D&D did their best and even improved on the source material, it's not their fault that the source material is so bad'.

Yup, everyone twists the arguments around depending on the scenario. A scene that D&D made up sucks (Dorne): well, GRRM's books were so shitty, no wonder! A scene D&D made up is controversial (Shireen): GRRM told us this happens, don't blame us! A scene D&D made up is popular (Hardhome/Tyrion and Dany): They're improving GRRM's books!

Basically, D&D do no wrong. If it's successful: they're brilliant. If it's not successful: GRRM sucks.

He's got the grandfatherly outer personna, but the mad doctor who doesn't care about human life is gone. The Mountain would have died, now he's sort of alive, that's not even that bad, comparatively speaking. There is nothing else he's done, no sense that he lacks the normal set of boundaries..and the Mountain was a bad guy, lol. So, instead of a very grey character who stops at nothing to satisfy his own quest for knowledge including the torture of innocents and killing them in grotesque fashion, he's just a guy who used his skill to keep the Mountain alive and puts the blanket on poor Carol.

Absolutely. They took that one side of his personality while completely forgetting about the fucked up side. Honestly, it makes it seem like the maesters are in the wrong, and they just stifled Qyburn's revolutionary ideas. If only they had let the man be a genius!

[Le Cygne]

What I think will happen: she will tell Davos somehow, and he will then go and look himself. She will then return to WF or the Vale with BF. Or, go along with Davos, maybe with Brienne and Pod and possibly Theon too (ugh). This is of course assuming they don't forget that she knows at all, as they did with Jon and Bran (ugh).

Why would she trust Davos, though? She has every reason not to. And surely Brienne doesn't, he's the staunch ally of Stannis. Davos finding Rickon came about very differently in the books, and now that they have Northern Lords, perhaps it will happen in a similar way. Both Sandor and Brienne told her not to blindly trust Stannis, and then they had him burn his daughter for king's blood, surely that news will reach her ears pretty soon. As will the stabbing of her half brother, as well as word of the Others eventually, and there's the conflict with the Wildlings and the Watch, too. The Wall is not really a safe place, they just had Gilly leave for that reason, too.

Also they played down the Jon connection, they said she felt like she didn't have any family until she heard about Bran and Rickon (so much for Jon). And they made Jon's death about Olly rather than rescuing her.

[Shuvuuia]

In any other show I would be glad they are using female priestesses, but with GoT and their attitude towards women and making R'hllorism purely evil - please, no.

But I loved that priestess from Volantis. And she wasn't sexualized - wish they use her again.

P.S. I imagine Victarion sulking because stupid Tyrion gets a hot priestess, while he is stucked with some creepy dude.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Am I the only one who doesn't care at all about any casting calls or news for season 6?

I stopped caring in the "omg, they're casting X, yay!" sense. Like, when you know an adaptation is on the works and you can't wait to find out what face is playing your favourite character. Like, for example, when I found out Patrick Stewart was playing Charles Xavier -putting quality of the movies aside- I was very pleased with that choice. And, I got worried about Gary Oldman playing Sirius Black, but he ended up nailing the role and despite the changes done to his character, he was a good choice.

Now, I don't care in a good way. I feel protective towards the characters because those are characters I like. And I would hate people would end up having the completely wrong impression about them, as it's happening now with, for example, Stannis, Doran or the Sand Snakes. They are, after all, literary creations but they aren't surviving the change to a live adaptation. People is going to believe Doran is an idiot and Stannis is a satanic asshole. They are now starting with the part of the story that I consider specially important: Tower of Joy, preRobert Rebellion and the background of Jon. And of course, the most important, Rhaegar Targaryen (who they already fucked up). So, instead of being excited or even wary, I'm TERRIFIED.

[R4W13Y]

How the hell does Varys immediately know about Stannis' defeat in Winterfell? Why have they sexed up Benerro? Why is this character pretty much Melisandre?

Took the words right out of my mouth.

O-kay....so I'm now starting to slightly worry about Jon's return if D&D have already made up their minds about this. And, oh gods, please don't let this happen, hopefully Varys will call it and it's a mistake, but I doubt it.

Yeah when the doubt about Jon's return was in full swing (and I still have slight doubts) I figured it was because they were going to put it all on Dany now.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes. But I think we can agree that Tyrion's character was still completely butchered by turning him into Saint Tyrion. :frown5:

Well, he's boring. The worst thing that can happen to a character is that is boring. Honestly, I dunno why people would cheer for Tyrion now. Because "fuck yeah, comeuppance and he's now being practically a King!!"? Why has he done to deserve that? He murdered a prostitute and killed his father and suddenly ended up with a kingdom to rule?

All three Lannister kids have done a penance walk to either improve or descend into madness. Cersei (WoS), Jaime (in the Riverlands) and Tyrion across the Rhoynar. That's the interesting part of them :dunno:

[Annara Snow]

I stopped caring in the "omg, they're casting X, yay!" sense. Like, when you know an adaptation is on the works and you can't wait to find out what face is playing your favourite character. Like, for example, when I found out Patrick Stewart was playing Charles Xavier -putting quality of the movies aside- I was very pleased with that choice. And, I got worried about Gary Oldman playing Sirius Black, but he ended up nailing the role and despite the changes done to his character, he was a good choice.

