Anyone else really hate the Militant Faith?

[TheNiggardlyBastard]

I know Cersei is a cunt, and has committed murder after murder, but for some reason it still pisses me off that the Militant Faith thinks that they can do whatever they want. I don't know...It's strange, but I am starting to despise the Militant Faith more than I did Joffery. Is there something wrong with me?

[Stannis Inc]

Hmm I say it depends on who you back... For example if you prefer the Northmen to the free cities than you likely back the old gods instead of the faiths religious view or R'hillor. I assume that's what it is but I'm not psychiatrist so I'm not entirely sure.. It was just a guess.

[The Holy Goat]

I will never be able to support any institution founed on the basis of promoting religious teachings. Particularily when one branch is said institution is militarized. SO no, I can'r say I like the Faith Militant. I find them interesting to read about, and the High SParrow is entertaining, but thier mere presence makes my goatee quiver in dread for the upheaval they will bring.

I feel no sympathy for Cersei though, because she's even worse than they are.

[ErasmusF]

Well, they were pretty much noted as a huge problem in the past throughout the books. I am not sure that's because they interfered with nobles or they were fairly Draconian in their measures. I am guessing some combination of the two.

[Rickon will return]

Is it possible to like them?

[ErasmusF]

Dany thinks she's going to be all secret notes and unicorn stickers with the Faith Militant.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

We do not really know much about how the Faith Militant operated in the past, even from AWoiaF. The rebellion that got them outlawed was caused by the stupidity of Aenys I, who did not understand the customs of the people he ruled and messed up badly on the religious-political scene, leading to the rebellion. Maegor the Cruel handled that rebellion pretty badly and the compromise with Jaehaerys the Conciliator was what ended the Faith Militant.

In the series, the Faith are a caricature of what they are in the book, where they are much more nuanced. In the early books, the faith are shown as mostly ineffectual, worldly and subservient to the secular authorities. It is only when the War of the Five Kings really spills out of control that the Faith, from a grassroots source, takes a more active role, and they are primarily concerned with the well-being of the smallfolk, who have gotten a raw deal from Our Heroes (and Our Villains) from Book One. The things they really are worried about in terms of Cercei's trial is kinslaying (the worst one) and murder of a High Septon (nearly as bad). The infidelity part of her trial is definitely their second priority from those two. They also do not like incest, nonmarital relations (bastards are bad, m'ok?) and gambling. While they certainly do not like homosexuality there is nothing like the concerns the rather US conservative religion-influenced portrayal of the Faith the series have with it. The Faith of the books is not big on sharing spiritual power (R'hollor is "A Red Demon" and Stannis is considered an apostate), but have started no religious wars on the Old Gods worshippers since their earliest days of the Andal invasion. They have a odd belief in Trial By Combat.

So so far, the Faith and its militant arms in the books don't really seem to be much worse from our perspective than the secular rulers of Westeros. They don't arrest Loras Tyrell for homosexuality or beat the crap out of whores and brothel-keepers. They release Margaery Tyrell when it becomes apparent that the case against her is weak. So I don't really see the hate - they have their sympathetic sides and their less sympathetic sides, but the secular rulers are every way as bad and in many cases much, much worse. I can see them going darker from now on, though, depending on how the Cercei trial turns out and how much power they'll accumulate under the High Sparrow. I doubt they'll applause FrankenGregor if he fights (and likely wins) the trial by combat Cercei is gunning for.

[DigUpHerBones]

I hate the story because it reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition/Dark Ages.

A period that almost destroyed humanity.

Only this time, we are kind of forced to "cheer" for the extremist terrorists.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

The Faith more resemble a high medieval papal reformist movement and the investiture contest (although the issue is not the investiture of Septons....) than they do the Inquisition. And have practically no early medieval ties, although a case could be made for them resembling the quieter periods of the byzantine church at the start of the novels when they are subservient to the king.

Neither the Spanish Inquisition (during the early modern period) nor the early medieval period can in any way be said to have come near to destroying humanity, either. The Spanish Inquisition was pretty hard on the Marranos and Moriscoes as well as heretics, but they were also a political tool of the spanish monarchy. Which is not the case of the Faith. And the catholic church was pretty weak during the early medieval period.

[mediterraneo]

I hate the story because it reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition/Dark Ages.

A period that almost destroyed humanity.

Only this time, we are kind of forced to "cheer" for the extremist terrorists.

You are not forced to cheer!!

And don't get too scared about spanish inquisition.

It wasn't that worse of the main branch of it, just responding to the royals of Castille and not to the pope.

