Did Joffrey choke?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

TL, DR: what if Pycelle lied about poison to get Tyrion killed?

I just posted this elsewhere but I thought it merited its own thread. Ferocious Veldt Roarer has already raised a good objection, but I don't believe the below theory can be discounted on its basis.

Says Tywin,

“Poison. It was meant to appear as though he choked on a morsel of food, but I had his throat slit open and the maesters could find no obstruction.”

The point of contention here is whether Tywin personally supervised this procedure, or simply ordered it be done and had a report presented to him by "the maesters". In other words, can Tywin guarantee the report's accuracy, or even that there was more than one maester present?

Tywin's a canny fellow, so he may have wanted to see things with his own eyes; on the other hand, he's an aristocrat, so he may have preferred to simply give the order.

Personally, it could go either way. But what I don't doubt is that if Tywin ordered "the maesters" to do something, he's speaking of the maesters as an organisation. And if the Hand of the King wants something from that organisation, his order will go directly to his fellow Small Council member, the Grand motherfuckin' Maester himself...

Pycelle! A known liar with experience in deadly schemes, and who holds a grudge against...

Tyrion! Who was arrested for regicide before the autopsy was even performed, having been immediately accused of Joffrey's poisoning by none other than...

Cersei! Who - wait, she doesn't have anything to do with this.

But let's say Pycelle was the only one in the room during the autopsy. The King is dead, a man you hate has been already been accused of poisoning him, and everyone's gonna believe whatever you say. Why not take the opportunity to get some revenge and take out a rival?

It's all speculation, of course, but it can't be disproved unless we can show that Pycelle definitely wasn't alone with the body.

There are other possible wrinkles to the theory:

• Maybe there were other maesters present, but they went along with it because Joffrey's regicide helped further some goal the Citadel has.
  
• Maybe there were other maesters present, but Pycelle has enough power on his own to ensure their silence and compliance
  
• Maybe there were others present, even including Tywin, and they genuinely found no food in Joffrey's throat, because Pycelle had already snuck in there with a pair of tweezers and fished it out
  
• Maybe Pycelle was acting on Cersei's orders: we know she falsified other evidence against Tyrion, and she's crazy enough to think Tyrion guilty even if she manufactured all the evidence.
  

These don't necessarily invalidate the theory, but they strike me as too convoluted and tin-foily. The idea that Pycelle would lie to get revenge on Tyrion, though? Well, baby, that's plausible as hell.

Thoughts? Good reactions, etc?

[Lady Blackmont]

The show makes this seem unlikely, and something this important should exist in both continuities.

[DigUpHerBones]

Pycelle was the ultimate Lannister supporter...

Like it or not when Jamie took the White, Tyrion became Heir to The Rock.

Pycelle was certainly no idiot and would have to have known House Lannister's best chance was with Tyrion around.

[Lady Blackmont]

There are so many Lannisters hanging in the Westerlands... second only to the Frey's, and maybe the Tyrells.

[SeanF]

It's clear from LF's conversation with Sansa that it was poison.

It was meant to look as though Joffrey had choked. But, as Martin has said, Cersei wasn't fooled for one moment.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It's clear from LF's conversation with Sansa that it was poison.

It was meant to look as though Joffrey had choked. But, as Martin has said, Cersei wasn't fooled for one moment.

:agree: Cersei was just too blinded by her hatred of and personal fear of Tyrion to suss out who the real killer was.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

It's clear from LF's conversation with Sansa that it was poison.

It was meant to look as though Joffrey had choked. But, as Martin has said, Cersei wasn't fooled for one moment.

Ah, see, I still have a fondness for the idea that Littlefinger was just lying to Sansa to bind her to him more closely. See http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129589-littlefinger-was-lying-about-the-purple-wedding/for more on that.

Of course, you're probably right. But... well, we can dream, right?

[Hoppy Hour]

Pycelle was the ultimate Lannister supporter...

Like it or not when Jamie took the White, Tyrion became Heir to The Rock.

Pycelle was certainly no idiot and would have to have known House Lannister's best chance was with Tyrion around.

Tywin never for Tyrion to be the heir to The Rock. A Jaime released from his vows, or Cersei, but no Tyrion as Lord of Casterly Rock. And having him accused of killing Joffrey served lord Tywin pretty well.

[RedShirt47]

The "purple snakes in her hair" prophesy points to poison.

The lack of obstruction in his throat points to poison.

The confession of LF to Sansa points to poison.

Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn with LF's assistance points to Joff being poisoned also.

I go with poisoning as that's where most evidence points.

[GuardstheRealmsofMen]

This is from an article Martin gave about the Purple Wedding. He talks about both the show and the book, but this is referring to the book:

"I don’t know how it comes across in the show, because I haven’t actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey’s death was to make it look like an accident – someone’s out celebrating, they haven’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it’s very serious."