Now, I don't care in a good way. I feel protective towards the characters because those are characters I like. And I would hate people would end up having the completely wrong impression about them, as it's happening now with, for example, Stannis, Doran or the Sand Snakes. They are, after all, literary creations but they aren't surviving the change to a live adaptation. People is going to believe Doran is an idiot and Stannis is a satanic asshole. They are now starting with the part of the story that I consider specially important: Tower of Joy, preRobert Rebellion and the background of Jon. And of course, the most important, Rhaegar Targaryen (who they already fucked up). So, instead of being excited or even wary, I'm TERRIFIED.

Well, that ship has sailed already. Now all we can do is tell people to "not judge the books by its TV show".

The reason I feel bad is that, whenever there is a great casting choice, I think how sad it is that they're going to waste yet another great actor who would have had the opportunity to have fantastic material and do the character justice.

[Astromech]

So now that we see the Faceless Men have multiple Jaqen masks, will every FM assassination now be done by Jaqen? Was this merely a contrivance of D&D's to place Jaqen in Oldtown and at Pyke? If so, it's starting to make me wonder if Batfinger is actually just multiple FMs, explaining his ubiquity and inconsistent accent.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

In any other show I would be glad they are using female priestesses, but with GoT and their attitude towards women and making R'hllorism purely evil - please, no.

But I loved that priestess from Volantis. And she wasn't sexualized - wish they use her again.

P.S. I imagine Victarion sulking because stupid Tyrion gets a hot priestess, while he is stucked with some creepy dude.

If they did use again, they would have to. Or have her raped. Or become a badass murderer. It's not like there's more than 3 things women can be in shows.

[HexMachina]

Why'd you guys have to go and remind me of Cats "motherless child" monologue. Shame shame shame shame shame

I prefer to think that they decided Robb's mother on the show was someone else. Like, Cersei. And Carol is some kind of adaptation of Catelyn.

Or something. *sigh*

https://38.media.tumblr.com/201da334d5c6fa7ae05f0f8abcbb2ca2/tumblr_inline_nq5djoRo2n1rku3fs_540.gif

Best thing to come out of Season 5. ShameNun them all!

You know the thing has gone totallly off the rails when Qyburn, who tortures people and conducts experiments on them while they are alive--innocent people mind you--is more sympathetic than Stannis Baratheon. By a lot.

Fan fiction. It is what it is. Even the characters they like don't fare too well at this point. I have a feeling that when all is said and done, Carol Lannister is going to end up having had the best, most continuious sense of character.

What's not to like?

Qyburn, the true Kindly Old Man.

[Shuvuuia]

If they did use again, they would have to. Or have her raped. Or become a badass murderer. It's not like there's more than 3 things women can be in shows.

They can also be a nagging Mom (Cat) or a sassy old lady (Olenna) or crazy (Selyse, Lysa)

[R4W13Y]

Does Varys even have a big agenda in the show? Is he seriously just going to be some true Dany believer who will just chill in Meereen and help St. Tyrion rule for her?

I seriously think yup, he's going to just rule Meereen alongside his best buddy St. Tyrion.

This scene seems all mixed up. If Tyrion and Varys are displaying this kind of attitude towards her, why on earth are they seeking her help?

Exactly what I was thinking! They invited her there, so it seems. They want her help. And yet they're all bitchy to her. I would be like "Fuck this shit, y'all invited me, go fuck yourselves"

There was also a casting call for Varamyr Sixskins for season 5. What was that all about?

When they are not changing women in positions of political power into men (Doran's and Oberyn's mother the ruling Princess of Dorne => Doran's and Oberyn's father the ruling Prince of Dorne; Lady Blackmont => Lord Blackmont; Arianne, the heir to Dorne => Trystane, the heir to Dorne; Nymeria Sand on the Great Council => Trystane Martell on the Great Council...).

Am I the only one who doesn't care at all about any casting calls or news for season 6? This post sums up my feelings. The show is beyond salvation now, even if it were to get better in season 6 (not that being better than the shitfest that's season 5 would be difficult...), which is unlikely, as it will be entirely scripted by D, D and C with little book material to draw upon. This season, I stopped watching because it was excruciating, but I continued to follow recaps, reviews and reactions, just to see the end of the season through (remember how many people were telling us to "wait and see" and how it will all somehow make sense? Well, we've seen it now...), and because I realized how much enjoyment I get out of people ridiculing the show's stupidity. The one good thing about this season is that D&D's inane attempt to "improve" the books is probably going to make people appreciate AFFC and ADWD more by comparison.