Not the only witch hunters in Europe, nor the worse of the religious or confessional violence.

War of the Thirty Years killed half of the population in Germany.

But hey, the Sparrows are very far from there in sectarian violence...yet.

By the way: I am under suspicion as a Jaime Lannister fanboy, but I cannot stand them sparrows even a little bit, excluding the ones isolated in their monastries not trying to organize pogroms on anyone.

[Whitering]

I have no idea why Mace allowed them to arrest much less agree to a trial of his daughter, or why Kevan would allow the same for Cersei. Setting this kind of precedent means nothing good for Westeros and they should have crushed it when they still had the chance.

[DarkSister1001]

I will never be able to support any institution founed on the basis of promoting religious teachings. Particularily when one branch is said institution is militarized. SO no, I can'r say I like the Faith Militant. I find them interesting to read about, and the High SParrow is entertaining, but thier mere presence makes my goatee quiver in dread for the upheaval they will bring.

I feel no sympathy for Cersei though, because she's even worse than they are.

:agree: (cept for the goatee)

[Agamemnon]

I have no idea why Mace allowed them to arrest much less agree to a trial of his daughter, or why Kevan would allow the same for Cersei. Setting this kind of precedent means nothing good for Westeros and they should have crushed it when they still had the chance.

The problem is all the smallfolk in KL, there are damn near a million people who have fled the war in the Riverlands and have grown to accept the faith more and more as they give them food and preach against the wars and the Lords that caused them. If Mace or Kevan destroyed the Faith Militant, or slaughtered all the sparrows and got their captives (Marge and Cersei) back [which they could have done easily with the forces they had] it would be to precipitate another riot in the city, perhaps an overthrow of the powers that be.

I think all the Lords are gradually coming to respect the power the smallfolk have when they band together, thats why they wont risk a fight with the church. Of course if Margery was sentenced, im not sure Mace would hold back, he would storm the Sept and demand her release.

I personally have no problem with the FM, they seem to be genuinely interested in the good of the people. Sure they promote ignorance among the populace, but so do all of those traditional sources of power (High Lords, Maesters, ect..). They do seem a little over-concerned with morality, but nobody is perfect, and I believe once they achieve the Total Power they are gunning for they will become more lax.

Also :

I hate the story because it reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition/Dark Ages.

A period that almost destroyed humanity.

Only this time, we are kind of forced to "cheer" for the extremist terrorists.

The Dark Ages and Inquisition, while no fun for Europe, didnt do squat to humanity as a whole. In the Islamic world and Chinese empire, science and learning was at an all time high for the world during these periods. And I do not see the Faith Militant as Terrorists, more like the Holy Warriors of the Crusades. They are trying to bring peace through warfare; pretty much the only way anyone in this world knows how to do it.

[Net-Viper X]

I hope Robert Strong butchers the lot of them, hate religious fanatics with a passion.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

I personally have no problem with the FM, they seem to be genuinely interested in the good of the people. Sure they promote ignorance among the populace, but so do all of those traditional sources of power (High Lords, Maesters, ect..). They do seem a little over-concerned with morality, but nobody is perfect, and I believe once they achieve the Total Power they are gunning for they will become more lax.

Also :

The Dark Ages and Inquisition, while no fun for Europe, didnt do squat to humanity as a whole. In the Islamic world and Chinese empire, science and learning was at an all time high for the world during these periods. And I do not see the Faith Militant as Terrorists, more like the Holy Warriors of the Crusades. They are trying to bring peace through warfare; pretty much the only way anyone in this world knows how to do it.

Plus, of course, the Dark Ages in Europe weren't nearly as dark as most people have been taught. They also laid the groundwork for the establishment of the rise of the high medieval universities, many of whom still exist today, that established a pattern for higher learning that didn't really exist before and have ended up evolving into what is today the main centres of learning. So dominant has the university model become as a pattern for centres of science and the humanities that earlier centres of higher learning in other parts of the world that have also survived these days pattern themselves on them and claim that they have been universities since their founding. Their predeccessors would not have recognized that distinction, though, and would probably have hotly argued that they were in no way european-style universities.

In many ways, Westeros' system of Maester training is quite primitive, where the only source on higher learning that is not based on craftsmen's associations like the Alchemists' guild is The Citadel. That is a pretty inflexible and fragile system, and they protect their rights and privilegues (as well as their right to cencor their members) quite hotly, it seems.

