The Blood of Starks: More magical than Targaryens

[OberynBlackfyre]

***As a disclaimer, I just want to let people know that while I am talking about "magical powers" and "magical properties" of bloodlines and such, I do not mean to say that because a certain family or character comes from a certain bloodline or has certain blood, they do not have any uber super powers or special immune systems (fully) or anything like that. Yes it gives them certain "perks" if you will, but they are still very mortal......for what we know.


Stock Stark Blood:

-Ok, from what we know, House Stark was created during The Long Night and the events either leading up to it, or what caused it's end. Many think they were the family that contained the Last Hero, or Azor Ahai, etc. However that is also at odds with the fact that House Dayne also seemingly came from The Long Night, has Dawn, and fits the proto-valyrian bill that someone wielding fire magic would seemingly have.

That being said, it is reasonable to think that even during their inception, the resulting House Stark had "magical properties" about themselves. We do not know whether or not they had warging abilities during this time, but we do know that Brandon the Builder either had some sort of special magic or knowledge that helped him build The Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. We also know that Starks have always had a "sprinkle" of wolf's blood, that we ASSUME comes from when they were made during the Long Night.

-So it's reasonable to say that the original Stark blood contained: wolfs blood, (possible) warg elements, and (possible) Ice magic elements. The process in which their blood became imbued with these magics is still unknown, but it's reasonable to think that "warging" is hereditary through First Men, and Wolf's Blood could be a similar "shared" blood like the Valyrians/Dragons....though it could also just be that the Starks (as wargs) symbolically always used wolves as their vessels. Thus giving the family actual characteristics of the animals since they had shared their "soul" with them for so long. The ice magic properties is anyone's guess, but I think it's somewhat apparent that one existed certainly more than the other properties, because that could really be the only explanation for Brandon the Builder and how the Starks became "Kings of Winter", rulers of Winterfell (winter-fell)

The additions:

Warg Blood: So thankfully from the timeline and information of TWoIaF, we can now see the broad strokes of the struggle that House Stark went through to win, and keep, the North. One of the struggles was of the Warg King, who made common cause with some Children of the Forest, greenseers, animals, and a few other men I believe. After House Stark overthrew and slayed him, the Lord took the daughter to wife, an occurrence that would become the standard for House Stark. This proves that we have an actual occurrence of when we know warg genetics became part of the ruling line of House Stark. (There was also "The War of Wolves" in which House Stark fought a warg controlling an army of wolves, however it only says that he was defeated, no mention of any family)

Cursed/Barrow/Other/Giant? Blood: After the Warg King was dealt with, the account goes on to talk about the next big struggle The Kings of Winter faced....and that was the Barrow Kings. They considered themselves the TRUE kings of the First Men, laying a curse on any of those who would try to usurp that title. A curse that would feed on the life essence of the person, making them "corpse like". Now there is just enough mystery of the Barrows to illicit the Citadel to give some creedence to what The Barrow Kings had claimed. Now whether they were affiliated with the Others, or it was something from the Giants or Children of the Forest, it was clear that there was something unusual about the kingdom. So therefore like the Warg King, when the last Barrow King met his demise at the hand of one of the Kings of Winterfell, the King also took to wife the daughter of the slain King......which is why they possibly "evaded" the curse, since they absorbed the bloodline. The properties from the bloodline is still shrouded in obscurity.

Greenseer/Children of the Forest Blood: The last of the independent kingdoms of the North aside from the Starks, was that of the Marsh Kings. They were the ones who ruled the area now called The Neck, the swamps where Moat Cailin now stands sentinel. Now I don't believe the Marsh Kings put up much of a fight after the Barrow Kings fell, so the last Marsh King gave up his daughter willingly to the Starks. Thus completing what the Starks had always seemingly done, marrying the fallen foes bloodline into their own. Now it is widely known (and somewhat obviously proven) that the crannogmen had the blood of The Children of the Forest. Not only do they live closest to the nature, they also fit the stature, so it is completely reasonable to state that the Starks absorbed some blood of the Children through their marriage to the Marsh Kings through his daughter.


