When did the Andals leave Essos?

[Lord Varys]

You don't have to read yourself to receive an education. The Stark children and Aegon get lessons by their respective maesters, they don't have to read on their own.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Doran complains especially that Arianne doesn't care one whiff about history. It's irrelevant whether Arianne doesn't pick up a history book or does her nails while not listening to her Maester going on about history.

[Lord Varys]

But we don't know that for a certainty. Besides, it is actually Daemon Sand and not Arianne who states that the cave belonged to the Children of the Forest 'a thousand years ago'.

 

Arianne knows that Mudds were once Kings of the Riverlands. Somebody who didn't listen to her history teacher wouldn't know that, too. If she knows about the Mudds - an obscure dynasty from the Riverlands in a distant past - then she should also know something about the context.

[Mithras]

Did not Jenny of Oldstones claim descent from the Mudds? If so, that information can be recited in Jenny's Song and that would be the only information of Arianne about the Mudds.

[Lord Varys]

Jenny claimed descent from the First Men, but there is no royal house explicitly mentioned. Besides, Arianne doesn't think about Jenny of Oldstones when she meets the Mudd guy from the Golden Company, making it unlikely that she knows about a connection between Jenny and the Mudds - and especially not that the stories about Jenny are her only source about the existence of House Mudd.

[Free Northman Reborn]

This is similar to Godric Borrell saying the Manderlys arrived 900 years ago, while a few chapters later Wylla Manderly says they arrived 1300 years ago.

Its part of Martin sowing doubts about the timeline accuracy.

[Jaak]

But we don't know that for a certainty. Besides, it is actually Daemon Sand and not Arianne who states that the cave belonged to the Children of the Forest 'a thousand years ago'.

 

Arianne knows that Mudds were once Kings of the Riverlands. Somebody who didn't listen to her history teacher wouldn't know that, too. If she knows about the Mudds - an obscure dynasty from the Riverlands in a distant past - then she should also know something about the context.

And Jaime knows about Bolton tradition of killing Starks. A tradition that ended 6000 years ago.

Westeros does not have awfully many historically important extinct Houses. Yronwoods and Royces are still around.

The few that did go extinct... Reach has Gardeners. In Iron Islands, both Greyirons and Hoares are extinct. Durrandon name is extinct, but the female line is very much there as Baratheons. Arguably the case with Casterlies. Only Riverlands has had Kings gone more than twice. And Mudds are, effectively, THE most prominent casualty of Andal conquest.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

One problem with the ambiguity that exists in the timeline is that the institutions that should keep track of dates have been existing for the past few thousand years. As BBE said, a few centuries ago people didn't really know when the Pharaohs lived, but that is because the Egyptian kingdoms collapsed and then the Roman Empire collapsed and soon enough there was no way to directly relate the system of dating people use with the ancient Egyptian calendar.

 

But in Westeros there have been institutions and families that have lasted thousands of years, unless Aegon was the first guy to try to date everything from a year 0 and before that they just used the reigns of different kings to date things then figuring out when an event happened shouldn't be too difficult.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The historical accounts in Westeros get really, really hazy about 1,000 to 1,500 years ago. Or rather, that seems to be the period when legend became history and people actually tracked important stuff like dates.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The historical accounts in Westeros get really, really hazy about 1,000 to 1,500 years ago. Or rather, that seems to be the period when legend became history and people actually tracked important stuff like dates.

 

Actually, the timeline seems pretty solid back to around 2000 years ago. Before that, it gets hazy.

 

Godric Borrell gave a very firm dating for the Rape of the Sisters, and specifically stated that the Maesters dated it thus, not folktales. Also, even the shortest timeline proposed by the various people disputing the original dating of the Andal arrival don't suggest that it was less than 2000 years ago.

 

It seems to me that written record keeping came into widespread use around 2000 years ago, and with it, the historical timeline firmed up a bit. Sure, there are still discrepancies - like Godric Borrell having an axe to grind with the Manderlys by trying to diminish their status as Northmen through giving as recent an arrival period as possible (900 years ago). Similarly, the Manderlys, in their family lore, likely try to enhance their "Northman" status by exxagerating the date of their arrival to 1000 years before the Conquest, rather than 1000 years before the present. The truth likely lies inbetween these two extremes, at around 1000 years in the past.

 

The same time that the Rhoynar were arriving in Dorne.

