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Season 5 : Good but dissapointing?


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SPOILERS FOR SEASON 5 CONTAINED

Okay first of all I will say that I loved this season, as all seasons of the series. That being said, its the weakest chapter of the story thus far. Here is why, let me know if you agree with me. The pacing overall is slow, and the characters previously intelligent, careful and cunning, are now mind bogglingly stupid! The characters break realism in many ways, and the show runners ruin imporant figures.

Specific Points :


1) Tyrion : One of the most useful, important, pivotal, and interesting characters, has totally taken a back seat. I guess this may all just be setting up for what's to come, and he isn't the only character on the show. But still this is a drastic change from what we are used to.

2) Cersei : Really? You are going to arm a military in your own home town / capital comprised of radical religious zealots? You plan to have them arrest the Tyrell children, putting your alliance with The Reach and position of power in jeopardy? What good can come out of this? If she that hateful a bitch that she is willing to risk EVERYTHING to get Margaery killed? Doesn't she realize Mace is gonna be madder than the hatter from Alice in Wonderland, and he has a large well equipped army? This leads to point 3.

3) The Faith : Wow this is head scratching stuff. The have no formal military training, they have no armor, yet they successfully operate without penalty in the capitol of the whole realm. I get that the city gaurds aren't numerous, but damn you're the king Tommen. You have all the houses of the Crown Lands sworn to you, they aren't gonna lend some troops? I get that after his wife / queen is captured it becomes a hostage situation but before that he could've stopped it. Which leads me to another point, how in fucks name is it so easy for these faith bozos to incarceriate the heirs to high garden, where the bajeezus are all the Tyrell men at arms. Why would they go in alone to the hearing like that? Why didn't the gold cloaks intervene? In fact Loras should have not have even been arrested that easily, you would think the heir to High Garden and The Reach would have more body gaurds. If arresting nobles was so easy, kingdoms wouldn't exist.

4) Jamie : Really? You and one other guy are gonna rescue your "niece" daughter from the princedom of Dorne? No wait, that isn't the dumbest part, its the fact that they almost pulled it off!!! You would think the royal residence of the country / nation would have more security than a target store at least. These two jackasses just waltzed in unimpeded?! Why isn't there a gate and some look out towers? Dear god that is BAD writing, really bad. They should not have been able to get 500 feet within the couple let alone punching distance (I'm talking about you Bronn). The perfectly timed scuffle with the sand sand snakes was cartoonish, which brings me to point numero 5.

5) Sand Snakes / Ellaria : Even more hateful and vindictive than Cersei! So lets analyze the situation here. Tywin may have ordered the mountain to kill Oberyn's sister and her kids. Because of this, the man volunteers to fight the mountain and kills him, or so they think., but dies in the process. Tywin is later killed by his own kin, good job dwarf man, and so the two people that were or could have been responsible for the crimes against the Dornish are el gone-o. So what do the sand slu err snakes plan? Oh the little girl who has nothing at all to do with this and is betrothed to our nephew / cousin, that bitch is gettin it! These characters, like Cersei, are just not believable. Bad writing again IMO. And again the fact that they could get so close to the couple is unreal, and mind boggling. Lastly, they are masters of poison so uh why not use a poison dart or something from far away? Doran already made her beg for forgiveness, she is stupider than Cersei for poisoning Myrcella. She is stupider than an inbred chimpunk with a brain tumor! All of the sand snakes are. Don't they realize Doran will find out? Don't they realize this puts all of Dorne and their own lives in jeopardy? I mean that kiss was not exactly obscure. Martin could have thought of a better way to induce war between the kingdoms, if that's whats coming. Also Jaimie isn't even slighty irritated that the snakes and Ellaria tried to kill his daughter, he shows no hatred towards them.

6) Doran is spineless and kinda stupid. He takes too much shit from Ellaria, and should be a little bit madder that some sellsword and noble guy waltzed in and assaulted his son and heir. Send them both back to King's Landing? Come on now don't you care for the safety of your lineage? This is a stretch to say the least.

7) Arya : Too slow a story, very drab. Only gets interesting at the end.

8) Daeny : Again slow placed story, but at least it picks up towards the season's end where things get firey and dragony. I must say, as one of the few likable characters on the show, shes starting to show some of that targaryen madness. Why did she kill that guy who killed one of the masked ones? That was overboard, could've just thrown him in jail. Isn't that why we hate Jeoffery? Later she randomly, like a hypocrite, kills one of the rich rulers of Mereen without trial, really? So Drogon finally kicks some ass to save you at the end, then you ride off into dothraki territory and get captured, AGAIN! First stuck in a rut in Mereen for over a season now this crap, ugh. I can't be the only one not really interested in this story arc at this point.