What this means: Now before anyone starts thinking that the Starks are going to start cursing people or start using that army of wolves to kill all the Freys (not saying it WON'T happen, but we just don't know), I just want to say that like all of GRRM's magic in the series, the magical blood they carry is super subtle. I think from this we just get more of an explanation as to how all 6 of the Stark children could have their warg powers awakened. Given all the blood lines they absorbed, I don't think it would be hard for Bloodraven to set up their powers. He could send the direwolf down by Winterfell, make sure that all of them get their pups, and since they have an affinity for wolves, it wouldn't be that hard at all (using Children of the Forest connections) to wake their inner wargs, since we know all of them carry at leas the potential to become a warg.

I also want to point out that I think it may also give them a certain tolerance to the cold. I say this because I can honestly not remember a time in which any of the Stark kids complained of being cold. Not saying that they CAN'T be cold, but just that their tolerance might be a little higher. I think Bran's journey to BR is what kind of won me over on that theory, as he is the one who seems to have made the journey with minimal damage from the cold.

However I think this is why their family is treated as being SO IMPORTANT to the North. They have literally taken all the powers and fury of the North and put it into one bloodline. This could be why THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A STARK IN WINTERFELL. For someone with their bloodline could warg to always know whats going on, they could treat with the Children of the Forest as they are technically "kin" and, the most important of them all.....

THEY HAVE DEFEATED THE CURSE. Which means that even when they are killed and wighted back to life, they are thralls to NO ONE. Because they proved that they are the true Kings of Winter, so therefore the curse or magic of winter cannot enslave them. Thus showing how Cold Hands can be sentient, whether he is the Night's King or simply just a Stark who was part of the Night's Watch.

Keep in mind, this could also be how Jon comes back to life, yet still maintains who he "is"......however he might be brought back by Ice AND Fire, if Mel tries this as well.


Thank you for reading!

[OberynBlackfyre]

Also:

The title is named so because I feel like many perceive the Targaryens to be the "most magical" of all the existing families. While I agree there is probably some magical properties in their bloodline, without more specific knowledge we can't say anything other than "Blood of the Dragon", which is only 1 magical property, compared to the Starks being able to cite three different magical bloodlines.

[TreeFaces]

Both are magical; the Old Gods and Targ/Dragon Blood. That is why I believe both are working to increase the magic present in the world both knowingly and unknowingly. An increase in one leads to an increase in another. The return of the others and dragons are two sides of the same coin.

[LordImp]

I belive the Stark's has Other blood as well. Bran the builder made the Wall and the Wall is of ice so , there must be something their.

[Nymeria Wolf-Stark]

Beautifully written! Very plausible :)

[OberynBlackfyre]

Beautifully written! Very plausible :)

thank you!!

Both are magical; the Old Gods and Targ/Dragon Blood. That is why I believe both are working to increase the magic present in the world both knowingly and unknowingly. An increase in one leads to an increase in another. The return of the others and dragons are two sides of the same coin.

I belive the Stark's has Other blood as well. Bran the builder made the Wall and the Wall is of ice so , there must be something their.

I agree on both points! The "levels" of magic I believe are somewhat constant at all times. So if you get the dragons back, that must be a reaction to the Others coming back as well.

I think that the Starks definitely have some sort of biological connection that place them in similar "power" range as the Others, or at least something that can counteract the Others. Shared blood seems likely.

[RoamingRonin]

Also:

The title is named so because I feel like many perceive the Targaryens to be the "most magical" of all the existing families. While I agree there is probably some magical properties in their bloodline, without more specific knowledge we can't say anything other than "Blood of the Dragon", which is only 1 magical property, compared to the Starks being able to cite three different magical bloodlines.

Not the Targaryens but the Valyrians. "The blood of Old Valyria" is "the blood of the dragon". The Targaryens call back to the old empire. That's why people view them as being the most magical. Valyria was a magical place (to say the least).

EDIT: It's not just 1 magical property... The Valyrians were big into fire and blood magic. They made Valyrian steel swords. They used their powers to fuse stone and build wonders. It wasn't just all about dragonriding with them.

