Did Joffrey choke?

[Taenqyrhae]

In my opinion, Joffrey's death was either Tywin's "sharp lesson" after mocking his role in Robert's rebellion, or natural choking. No way it was the Strangler, too slow compared to when we've seen it used before unless...maybe a very small dose, or another poison?

[H.P.]

I personally think that it was Cersei trying to kill Tyrion but it accidentally resulted in the death of Joffrey. She saw that Tyrion was about to gain both the North and the Westerlands. Then she poisoned the Tyrion's wine, but Joffrey drank out of it and died. LF just took the credit for it, just like he lied about the dagger and many, many more things...

Don't you thinkt we would have known in her POV chapters, in that case?

[John Suburbs]

I personally think that it was Cersei trying to kill Tyrion but it accidentally resulted in the death of Joffrey. She saw that Tyrion was about to gain both the North and the Westerlands. Then she poisoned the Tyrion's wine, but Joffrey drank out of it and died. LF just took the credit for it, just like he lied about the dagger and many, many more things...

Umm, Joffrey did not drink Tyrion's wine, he drank his own. He did, however, eat Tyrion's pie...

[John Suburbs]

In my opinion, Joffrey's death was either Tywin's "sharp lesson" after mocking his role in Robert's rebellion, or natural choking. No way it was the Strangler, too slow compared to when we've seen it used before unless...maybe a very small dose, or another poison?

The strangler is only too slow if you assume that the poison was in the wine. With the poison in the pie the timelines are nearly synchronous.

You pair that with the fact that both Littlefinger and Lady O had every reason in the world to kill Tyrion and none whatsoever to kill Joffrey and you arrive at the only logical conclusion: that the poison was meant for Tyrion and Joffrey's death was an accident.

[The Lash]

Yes he choked, thanks to the poison.

[OberynBlackfyre]

TL, DR: what if Pycelle lied about poison to get Tyrion killed?

I just posted this elsewhere but I thought it merited its own thread. Ferocious Veldt Roarer has already raised a good objection, but I don't believe the below theory can be discounted on its basis.

Says Tywin,

“Poison. It was meant to appear as though he choked on a morsel of food, but I had his throat slit open and the maesters could find no obstruction.”

The point of contention here is whether Tywin personally supervised this procedure, or simply ordered it be done and had a report presented to him by "the maesters". In other words, can Tywin guarantee the report's accuracy, or even that there was more than one maester present?

Tywin's a canny fellow, so he may have wanted to see things with his own eyes; on the other hand, he's an aristocrat, so he may have preferred to simply give the order.

Personally, it could go either way. But what I don't doubt is that if Tywin ordered "the maesters" to do something, he's speaking of the maesters as an organisation. And if the Hand of the King wants something from that organisation, his order will go directly to his fellow Small Council member, the Grand motherfuckin' Maester himself...

Pycelle! A known liar with experience in deadly schemes, and who holds a grudge against...

Tyrion! Who was arrested for regicide before the autopsy was even performed, having been immediately accused of Joffrey's poisoning by none other than...

Cersei! Who - wait, she doesn't have anything to do with this.

But let's say Pycelle was the only one in the room during the autopsy. The King is dead, a man you hate has been already been accused of poisoning him, and everyone's gonna believe whatever you say. Why not take the opportunity to get some revenge and take out a rival?

It's all speculation, of course, but it can't be disproved unless we can show that Pycelle definitely wasn't alone with the body.

There are other possible wrinkles to the theory:

• Maybe there were other maesters present, but they went along with it because Joffrey's regicide helped further some goal the Citadel has.
• Maybe there were other maesters present, but Pycelle has enough power on his own to ensure their silence and compliance
• Maybe there were others present, even including Tywin, and they genuinely found no food in Joffrey's throat, because Pycelle had already snuck in there with a pair of tweezers and fished it out
• Maybe Pycelle was acting on Cersei's orders: we know she falsified other evidence against Tyrion, and she's crazy enough to think Tyrion guilty even if she manufactured all the evidence.

These don't necessarily invalidate the theory, but they strike me as too convoluted and tin-foily. The idea that Pycelle would lie to get revenge on Tyrion, though? Well, baby, that's plausible as hell.

Thoughts? Good reactions, etc?

hey man, was just wondering if you mind if I add this to my "Conspiracy of the Citadel" op? Ill give you full credit for making this, but just thought it would be interesting to add to the conspiracy theory!

Also, though Pycelle is a Grand Maester, I think he is still somewhat little regarded by the ACTUAL Citadel...or he's a really good mummer lol.

[OberynBlackfyre]

The strangler is only too slow if you assume that the poison was in the wine. With the poison in the pie the timelines are nearly synchronous.