In general, I don't get the hate on the Faith either, as noted above. Most people here seem to be heavily biased by their modern attitudes toward religion and do not recognize that the Faith, so far (again, in the books, in the series they seem to be heavily influenced by modern religious conservatism) haven't really done all that much we would see as wrong, except putting Margaery & co on trial as adulterers (and then releasing them pre-trial because of spotty evidence), which is as much a function of the way Westeros society works as anything else - any society based on lineages is going to be extremely concerned about who is whose child. And Cercei is the Sevendamned Queen Mother.... Compared to the Cercei, whose murdering, mock trials, false evidence and political bungling only classifies her as a "cunt" according to the OP, the Faith have not really - so far - done anything to warrant people wanting them all to be butchered.

[Whitering]

The problem is all the smallfolk in KL, there are damn near a million people who have fled the war in the Riverlands and have grown to accept the faith more and more as they give them food and preach against the wars and the Lords that caused them. If Mace or Kevan destroyed the Faith Militant, or slaughtered all the sparrows and got their captives (Marge and Cersei) back [which they could have done easily with the forces they had] it would be to precipitate another riot in the city, perhaps an overthrow of the powers that be.

I think all the Lords are gradually coming to respect the power the smallfolk have when they band together, thats why they wont risk a fight with the church. Of course if Margery was sentenced, im not sure Mace would hold back, he would storm the Sept and demand her release.

I personally have no problem with the FM, they seem to be genuinely interested in the good of the people. Sure they promote ignorance among the populace, but so do all of those traditional sources of power (High Lords, Maesters, ect..). They do seem a little over-concerned with morality, but nobody is perfect, and I believe once they achieve the Total Power they are gunning for they will become more lax.

Also :

The Dark Ages and Inquisition, while no fun for Europe, didnt do squat to humanity as a whole. In the Islamic world and Chinese empire, science and learning was at an all time high for the world during these periods. And I do not see the Faith Militant as Terrorists, more like the Holy Warriors of the Crusades. They are trying to bring peace through warfare; pretty much the only way anyone in this world knows how to do it.

The last riot was contained by a few Kingsguard and some poorly prepared Gold Cloaks. Mace has TWO armies and the Gold Cloaks are now veterans and being well trained for once. I don't see this as a problem.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

The last riot was a total disaster that left two knights, nine gold cloaks, the High Septon, possibly Tywin's nephew Tyrek (he disappeared) and an unnamed number of smallfolk dead. Lollys Stokeworth was raped, Sansa Stark - the queen-to-be at the time - was almost raped and/or killed and 40 gold cloaks were wounded. The riot was never suppressed, it just died down and forced the gold cloaks to enforce a harsh curfew. The Faith now has an army of both Swords and Stars, and the smallfolk will now have guidance from the High Sparrow so that any riot will not just be a disorganized release of frustration. In addition, the population of the city has swelled greatly due to the refugee situation, most of whom are not fans of the nobility. Don't confuse the series and the books.

[Whitering]

The last riot was a total disaster that left two knights, nine gold cloaks, the High Septon, possibly Tywin's nephew Tyrek (he disappeared) and an unnamed number of smallfolk dead. Lollys Stokeworth was raped, Sansa Stark - the queen-to-be at the time - was almost raped and/or killed and 40 gold cloaks were wounded. The riot was never suppressed, it just died down and forced the gold cloaks to enforce a harsh curfew. The Faith now has an army of both Swords and Stars, and the smallfolk will now have guidance from the High Sparrow so that any riot will not just be a disorganized release of frustration. In addition, the population of the city has swelled greatly due to the refugee situation, most of whom are not fans of the nobility. Don't confuse the series and the books.

I haven't watched more than a couple episodes of the show, and certainly not the riot episode.

I presume if you were going to launch an attack on the Faith, you would not leave your nobility wandering around the streets at the time, so much like you point out that the crowd would be better organized this time, I already pointed out that so would the nobility.

[the Scorpion Knight]

TBH: i don't hate the Sword and stars. I just dislike them. I dread and loathe the head of them, a powerhungry fanatic, The high Sparrow

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

What exactly has the High Sparrow done that warrant your dread so far?

I haven't watched more than a couple episodes of the show, and certainly not the riot episode.

I presume if you were going to launch an attack on the Faith, you would not leave your nobility wandering around the streets at the time, so much like you point out that the crowd would be better organized this time, I already pointed out that so would the nobility.

Then you should know the riot was a big deal.

The last time there was a major faith-secular conflict in Westeros, they got seven years of war and massive unrest everywhere - and a lot of the nobility sided with the Faith. That was with a Targaryen king with dragons for support. Somehow I think even The Lord Oaf of Highgarden would think twice about that.