I'm not inclined to believe the Starks have a mix of every species from the north in their lineage. If anything, various families of the north intermixed with different races. The Mormont are particularly hairy which leads me to believe they somehow managed to mix with the Ibbense. It's possible some families of the north have giants blood but I don't think the Starks are one of them. The crannogmen could have mated with the Children but I think it's highly unlikely. I believe their stature comes from how their diet and environment. Since they keep to themselves, their prominent traits (like short height and slight bodies) pass from generation to generation.

The First Men didn't become greenseers by breeding with the Children: they were taught. And so they passed that trait to their children and so on. As for Other blood.. I personally believe the Others can't breed. Their "race" is so associated with death I can't imagine them being able to produce life.

Anyhow, this is all sort of moot? Just because you have lots of special magical blood doesn't mean you will manifest special magical powers. Viserys was no "true" dragon but Dany is. All the Stark children are wargs but Ned and his siblings were not. Personally, I always saw the Starks as being just as special and magical as the Targaryens. It is a song of ice and fire, after all. :)

[OberynBlackfyre]

Not the Targaryens but the Valyrians. "The blood of Old Valyria" is "the blood of the dragon". The Targaryens call back to the old empire. That's why people view them as being the most magical. Valyria was a magical place (to say the least).

I'm not inclined to believe the Starks have a mix of every species from the north in their lineage. If anything, various families of the north intermixed with different races. The Mormont are particularly hairy which leads me to believe they somehow managed to mix with the Ibbense. It's possible some families of the north have giants blood but I don't think the Starks are one of them. The crannogmen could have mated with the Children but I think it's highly unlikely. I believe their stature comes from how their diet and environment. Since they keep to themselves, their prominent traits (like short height and slight bodies) pass from generation to generation.

The First Men didn't become greenseers by breeding with the Children: they were taught. And so they passed that trait to their children and so on. As for Other blood.. I personally believe the Others can't breed. Their "race" is so associated with death I can't imagine them being able to produce life.

Anyhow, this is all sort of moot? Just because you have lots of special magical blood doesn't mean you will manifest special magical powers. Viserys was no "true" dragon but Dany is. All the Stark children are wargs but Ned and his siblings were not. Personally, I always saw the Starks as being just as special and magical as the Targaryens. It is a song of ice and fire, after all. :)

well what you said is exactly what I said. I never said they were going to manifest any sort of magical powers, other than the ones we already have.

I mean having all 6 Stark children become wargs is more than just coincidence. Everything we know about warging seems that the gift, if passed down at all, is rare. However, all of the Starks have the chance of being a warg, only the 6 Stark children we meet in the series are the ones who NEEDED it. Ned and his siblings did not, they had their own destinies.

Also me saying that Starks married into magical blood isn't a theory, it's fact. The World book clearly states all of the Kings I mentioned, and clearly states that the King in the North married the daughter of each foe he vanquished. Albeit this obviously happened at different times, they slowly absorbed all the magical and royal elements of the North, becoming the TRUE Kings of Winter.

Also it's heavily, heavily foreshadowed that the Reeds are kin to Children of the Forest. And there is also the "Oath of Ice and Fire" that the Reeds renew with Winterfell, that is obviously ancient and carries a lot of meaning.

[RoamingRonin]

well what you said is exactly what I said. I never said they were going to manifest any sort of magical powers, other than the ones we already have.

I mean having all 6 Stark children become wargs is more than just coincidence. Everything we know about warging seems that the gift, if passed down at all, is rare. However, all of the Starks have the chance of being a warg, only the 6 Stark children we meet in the series are the ones who NEEDED it. Ned and his siblings did not, they had their own destinies.

Also me saying that Starks married into magical blood isn't a theory, it's fact. The World book clearly states all of the Kings I mentioned, and clearly states that the King in the North married the daughter of each foe he vanquished. Albeit this obviously happened at different times, they slowly absorbed all the magical and royal elements of the North, becoming the TRUE Kings of Winter.

Also it's heavily, heavily foreshadowed that the Reeds are kin to Children of the Forest. And there is also the "Oath of Ice and Fire" that the Reeds renew with Winterfell, that is obviously ancient and carries a lot of meaning.