 

In any case, 2000 years ago seems to be the point where history starts blending into oral traditions.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Those accounts are pretty much the first semi-reliable accounts, smack-dab in the middle of the change to reliable, written history.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Those accounts are pretty much the first semi-reliable accounts, smack-dab in the middle of the change to reliable, written history.

 

Agreed.

[Bael's Bastard]

This is similar to Godric Borrell saying the Manderlys arrived 900 years ago, while a few chapters later Wylla Manderly says they arrived 1300 years ago.

Its part of Martin sowing doubts about the timeline accuracy.

 

Baseless speculation here, but perhaps "900 years ago" evolved from something like "900 years before the Doom"?

[Free Northman Reborn]

 
Baseless speculation here, but perhaps "900 years ago" evolved from something like "900 years before the Doom"?

Possible.

I recall the original reference being 1000 years ago, and that was a neutral source. Can't quite remember of it was from Maester Luwin or someone similar.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

Baseless speculation here, but perhaps "900 years ago" evolved from something like "900 years before the Doom"?

Unlikely.

 

That's an easy mistake for a reader to make but a society living and advancing through time wouldn't make it. Too many old farts noticing that it was already "900 years ago" when they were children.

[Bael's Bastard]

Possible.

I recall the original reference being 1000 years ago, and that was a neutral source. Can't quite remember of it was from Maester Luwin or someone similar.

 

The wording Wylla and the World book use is a thousand years before the Conquest. 

[Nittanian]

The Sworn Sword: "As the river is called the Mander, though the Manderlys were driven from its banks a thousand years ago."

 

ADWD Davos I: "'Twas no more than nine hundred years ago when they came north, laden down with all gold and gods."

 

ADWD Davos III: "A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new."

[Lord Varys]

We don't have a precise date on the Manderly exile, but there are hints when it happened. It must have happened after the reign of King Garth X Gardener, called 'Greybeard', since two of his daughters married either a Manderly and a Peake, and Houses Peake and Manderly plunged the Reach in a civil war during the days of his senility.

 

We also know that Dorne wasn't yet united during that day and age, since multiple Dornish kings jumped on the chance to attack and sack both Highgarden and Oldtown. This means that Garth X has to have ruled and died before the Rhoynar came to Dorne - which seems to have been about 1,000 years before the series.

 

The Peakes then drive the Manderlys out of the Reach during the reign of Perceon III Gardener, himself not being the son and successor of Mern VI (who succeeded Garth X) - that was Garth XI. This suggests that there may have been at least half a century or more between the death of Garth X and the rise of Perceon III. Perhaps even more.

 

Bottom line is we don't really know when exactly all that happened. Ser Bartimus may be an interested amateur historian, but we don't know how his methodology. I don't think he himself invented the tales he told Davos, but he may not have been able to differentiate fact from fiction in his tales.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

So we can place the Rhoynar invasion at approximately 700 BC, and the Manderlys coming north within a hundred years of that either way?

[AlaskanSandman]

The hazy history seems quite easy to pin point. 

Maesters and Septons.

Maesters were created by the sons of Uthor of the Hightower. Uthor of the Hightower wed Maris the Maid, daughter of Garth the Green and who knows what woman. This is said to have happened in the Age of Heroes. 

The Age of Heroes dates back to the Pact on the Gods Eye. Garth the Green is mentioned to be of the Age of Heroes, though contradicting accounts claim he led the first men into Westeros (Though there are no tales of him in the Reach, and in the North they claim it was the Barrow king). Two ways this is possiblish.

• First is that in TWOIAF The Breaking. It is mentioned that their is signs that the Sea of Dorne was once an Inland Freshwater sea. This either means the arm of Dorne connected at two points, near the Rainwood and down in Dorne proper. Or that there was an arm at Dorne and the Vale (which would explain the geography of the Fingers). Either way would allow for some to migrate into Dorne, while others entered while avoiding Dorne all together. Then thus finding Garth already there and truly the first man/God in Westeros.
• The other is that Garth is from the creation of the Pact, signed and forged by Man and CotF. Part of that pact probably being a mating. The Order of the Green men are described just like Garth are to the tee. This would require two different migrations of "First men" from completely different points as Men are already in the Northern realms of Westeros and have already made war and peace with the CotF.

This second one actually make some sense as Lann the Clever is supposed to be a son of one of Garth's daughters from an Andal Adventurer. Lann goes on to take Casterly Rock from the Casterly's some how who were already established. Keep in mind though that Garth may be a God who lived for at least 1000 years.