But I think I'm ready to stop completely following the show in any shape or form in season 6. I'm not even checking the news about casting calls and such, when I find them in between the rants about season 5, I just ignore them. Ironically, before the season started I was among those who argued in favor of watching the show even as it surpasses the books, because I thought that it's better to be spoiled through the show than through Internet. Now I'm of the exact opposite opinion, and I have stopped watching the show not because of spoilers, but because it's so terrible on its own. I don't even think the show is spoiling the future books at this point, whatever crap Benioff says in his interviews - I don't think it can spoil them in the real sense of the word, since nothing on the show has almost anything to do with the books at this point. At best/worst, the plot points on the show can be distant echoes or twisted versions of something that sort of happens in the books at some point to someone, possibly someone else and probably in a completely different manner. Even people being killed off doesn't mean a thing, except that they probably won't sit the Iron Throne in the end. Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if Benioff and Weiss change that, too. Maybe their idea of "the same ending" is just what happens with the Others.

So, maybe I should be grateful to D&D for preventing me from being spoiled for the future books.

Here's my new honeypot theory:

D&D felt bad about spoiling George’s future books, so they decided to try everything to get GoT cancelled. But since the ratings for season 4 were so high, they realized something truly drastic was needed for HBO to do it. Therefore they decided to write the worst possible season of television, not just a season with the usual amount of GoT bad writing, but one that would be so undeniably terrible and also incredibly offensive to pretty much everyone, that ratings were sure to drop very quickly and the show was sure to be butchered by all the critics.

However, to their surprise, the tactic did not work. The ratings dropped, but not nearly enough, and it turned out that, while the show started to get deserved criticism, there was still a number of critics and fans who were ready to swallow the utter shit that D&D had served them and call it delicious cake.

This has got to be true, right? Otherwise... it's hard to accept the idea that people who write for TV and are very successful at their jobs can be that incompetent.

:bowdown: to both posts

Why would she trust Davos, though? She has every reason not to. And surely Brienne doesn't, he's the staunch ally of Stannis. Davos finding Rickon came about very differently in the books, and now that they have Northern Lords, perhaps it will happen in a similar way. Both Sandor and Brienne told her not to blindly trust Stannis, and then they had him burn his daughter for king's blood, surely that news will reach her ears pretty soon. As will the stabbing of her half brother, as well as word of the Others eventually, and there's the conflict with the Wildlings and the Watch, too. The Wall is not really a safe place, they just had Gilly leave for that reason, too.

Also they played down the Jon connection, they said she felt like she didn't have any family until she heard about Bran and Rickon (so much for Jon). And they made Jon's death about Olly rather than rescuing her.

You made great points, and I agree in a logical way that it doesn't make sense. But they do so many half-assed things to get characters back to their "book" stories after making them go astray, so I figure maybe Davos is going to go back on his book path of finding Rickon. And since only Theon/Sansa know (as well as Roose/Ramsay, but yeah) then I would assume they would have to give him the information somehow. This is all assuming they do decide to keep some semblance of Davos' book story.

But I agree, why would Sansa trust them, and why would they go to the Wall? But considering that news travels at the speed of plot (Meereen knows of Stannis' defeat thanks to that audition transcript :rolleyes: and Jeor's death, Meereen/Dany updates at the Wall etc. but Carol doesn't know anything about Sansa?) maybe she won't know about Jon's stabbing until she gets to the Wall? I do think she will reconnect with BF though, somehow.

I mean, I honestly don't know or care. This is just me trying to make some sense of the absolute clusterfuck they've created.

I stopped caring in the "omg, they're casting X, yay!" sense. Like, when you know an adaptation is on the works and you can't wait to find out what face is playing your favourite character. Like, for example, when I found out Patrick Stewart was playing Charles Xavier -putting quality of the movies aside- I was very pleased with that choice. And, I got worried about Gary Oldman playing Sirius Black, but he ended up nailing the role and despite the changes done to his character, he was a good choice.

Now, I don't care in a good way. I feel protective towards the characters because those are characters I like. And I would hate people would end up having the completely wrong impression about them, as it's happening now with, for example, Stannis, Doran or the Sand Snakes. They are, after all, literary creations but they aren't surviving the change to a live adaptation. People is going to believe Doran is an idiot and Stannis is a satanic asshole. They are now starting with the part of the story that I consider specially important: Tower of Joy, preRobert Rebellion and the background of Jon. And of course, the most important, Rhaegar Targaryen (who they already fucked up). So, instead of being excited or even wary, I'm TERRIFIED.

:agree:

Now I just dread who they are planning to have next season. Just stop ruining characters and the books please :bawl:

[Mark Antony]

I prefer to think that they decided Robb's mother on the show was someone else. Like, Cersei. And Carol is some kind of adaptation of Catelyn.

The butchering of Cat still pisses me off more than any other character they've butchered

[Ludo Kressh]

This scene seems all mixed up. If Tyrion and Varys are displaying this kind of attitude towards her, why on earth are they seeking her help?

And supposedly Varys hates sorcerers. He had the one that cut off his junk delivered to his chambers in a crate and he mentioned that he supports Tyrion's efforts to defend the city because he didn't want Stannis on the Iron Throne because of Melisandre...and now their seeking the help of another Melisandre? WTF?

Damn, I'm confused already and they haven't even started shooting the next season yet. :stillsick:

[kissdbyfire]

Re Varys and Dany, if they are really going to make Dany be Dany+Aegon, what else is there for Varys to do other than stand there and praise St Tyrion?