I don't think that means the Starks have the blood of every species and family in the north as I said in my post. The Reeds being part Children of the Forest isn't foreshadowed... hinted, maybe, but I still don't think they are. I agree, their oath means something, but I don't think it means they have Children of the Forest blood in their veins.

As for all 6 Stark kids being wargs... well, that's called plot. You said it yourself: they need to be wargs. And that's because the plot requires it. That's not a criticism of the story, I totally accept what GRRM is doing with them. But I don't think it hints at anything else.

[sciteacher]

I'm not inclined to believe the Starks have a mix of every species from the north in their lineage. If anything, various families of the north intermixed with different races. The Mormont are particularly hairy which leads me to believe they somehow managed to mix with the Ibbense. It's possible some families of the north have giants blood but I don't think the Starks are one of them. The crannogmen could have mated with the Children but I think it's highly unlikely. I believe their stature comes from how their diet and environment. Since they keep to themselves, their prominent traits (like short height and slight bodies) pass from generation to generation.

The Mormonts are associated with bears. Their house seat is on Bear Island, which was won by Rodrik Stark in a wrestling match and given to the Mormonts. It's located on Bear Island, a place with lots of bears and trees.

Jeor Mormont, Lord commander of the Night's Watch is called "the Old Bear"

His son Jorah Mormont wears dark green with a black bear standing on two legs.

Jeor's sister is said to sleep with bears, a story she relishes enough to repeat it herself.

Some people think the Mormont were/became skinchangers who specialized in bears.

[LordImp]

Not the Targaryens but the Valyrians. "The blood of Old Valyria" is "the blood of the dragon". The Targaryens call back to the old empire. That's why people view them as being the most magical. Valyria was a magical place (to say the least).

EDIT: It's not just 1 magical property... The Valyrians were big into fire and blood magic. They made Valyrian steel swords. They used their powers to fuse stone and build wonders. It wasn't just all about draonriding with them.

I'm not inclined to believe the Starks have a mix of every species from the north in their lineage. If anything, various families of the north intermixed with different races. The Mormont are particularly hairy which leads me to believe they somehow managed to mix with the Ibbense. It's possible some families of the north have giants blood but I don't think the Starks are one of them. The crannogmen could have mated with the Children but I think it's highly unlikely. I believe their stature comes from how their diet and environment. Since they keep to themselves, their prominent traits (like short height and slight bodies) pass from generation to generation.

The First Men didn't become greenseers by breeding with the Children: they were taught. And so they passed that trait to their children and so on. As for Other blood.. I personally believe the Others can't breed. Their "race" is so associated with death I can't imagine them being able to produce life.

Anyhow, this is all sort of moot? Just because you have lots of special magical blood doesn't mean you will manifest special magical powers. Viserys was no "true" dragon but Dany is. All the Stark children are wargs but Ned and his siblings were not. Personally, I always saw the Starks as being just as special and magical as the Targaryens. It is a song of ice and fire, after all. :)

It could be that the Others are able to breed , but i agree that it's unlikely they can. We have stories of the Nights King though , so there are maybe some female Others out their.

But i could be that the Stark's got the Others the same way Targs get dragonblood. The Targs didnt mate with dragons , but used some blood magic and the Stark's did the same just with other blood. Thats what i belive.

[RoamingRonin]

It could be that the Others are able to breed , but i agree that it's unlikely they can. We have stories of the Nights King though , so there are maybe some female Others out their.

But i could be that the Stark's got the Others the same way Targs get dragonblood. The Targs didnt mate with dragons , but used some blood magic and the Stark's did the same just with other blood. Thats what i belive.

I wonder if that's just a story of a guy who kept a wight woman (perhaps because he loved her and wouldn't let her go) that got twisted over time.

The reason I don't think anyone has Other blood is because... well, I don't think you want anything of the Others in your lineage. Not even a drop of their blood, if they even have blood...

[LordImp]

I wonder if that's just a story of a guy who kept a wight woman (perhaps because he loved her and wouldn't let her go) that got twisted over time.