Either way were in the Age of Heroes and Uthor of the Hightowers sons create the Order of Maesters and the Citidel. This is important cause this means that they've been around this whole time and are fully aware of this historical cover up. Why is there a cover up? Dragons. I'll get back to that though. Now granted, Maesters are said to not have writing, just runes. This is still a method of record keeping for them though.

The Septons came with the Andals and supposedly brought writing and recorded history with them. Though it is mentioned frequently in TWOIAF that the Maesters and Septons have been hashing out the best "version" of history for some time.

As this thread brings up though, when did the Andals come? Two big clues come from Ser Artys Arryn and Alyssa Arryn, both of whom have conflicting dates. Artys gets lumped with a hero from the AOH, which is said to have been thousands of years before his time. Alyssa who is said to have been 6000 years ago is believed to have been 2000 years ago. The 6000 implication is that she is in Artys Arryns rough time frame. The other implication is that both were only 2000 years ago. Well Ser Artys Arryn and the Winged Knights stories can easily be combined into one man, while the Griffin King may have been a Royce. 

Could the Andal Invasion have happened in the AOH? Very likely yes, at least the start of it.

• Storm's end shows signs of Andal influence in it's construction, with round towers, having been built 7 times, survived 7 storms, and also surviving 7 Andal attacks.
• Morne and the story of Galladon of Morne are said to be Age of the Hero legends but conflict with there being no Knights back then due to no Andals in the AOH (According to History) and something not mentioned about the castle, likely round towers.
• Winterfell also shows Andal influence as it has round towers, more specifically, the oldest part of the castle is the old round main keep. Which is weird as Andals didn't invade the North. Yet.
• The Mormonts who seem like they are first men being linked with a bear and all, are actually called Andals, at least by the Dothraki who call Jorah an Andal.
• Tales of Knights in the Reach. Ser Davos the Dragon slayer, Ser Galladon of Morne, Ser Florian the Fool, The Winged Knight, Knight with out Armor, Ser Symeon Star Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Rainbow Knight, Roland of the Horn, and Jon the Oak the First Knight to name a few.
• Lann the clever. Either an Andal or son of an Andal.

So there are definitely many signs that points to yes. So this would mean that the Maesters have been in Westeros since the Age of Heroes, and that The Age of Heroes and the Andal Invasion happened in overlapping times. Why the cover up though?

Dragons. As mentioned above, there are tales of dragons and dragon slayers in Westeros during the Aoh. Tales of dragon resting atop Battle Isle before being drove off by the Hightowers who would build a tower atop some ancient black structure predating them. 

So just like during the Dance of Dragons during the Targaryen rule, the Septons and Maesters are trying to rid Westeros of Dragons and Targaryens with out direct confrontation risking all out war with them. Using manipulation behind the scenes to control history. 

Before moving forward let me point out an important implication of this time line being smaller and certain events actually overlapping. This allows for tales such as Hugor of the Hill, Huzhor Amai, Grazdan the Great, Bloodstone Emperor, Last Hero, Grey King, Galladon of Morne, Azor Ahai, and so on to all be happening all around the same time if not at the same time as one man's life. Rather than Huzhor Amai sounding like Azor Ahai but being seperated by time, and geography. Geography ill get back to, along with the Bloodstone Emperor and time frame. 

The Next question is how is this seemingly mass cover up pulled off?? One would think it would require the compliance of all the people of power across the planet. Yet this cant be the case because that would just make no sense and one would think that there would be evidence for this. Well first lets look at what in Essos is supposedly still pushing the histories back further. The Valyrians and the Ghiscari. Nothing else, literally, nothing else. You would think Yi-ti off hand, but no. Ill get back to them.

So the Valyrians and Ghiscaris have supposedly been fighting since shortly after the long night and have fought 5 major wars that were told of. 5 of which were told that Valyria won. Though despite these claims by Valyria or History, Dany see's tapestries in Merreen that depict Valyrians being led away in chains. So the Valyrians on one account are already caught aggrandizing them selves and altering history. The 5th and last of these wars are said to have been 5000 years ago, and yet there are issues of interesting confusion. One being, why does Valyria not expand again or pop up in history again until they're fighting the Rhoynar over 3000 years later? And why did Valyria keep going East? A couple points to make here.