9) Barriston wasted in an alley way fight, tsk tsk. This apparently doesn't happen in the books, wtf show runners? He could've went out with a bang in the fighting pit, much better way to go for the knight!

10) Stannis : Burns his own daughter at the stake? This is again, not fully believable. Same with Selyse for that matter. Its kinda against his character. I know he did his own brother in but he hadn't seen him in years and they weren't close at all. This is his only child. What was the whole point of that scene prior where he reminds her that she is a baratheon, and his blood? Oh and the finest military commander marches his army, in no formation at all, in the day time to attack winterfell? This crap is killing me.

11) Ramsay : Manages to torch Stannis's army with 20 men? The excuse being the Northeners know the land better...... they know the camp site better? Nonsensical hogwash! This is a huge stretch of the imagination, the gaurds must have been hitting the J.

Good Things :

1) Arya becomes a real badass above even the hound.

2) The whole Tyrion / Jorah duo thing was neat and interesting.

3) Drogo finally gets some action.

4) Cersei gets some well deserved punishment for her atrocious crimes.

5) The assault by the dead / white walkers on hard home was awesome and forboding.

6) The treaty between the wildings and the watch was cool.

7) Theon comes through in the knick of time, reek no more!

8) The wicked Stannis gets some Brienne treatment, who goes out like a boss.

9) Brienne's adventure with podrick is interesting and supplies some action where its lacking else where.

So yeah these are my quibs with the season, which again I sill throughly enjoyed. I was worried actually, before even the season began. The reason being the 4th and 5th books which this season covers are considered by the readers, to be the lowest points in the series. The book readers say that these two installments are poorly paced, I felt that way with this season. It was like a snail crawling, then the bug fucking exploded at the end of the 8th episode, and for the last two as well. There was too much crammed into the finale, WAY TOO MUCH. I enjoyed it but damn I couldn't get a feel for anything. Stannis's death, Jon Snow's death, Myrcella's death, it was all too much.

These deaths needed to be more spread out to have impact. The finale covered bare minimum, what should have taken place over 2 episodes, perhaps even 3. Stannis's plot line was really hurried. Military desertion, wife hung, and defeat all in one? After drodging around in the snow and tents all these episodes? Some of the blame is on Martin, he wrote the backing material afterall. But I think the show runners also get some blame, this was the perfect oppurtunity to remedy the situation and spread out the events that were crammed into the end over the whole season. The season as a whole doesn't progress the story enough. The character's end in climatic positions that could have been reached in only 5 - 6 episodes tops. Overall it felt like season 6 set up.

The last thing I want to say, after finding out how some things play out in the books, is how many characters are ruined on the show. Cersei on the show, is the stupidest person in all of Westeros, Essos, and the world as a whole. Not even her late son would be dumb enough to arm a fanatical militia in the capital, especially since the gaurds are few. In the books she is forced into this, which is far more sensical. Stannis doesn't burn his daughter in the books, which is more along with his personality, the show totally trashed him. Ellaria and the sand snakes are also ruined as characters. Ellaria doesn't plan anything against Myrcella in the books, only her daughters do. This makes more sense than the show, because they are young, naive and stupid but she should know better. They also don't plan to harm her, just kidnap her. The have no personal grudge against her and aren't vindicate, vicious bitches. The show up plays and exaggerates shit for sensation and sacrifices the back story in the process, the first 4 seasons were truer to the books from what I've read.



Well that's the end of my rant, what do you guys think? Agree, disagree? Surely this season wasn't as good as the first 4 right? And who is more at fault the show runners or Martin?

Thank you if you read all that! [:)]

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Dunno.. maybe you should actually read the books. I don't think that you can make a critique of the season/book as if it were one and the same.



Mostly this is because this televisison season is the one that is most unlike the book. Try and pin down the story to a particular book....you can't really.



The main critique all over these threads is due to producers need to race to the end of the last written book having fallen two books behind.



Your critiques cross over back and forth to content that does come from the book and contrived solely for the HBO series so you could only blame both producer and GRRM.