As I bolded above, Martin confirms that poison was used to kill Joff, it just looks like choking.

Link to the full article below.

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed

[Ser Greg of House House]

This is a prime example of overthinking stuff after reading. Theories, information etc. are useful, but there's one thing to keep in mind: these are books and there's narrative involved.

Martin is telling a story. This trumps everything else.

When you read the books, it's pretty clear he introduces the poison earlier, then Joffrey dies of similar symptoms. A lot of things are technically possible, but if the way Martin is telling the story points one way, why should we doubt it? A red herring here would have no value at all.

[Davos's Missing Fingers]

It's clear from LF's conversation with Sansa that it was poison.

It was meant to look as though Joffrey had choked. But, as Martin has said, Cersei wasn't fooled for one moment.

While I agree with you that Littlefinger was behind this one, it's not unheard of for him to seize on other things and spin them off in entirely different directions. Look at the whole "Bran Assassination" plot where he claims the dagger was originally his, but he lost it in a bet to Tyrion. That dagger was just in Robert's armory, it never was Littlefinger's.

[John Suburbs]

Pycelle was more than just a Lannister supporter, he was a Tywin Lannister support, even to the point of lying to and double-crossing other Lannisters. So no, I have no doubt the autopsy was as he said.

This is also the reason I think many people misinterpret the SSM that Guards posted to imply that the intent of the plot was to make Joffrey's death look like an accident. Any plotter as sharp as Littlefinger and Lady O would know that an autopsy would be done on the king and it would show there was no pie in his throat. Plus, we have the fact that Sansa has suddenly disappeared, so there is no way they could think they could make the death look like an accident. And if the plan was to kill Joffrey and frame Tyrion, why bother at all? A more obvious poison would accomplish both goals.

Also, if you want someone to think you are choking on pie, why would you put the poison in his wine? Sure, there's a chance that he could be eating and drinking at the same time, but there is an equal chance that he won't be.

These are some of the (many many) reasons why I think the poison was in the pie, not the wine, and that the real target was Tyrion, not Joffrey.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I just thought of an objection to my own theory: if Pycelle did perform the autopsy solo, and lied about it, then there's basically no way for us to ever find out if it was true or not because

he's dead as fuck

This is from an article Martin gave about the Purple Wedding. He talks about both the show and the book, but this is referring to the book:

"I don’t know how it comes across in the show, because I haven’t actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey’s death was to make it look like an accident – someone’s out celebrating, they haven’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it’s very serious."

As I bolded above, Martin confirms that poison was used to kill Joff, it just looks like choking.

Link to the full article below.

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed

Well, that ruins my fun. I suppose it's possible that he may change his mind and ret-con a new scenario in future books... I'm grasping at straws, aren't I?

Pycelle was more than just a Lannister supporter, he was a Tywin Lannister support, even to the point of lying to and double-crossing other Lannisters. So no, I have no doubt the autopsy was as he said.

Uh... that's exactly right, but isn't that just a reason why he might lie? I mean, the "other Lannisters" he lied to and double-crossed was Tyrion. Who humiliated him, threatened to have his balls chopped off and threw him in a dungeon.

This is also the reason I think many people misinterpret the SSM that Guards posted to imply that the intent of the plot was to make Joffrey's death look like an accident. Any plotter as sharp as Littlefinger and Lady O would know that an autopsy would be done on the king and it would show there was no pie in his throat. Plus, we have the fact that Sansa has suddenly disappeared, so there is no way they could think they could make the death look like an accident. And if the plan was to kill Joffrey and frame Tyrion, why bother at all? A more obvious poison would accomplish both goals.

"I think that’s what the murderers here were hoping for – the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something." - GRRM

It's hard to see that statement as one that's being misinterpreted. Evidently Joffrey was the target, not Tyrion. I agree that killing Joffrey to frame Tyrion is too convoluted, which is why I suppose that the initial reaction we all had reading it might be the true one: that Tyrion's arrest is just bad luck. Or, to refer to that SSM, it's a consequence of his having a big mouth.

Also, if Tyrion died and Sansa disappeared, wouldn't poison naturally be suspected anyway? Surely those two things wouldn't be seen as a coincidence?

Also, if you want someone to think you are choking on pie, why would you put the poison in his wine? Sure, there's a chance that he could be eating and drinking at the same time, but there is an equal chance that he won't be.

This is an exceptionally good point, but if we accept what Martin said in the above SSM - which I'd prefer not to, because I just spent ages writing up a theory that ends with Pycelle lying about the poison, but what the hell... where was I? Ah yes, if the intention was for Joffrey to be seen to choke to death, then you're right that it'd be better to poison his food than his drink. What you might have here, sir, is a bona-fide plot hole. Dum dum dum!!!!