• First, Yandel subtly mentions on multiple accounts with in TWOIAF that the Valyrians turned their attention west and clashing with the Rhoynar shortly after defeating the Ghiscari. This would make more sense. Lets say the wars ended 1600 years ago, roughly 300 years before conflict with the Rhoynar, allowing time for the rise of Volantis and conflict over the river. The expanse of the Silver Sea and later the Dothraki sea seems to have keep Valyria from marching up towards Sarnor, as the dragon lords seldom took interest in issues outside of Valyria following the War with Ghis. This would also work into the last of the Andals fleeing Essos and Andalos (which they took from Ibbish men, having come originally from some where around the Silver Sea/Dothraki Sea/Grasslands. Sharing ancestry with the Rhoynar likely to the Cymerreri).
• The other is why not go east? Actually, they did, i believe. The people who rule slavers bay are not the original Ghiscari people but rather mutts, slaves from many nations. This is important. Hizdar tells Dany his Grandfather or such had helped in the building of the Great Pyramid, and that Dany had him killed. After destroying the Ghiscari Empire, Valyria did not give it to a bunch of slaves. Not with Valyrias feelings on slavery. Valyria took all of the Ghiscari Empire and held it. Signs of this expansion East is the Qartheen i believe (who are a pale people, unlike the Dothraki, Lazareen and Ghiscari people who inhabit the lands around them) and the Emperor in Yi-ti who wed a Valrian and had a dragon at court. 

So if we can except that the Valyrians conquered the Ghiscari roughly 1600ish years ago, it make more things line into place. With the fall of Ghis and the Rhoynar later, this allows for more control over written history (oral history being our source of reference for truth). The Rhoynar and the Andals were the only peoples in that part of Essos having displaced the Giants and CotF. The Rhoynish fall and along with them, their accounts of history, other than any oral ones. Now, the Andals one could say would still have this true history written down, and being that they are fleeing from Valyria, why lie for Valyria. The Andals/Septons seem to be lying about a bit though, so lets just keep questioning them and their intentions for now.

Note on the Andals, you come to Westeros, you conquer, spread your faith, and rid Westeros of Dragons. Yet, why lie about it and distance your self from it in the histories, TWICE!?! hmmmmm, lets keep speculating. 

Now for the peoples West of Valyria. Well we already established that Valyria has conquered Ghis and is spreading East as far as the Bones. Now here they come into contact with the Golden Empire of Yi-ti where here we have people one could argue date back thousandddssss of years and would also have accounts of the true history. Well first lets deal with accounts on history. What Westeros knows of Yi-ti is by Yandel admittedly small. And yi-ti closely guards its scrolls and only a few fragments have made it out. So that being the case, its equally likely that they know about the same of Westeros, little.

The next is the issue of time. Well here GRRM wrote this section of TWOIAF and was unaltered or touched by Elio and Linda. Here martin gives select info about the Yitish Emperors and their rules. There were 10 empires, the longest (just one) ruling for 700 years. The shortest no more than 50 years. 4 interim periods, the longest lasting 100 years. To make your "8000" year mark, you'd have to give each empire a reign of 700 years and each interim 250. Thats being generous and false as all were not 700 years. Only one, and one was 50, and one was 130. As it says some lasted no longer than half a century you can assume at least 2 only lasted 50 years. So with those four empires your only at 880 years. If you say two are at the median length of rule at 375, your now at 6 empires and only 1600 years about. The longest interim period was 100 years so were at 1730. Even if your generous and give the remaining four empires and 3 interim's a total of 1000 years your only at 2700 years ago for the long night. With a period of darkness between the Long Night and the start of the Golden Empire of Yi-ti being overly generous at 1000 years we get the longest ago the Long Night was likely, which is close to 4000 years ago about. Now this was using generous numbers to add time to the time line, one can easily guesstimate it tighter.

So the info about Yi-ti actually helps pinpoint when it began, and when the Long Night roughly was. Which helps up piece together other parts of the story like Valyrias expansion after and activity in Westeros.

This brings me back to the Blood stone Emperor and many of our other Age of Heroes figures that i had mentioned above. Now, this part i haven't fully worked out yet as i am still taking in new info and taking more notes to formulate my idea. The viking legends surrounding Ymir, the Fire giants and Ice giants and such has suchhhhh a huge parallel that i just found. It goes like this, all of these guys or at least mostttt of them are all the same guy, and each is simply a tale about his life as he traveled about. A hero, a villain, a half brother, a father, a founder of nations and Houses, a god, and child of Ice and Fire. Azor Ahai, Huzhor Amai, Hyrkoon, Hugor of the Hill, Hukko, The First Dayne, Brandon the Builder, Brandon of the Bloody Blade, Galladon of Morne, The Last Hero, Neferion, The Grey King, Durran God's Grief, the Bloodstone Emperor and the Nights King.