Like for Cersei, e.g. it is a Machiavellian theme. She is becoming mad obsessed over the prophecy and acting in an irrational manner in order to try and prevent it from unfolding.... but ultimately her decisions make it worse for herself. She merely replaces the old High Septon because he was appointed by Tyrion. This ends up being a bad idea as well. It would be harder to follow this only on the show since the maggy scence was somewhat truncated and occurs way before Cersei starts making bad decisions




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Overall I like the season, but I rank it my least favorite of the series so far, mainly because:



1) The Battle for Winterfell was being built up all season, then happened off-screen.


2) Meryn Trant's pedophila. Either it was done for shock value or to give Arya another motivation to kill him, either way was unecessary.


3) Most of all, the season felt... rushed. I know this was likely due to contract negotiations and D&D not knowing if they'd be able to make more than 7 seasons, but it still felt awkward condensing 2 books into 1 season.



Though I feel like counterbalancing this with what I liked most about the season:


1) The massacre at Hardhome. Hot damn, that was awesome.


2) Stannis' death scene. Yeah, I'm sad he's gone, but the scene was so... well, it was so Stannis, especially his last words.


3) Cersei's fall from power. Very satisfying to see, especially her Walk of Shame.


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SPOILERS FOR SEASON 5 CONTAINED


Good Things :

1) Arya becomes a real badass above even the hound.

2) The whole Tyrion / Jorah duo thing was neat and interesting.

3) Drogo finally gets some action.

4) Cersei gets some well deserved punishment for her atrocious crimes.

5) The assault by the dead / white walkers on hard home was awesome and forboding.

6) The treaty between the wildings and the watch was cool.

7) Theon comes through in the knick of time, reek no more!

8) The wicked Stannis gets some Brienne treatment, who goes out like a boss.

9) Brienne's adventure with podrick is interesting and supplies some action where its lacking else where.

Thank you if you read all that! [ :)]

1) Yes...the Hound is sooooo badass. :rolleyes: ...He's not just a bag of hot air who frightens young girls(probably with his bad breath), bullies/preys on those weaker than himself and shits his unwashed pants when he sees an open flame. No, he's pure, undiluted badass. Arya has been more badass than Joffrey's Dog from day one.

For what it's worth my favourite Arya scene (the scene that made me finally warm up to that character) was her comforting that sick girl.I'd wish we'd see more of that side of Arya.

2)Meh, personally I don't find Jorah very interesting.

3) Drogon But yeah it's nice they are finally doing something with those Dragons. Felt about the same way in the books.

4) And she learns nothing from it. Look at her facial expressions, she came this close to finally swallow a bit of her pride. Que Robert Strong and she is instantly back to scheming how to take revenge on all her imagined enemies.

6) Wasn't much of a treaty in the end and led to that narmy "For our Cult...erm For the Watch" scene. Which had far less build up and justification in the show.

7) After selling Sansa out a few episodes earlier, that little maggot. Can eberybody now be redeemed by hitting the right character at the right moment?

8) Nothing about that scene was "like a boss" imho. To me it seemed like they just wanted to despose the character in a quick manner. I'd rather have seen him go down in his suicidal assault on Winterfell.

9) They spend most of the season off-screen looking out for Sansa's candle. And all their interaction was a rehash of their interaction form last season.

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It bears repeating that most of your issues are something the show created which either weren't in the books at all or at least made a lot more sense in them. It's mostly just Tyrion being rather plot-irrelevant and Arya's and Dany's storylines being slow which I think you could say about the books as well (although personally I wasn't bothered by it).



It's true that books 4 & 5 were different than the previous ones and they couldn't have just adapted them using the same formula as in previous seasons (some major plot twists, something huge in episode 9, lots of action scenes, a clear arc for most characters, etc). I just don't think that's a very good excuse for the shortcomings of season 5; they could have just done a slightly slower season with more character development and world-building instead and still end up with a perfectly good and interesting season. Or they could have simply implemented their changes much, much better.


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I've been what might be called a defender of this show for a while, but I found Season 5 to be extremely disappointing and not good at all really (outside of Hardhome imo)



Tough to defend Dorne, Winterfell, Stannis, and a lot of the changes. Dorne was an absolute mess and even worse, a complete waste of time on a show that claims it doesn't have enough of it. Winterfell was a disaster and doesn't hold up to any kind of rational scrutiny from a logical, storytelling perspective. Stannis I think could have been good, but it was extremely rushed and the show didn't do a good enough job of establishing his desperation in the key moment for him.



On the plus side, as mentioned above, Hardhome was brilliant, and I think a good editing/condensing job was done on Tyrion and Dany's arc in particular.