The reason I don't think anyone has Other blood is because... well, I don't think you want anything of the Others in your lineage. Not even a drop of their blood, if they even have blood...

Thats the great twist. The honourable and good Stark's actually has the blood of the worst creatures that exist.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Thats the great twist. The honourable and good Stark's actually has the blood of the worst creatures that exist.

^^ exactly.

I wonder if that's just a story of a guy who kept a wight woman (perhaps because he loved her and wouldn't let her go) that got twisted over time.

The reason I don't think anyone has Other blood is because... well, I don't think you want anything of the Others in your lineage. Not even a drop of their blood, if they even have blood...

I'm sure you have heard of the heresy threads within this forum. The only thing I can really do is point you in their direction.

I mean what we have here is a fundamental belief (yours) that there basically is no magical blood with the story. Where I'm saying that the magical blood could be just an explanation for certain things within the plot.

Like for instance you said all Stark kids became wargs because "plot". Well why did they become wargs? And how did all of them become wargs when it's supposed to be kinda rare? If you can't answer these questions within the story, that would be known as a "plot hole". I mean you can't just do something and say "well the story needed it, so i did it without any reason or explanation." GRRM doesn't work like that.

Also, why would the world book make it a point to tell of the Warg King, Barrow King, and Marsh Kings and also outline that the Starks MARRIED INTO EACH OF THESE FAMILIES. Things are there for a reason.

[Avlonnic]

Thats the great twist. The honourable and good Stark's actually has the blood of the worst creatures that exist.

Why would you believe the Others are the "worst creatures that exist"? They are scary and alien but this world is full of vile, cruel, destructive creatures...some of them are even men. Valyrians, dragons, and R'hllor followers sacrificing and burning people are hardly 'good' or benevolent.

[Avlonnic]

<snip>

The First Men didn't become greenseers by breeding with the Children: they were taught. And so they passed that trait to their children and so on. As for Other blood.. I personally believe the Others can't breed. Their "race" is so associated with death I can't imagine them being able to produce life. <snip>

:)

Small correction from ADWD, Bran III:

He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. "Will this make me a greenseer?"

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

[melx]

sure they are, not just that they are more magical they are more honorable too!

just ask Targ loyalist in Riverlands and all magical/honorable thing Ned Stark did to them.

[LordImp]

Why would you believe the Others are the "worst creatures that exist"? They are scary and alien but this world is full of vile, cruel, destructive creatures...some of them are even men. Valyrians, dragons, and R'hllor followers sacrificing and burning people are hardly 'good' or benevolent.

Thats ture. I was just trying to make a point.

[RoamingRonin]

Small correction from ADWD, Bran III:

He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. "Will this make me a greenseer?"

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

That's not a correction. I know that line and I use it any time people argue that the Targaryens don't have magical blood because they believe magic isn't hereditary :). The First Men were taught the ways of the Children of the Forest and those abilities are passed down through the generations. As Brynden says, Bran's blood makes him a greenser but it is the paste that will awaken his powers.

Perhaps it is that all races carry the "greenseer gene" but it is only the paste that awakens truly their powers. But, no, I don't think you have to have blood from the Children of the Forest in your line to become a greenseer.

[OberynBlackfyre]

That's not a correction. I know that line and I use it any time people argue that the Targaryens don't have magical blood because they believe magic isn't hereditary :). The First Men were taught the ways of the Children of the Forest and those abilities are passed down through the generations. As Brynden says, Bran's blood makes him a greenser but it is the paste that will awaken his powers.

Perhaps it is that all races carry the "greenseer gene" but it is only the paste that awakens truly their powers. But, no, I don't think you have to have blood from the Children of the Forest in your line to become a greenseer.

Given how GRRM works, I think hereditary genes are going to come into play even more. I mean we already have the whole Baratheon/Lannister genetic thing, now Bran with the whole Greenseer thing.

I'm just saying that by your reckoning....being a greenseer isn't about genetics, it's about being taught....but how would you explain Jojen and Bran then? No one "taught" them, it was just there in their genes. SO even if the First Men were "taught", the fact that they can STILL become greenseers proves it's at least a LITTLE genetics, am i right?