It goes something like this. 

The Opal Emperor (Fire) and the last of the Fisher Queens (Ice) mate and have 3 children. The eldest a daughter, the Amethyst Empress Nissa Nissa. The 2nd born, the eldest brother Azor Ahai/Huzhor Amai who was a great warrior who had conquered the 3 tribes of man, the Gipps, the Cymmeri, the Zoqora and wed their daughters and founding the Kingdoms of Sarnor in the process. Then there is the youngest brother, founder of House Goodbrother and House Stark. The 2nd moon crashed to earth in pieces and Azor Ahai followed it to its source and there building Starfall and House Dayne with his sister Nissa Nissa. Following this stone would lead Azor Ahai East of the Golden Empire and over the Summer Sea to Westeros where he landed on the Iron Isles, or crossed a possible land bridge to get to the site of the fallen stone. At some point Azor Ahai/Hugor of the Hill (Oh, the "Hill" is Mother Mountain, the lone mountain which sat an island in the Silver Sea.) falls for a Mermaid named Elenai and angers the gods. She bears him 100 sons of which only 16 survive. (This may even be his sister Nissa Nissa, keep in mind they are all gods. Children of Gods, what ever. The people he led with him into westeros? The human tribes he had conquered, or a part of them i should say.). The Long Night comes and the Others and Azor Ahai is chosen to fight them. He forges a sword of this magic stone and plunges it into the heart of his sister forging Lightbringer/ Ice/ The Just Maid, the first Valrian type blade. He then with 12 companions, a dog, and a horse goes in search of the CotF (likely the ones responsible). All die except him and his sword breaks. He finds the CotF and makes a deal/pact. They supposedly help him construct the wall and stop the Others some how though it is not mentioned how. He then becomes the first L.C. of the Nights Watch but later falls for a woman. He spots Nissa Nissa come again, his blue eyed, tiger woman, corpse bride. Unable to sacrifice his wife a second time, he joins her and becomes the Nights King. Father and Mother, Nights King and Corpse Bride are only stopped by an alliance of their children (Starks, Daynes, Lannisters?). 

Just some thoughts on putting it all together, some or all may be wrong. A lot of links in the stories though and references through out with numbers and colors and more. Tigers eyes are golden but a variation of the same stone is Hawk's Eyes which is blue. Monkeys tail is a purple flower and Amethyst is a purple stone. Hugor has 44 son in his myth with his wife which make me think of the Iron Isles which has 44 Islands and 44 nagga's ribs. 31 Islands in the main grouping, and 13 in the smaller grouping west. 7 Islands are the largest. 7 is a reference allll over to Andals, most interestingly though is the 7 against 3 mentioned 3 times in Eddard's dungeon ch. The wall is 7oo x 3oo. 13 is a reference to the last hero myth and Nights King myth, also Jon dies on Jon 13 of ADWD. 31 seems to reference the 31 trees at high heart, which there is Nine of in the one that the Nights Watch of Castle Black use. Nine come up a lot in the books. Also there is 31 spikes in Robbs crown. A couple other numbers like 10 and 5 pop up too which can link the 5 forts and the 5 rivers that connect to the Bleeding Sea near by, also the 5 spikes in the crown of the Dustins sigil for the Barrow kings. Ten seems to connect to Blackwood sigil of 10 ravens around a weir tree along with 10 towers on the Iron Isle and the longest summer which was 10 years. I'm sure there is more.

A lot of the above myths involve falling stars or something (lightning in Grey Kings case, and Seven storms in Duran's) like Hugor being given 7 stars for a crown pulled down by the 7 gods. Or First Dayne following a fallen star, The Blood stone Emperor worshiping one, or is Galladon of Mornes case, the God the Maiden (a star also) literally falls for him, in love. The Maiden may be linked to the Maiden Maid of Light, the Moon Pale Maiden, and Bakkalon the Pale Child (A reference which may put ASOIAF in Martin's Thousand Worlds Universe).

Alot of them also involve a sword and a bride. Let me know your thoughts or if you have any other ideas on how better to maybe piece allll of this information together into something resembling an answer for us all

(Also if some one could explain to me how to upload images to this site or on forums to better illustrate some of this, id be greatly appreciative. Have a map of Planetos during the Dawn age and Age of Heroes depicting alot of info and showing the geography back then kinda.)

http://imgur.com/5btphs9