[Beautiful Balon]

he's dead as fuck

Nothing Quyburn can't fix

[John Suburbs]

Uh... that's exactly right, but isn't that just a reason why he might lie? I mean, the "other Lannisters" he lied to and double-crossed was Tyrion. Who humiliated him, threatened to have his balls chopped off and threw him in a dungeon.

But it wasn't a lie. Joffrey did in fact die from the Strangler, just like Cressen. Same purple crystal, same symptoms. Pycelle is simply not going to lie to Tywin, and there is no reason to think Tywin wanted Tyrion dead. It's through Tyrion that he hopes to secure the North.

"I think that’s what the murderers here were hoping for – the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something." - GRRM

It's hard to see that statement as one that's being misinterpreted. Evidently Joffrey was the target, not Tyrion. I agree that killing Joffrey to frame Tyrion is too convoluted, which is why I suppose that the initial reaction we all had reading it might be the true one: that Tyrion's arrest is just bad luck. Or, to refer to that SSM, it's a consequence of his having a big mouth.

I'm pretty sure the quote you have referred to the show, not the book. And in the show, Lady O tells Margaery point blank that she intended to kill Joffrey. But as we all know by now, the show can in no way be used to prove or disprove anything in the books.

Also, if Tyrion died and Sansa disappeared, wouldn't poison naturally be suspected anyway? Surely those two things wouldn't be seen as a coincidence?

Yes, and the same would go for Joffrey. There is no way in the world LF or Lady O would think they could make it look like an accident because a) a simple autopsy would prove otherwise and b ) Sansa has gone missing. So again, the SSM is gobbledeegook.

This is an exceptionally good point, but if we accept what Martin said in the above SSM - which I'd prefer not to, because I just spent ages writing up a theory that ends with Pycelle lying about the poison, but what the hell... where was I? Ah yes, if the intention was for Joffrey to be seen to choke to death, then you're right that it'd be better to poison his food than his drink. What you might have here, sir, is a bona-fide plot hole. Dum dum dum!!!!

Sorry, but there is no plot hole. It's just too obvious for a careful writer like Martin. The fact the Joffrey took perhaps four times longer to die from the Strangler than Cressen; that LF could not have possibly predicted all the twists and turns that Joff, Tyrion and the chalice made to end up right in front of Garlen or Leonette to drop the poison; that both LF and LO had every reason in the world to kill Tyrion and none at all the kill Joff -- in fact, every reason to keep Joff alive; that the wine turns from red to purple to red and back to purple during the entire sequence; that Lady O would never in a million years poison the wine that both Joff and Margaery were likely to drink from... I could go on and on.

People use SSMs as a crutch, but the words are so cagey and the context so suspect that they simply can't be taken seriously. GRRM has even gotten things wrong in his own SSMs, like the whole Lion's Paw/Claw/Tooth thing.

[oursisthefury69]

this might be literally the most absurd thing i've ever seen on this place, typical "oh you can't disprove this so here's a theory" like yea its not impossible as long as he choked and died in unison with his planned poisoning, as revealed by other characters, and that his choking just entirely parralled Cessen being killed with the same poison

[Clegane'sPup]

this might be literally the most absurd thing i've ever seen on this place, typical "oh you can't disprove this so here's a theory" like yea its not impossible as long as he choked and died in unison with his planned poisoning, as revealed by other characters, and that his choking just entirely parralled Cessen being killed with the same poison

Do you think Joffery choked or was he poisoned? Myself, I have settled on poison, I'm just trying to decide on the who, what, when and why. If there has been a post that gives that info beyond a reasonable doubt please clue me in. Recently a poster started a thread about Weirwood thrones. My curious nature gave me reason to ask a few questions. So, hey, WOW won't be out anytime soon, something to look at during the long hot summer.

[John Suburbs]

The answer is right on the page: Joffrey was poisoned, but the poison was in the pie, not the wine. So therefore the real target was Tyrion, not Joffrey. Even a casual review of all the evidence proves this beyond a reasonable doubt -- beyond any and all doubt actually.

If this has piqued your interest, let me know and I'll explain the who, what, when and why, starting with the fact that LF and LO had every reason in the world to kill Tyrion and none whatsoever to kill Joffrey, but I'm already knee-deep in a debate on this subject on another thread so I'll leave this one here.

[Beacon]

I personally think that it was Cersei trying to kill Tyrion but it accidentally resulted in the death of Joffrey. She saw that Tyrion was about to gain both the North and the Westerlands. Then she poisoned the Tyrion's wine, but Joffrey drank out of it and died. LF just took the credit for it, just like he lied about the dagger and many, many more things...