You pair that with the fact that both Littlefinger and Lady O had every reason in the world to kill Tyrion and none whatsoever to kill Joffrey and you arrive at the only logical conclusion: that the poison was meant for Tyrion and Joffrey's death was an accident.

im sorry but where are you getting that LF AND Lady O had "every reason" to want to kill Tyrion?

[John Suburbs]

im sorry but where are you getting that LF AND Lady O had "every reason" to want to kill Tyrion?

Well, here we go again, but I warn you this is going to lead us down the Rabbit Hole.

The motives for both Littlefinger and Lady O are all wrong for Joffrey. Let's start with Littlefinger:

The man craves chaos, it's how he climbs the ladder of power. How does killing Joffrey produce more chaos than keeping him on the throne? That just puts Tywin in complete charge until Tommen starts to feel his oats while Joffrey would start causing all kinds of trouble, both within the Lannister household and the wider realm, right away.

You could argue that Joffrey's death led to the trial, which lead to Oberyn championing Tyrion, which led to Oberyn's death, which led to Dorne rising up in arms... But that is such a lengthy and convoluted series of events that it would be impossible to predict as an outcome. And either way, Oberyn's mere presence in the capital all but guaranteed that he would not leave without exacting some kind of revenge on the Lannisters, so there was no need to poison Joffrey to bring that about.

Why does LF want Tyrion dead? Because as Master of Coin he is now on the verge of unravelling all of LF's little schemes, and probably the fact that maybe half of the crown's debt is sitting in LF's account at the Iron Bank, the very same bank that is calling in the crown's debt.

Littlefinger has been trying to kill Tyrion since early in Game.

As for Lady O:

This is a little harder for many people to grasp, so bear with me. As the head of a feudal dynasty, Lady's O's primary concern is the continuation and flourishing of that dynasty. It is more important than herself or any member of her family, including Margaery. The biggest single fear of any house is invasion and overthrow by a rival house, particularly when that rival house has a penchant for burning crops from horizon to horizon, murdering smallfolk by the thousands and exterminating enemy houses to the last man, woman and child.

You know who I'm talking about. The thing is, for the entire 300-year span that the Tyrells have ruled Highhgarden, and for much longer under the Gardners, Highgarden had overwhelming military superiority over Casterly Rock. Highgarden could put 100,000 swords in the field in short order, as Renly showed, while Tywin could get maybe 30,000. But all that is changing. Casterly Rock now controls the Riverlands and will very soon have Riverrun. He has a pretty strong ally in the Freys backed by marriage, and he also has the Boltons in the north, who are not exactly reliable. The worst thing for Lady O and Highgarden is if Tywin were to have a firmer hold on the north -- say, the heir to Winterfell being a direct blood descendent of Tywin. Note that Highgarden's superiority does not come from itself alone, but from strong alliances backed by marriages and heirs of common blood with the Redwynes, the Hightowers and other principal houses in the Reach.

And how, exactly, would Tywin produce this next Lord of Winterfell? Well, first by killing off the sitting lord. And since the other two sons of Eddard Stark are dead as far as the world knows and Arya is missing and presumed dead, that leaves Sansa. I think you can put the rest together yourself.

The other side of the coin is that given Lady's O's primary duty to her house and not to herself or any single family member, Joffrey's death was a huge setback. Again, her goal is not to make sure that Margy has a happy and safe life. It's for her to produce a blood tie to the Iron Throne. That is what will enhance Tyrell fortunes more than anything. Naturally, by killing Joffrey and switching to Tommen, you push back the arrival of that heir at least five years, which is an eternity for a feudal society in the midst of a civil war.

So in this light, it should be clear to anyone, that killing Joffrey would have gained nothing for either Littlefinger or Lady O while killing Tyrion furthers both of their dynastic ambitions in very significant ways.

You put that together with both the physical discrepancies between Cressen and Joffrey poisonings, plus the logistical impossibility of knowing exactly where the chalice was going to be at the crucial moment for it to be poisoned -- when all eyes are on the pigeons -- only readers with the most blind hatred for Joffrey, who can't imagine that everyone in the story isn't itching to kill him for the way he treated dear, beloved Sansa, will cling to the fantasy that Joffrey was the target.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

hey man, was just wondering if you mind if I add this to my "Conspiracy of the Citadel" op? Ill give you full credit for making this, but just thought it would be interesting to add to the conspiracy theory!

Also, though Pycelle is a Grand Maester, I think he is still somewhat little regarded by the ACTUAL Citadel...or he's a really good mummer lol.

Yeah, go nuts. Happy to help.

What makes you say that about Pycelle?

[snip]

Oh Christ, not again, just link to the other thread

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129589-littlefinger-was-lying-about-the-purple-wedding/

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

OberynBlackfyre, just an FYI that link in your sig doesn't work