But yeah...all in all, when I look at what could have been, and what eventually was, I can't help but be extremely disappointed, mainly on the sheer stupidity and awfulness of Dorne and Winterfell. When I think of those 2 plots being adapted, I think of the knife's edge tension in Winterfell, Manderley and the North Remembers and Frey Pie, Dustin, the NORTH!!! and for Dorne, basically the Queenmaker plot and Fire and Blood. To cut those out for what we got...not to mention the UGH!!! involved in finding Jeyne Poole's storyline more important and engaging to tell than Sansa's...


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I've been what might be called a defender of this show for a while, but I found Season 5 to be extremely disappointing and not good at all really (outside of Hardhome imo)

Tough to defend Dorne, Winterfell, Stannis, and a lot of the changes. Dorne was an absolute mess and even worse, a complete waste of time on a show that claims it doesn't have enough of it. Winterfell was a disaster and doesn't hold up to any kind of rational scrutiny from a logical, storytelling perspective. Stannis I think could have been good, but it was extremely rushed and the show didn't do a good enough job of establishing his desperation in the key moment for him.

On the plus side, as mentioned above, Hardhome was brilliant, and I think a good editing/condensing job was done on Tyrion and Dany's arc in particular.

But yeah...all in all, when I look at what could have been, and what eventually was, I can't help but be extremely disappointed, mainly on the sheer stupidity and awfulness of Dorne and Winterfell. When I think of those 2 plots being adapted, I think of the knife's edge tension in Winterfell, Manderley and the North Remembers and Frey Pie, Dustin, the NORTH!!! and for Dorne, basically the Queenmaker plot and Fire and Blood. To cut those out for what we got...not to mention the UGH!!! involved in finding Jeyne Poole's storyline more important and engaging to tell than Sansa's...

Well said.

Also, it's absolutely astounding that Benioff and Weiss cut out Theon's heart-wrenching scene in the godswood, when he kneels and breaks down in front of the heart tree, especially when you consider that Theon is their favourite character. Alfie Allen in that scene would've been a grand slam out of the park, which would've been perfect with the Winterfell theme.

Benioff and Weiss have really fucked it up.

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Really the Stannis/North plotline just bugs me because it just did nothing for the plot say what you will about Dorne but at least from the beginning of the Dorne plot to the end something massively changed *Dorne is getting ready for war with the Lannisters*. But the North what changed other then Stannis is died? The Boltens are around, Sansa did nothing, no North remembers? It just felt this plotline failed because D&D wanted Stannis out of the way so time they could of been spent getting Sansa and Reek to run away earlier in episode like 8 or 9 they spent on the Shireen burning plotline. If say there is no Shireen plotline liek the book and Sansa and Reek escape in episode 8 while Ramsey and his "20 good men" do their thing, you could have them run into Stannis camp after the attack, Ramsey will write the PL, Sansa and Reek hint at them helping Stannis get inside WF, then Jon gets the PL after Hardhome setting up FTW. At that point even with changes you are really close to were the books left off


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To be honnest, this season was a nice surprise to me.

I had very low expectations, so I wasn't at all dissapointed. This is definitively the show's most uneaven season so far, but that doesn't make it a bad seasone. We had some great moments, such as Hardhome, IMO one of the best scenes in the show so far, if not the best, that gave us a good look at the White Walkers, something long overdue on both screen and page.

We also had some moments that were utterly dreadful. Namely, the sandsnakes and their pathetic storyline.

A lot of the season was mediocre, especially in the first half. Not bad, but not good either.

And while it's one of the storylines I enjoyed the most, I've got to say it's a shame they cut so much from the northen storyline. I can deal with Sansa coming North, but no Manderly? No Lady Dustin? Theon's botched redemtion ark? That's much harder to accept.

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The only thing I liked about this season was Hardhome. I just enjoyed it for what it is mind you, an action packed fan-fictionesque. That being said, I would have preferred it to be cut; especially in favor of a good battle of Ice (where Stannis is not an incompetent religious nutjob of course)



It also disturbed the plot. Now that you have seen Night's King, stabbing of Jon makes even less sense (and the fact that Jon didn't try to give a speech about the others). Not that the idea of Jon being stabbed just because of letting Wildlings through was not inferior to that of the books in the first place.



I'm sorry but, show as an adaptation should not really be seperated from the books. Name it "inspired by Asoiaf" and I'm fine with whatever you do in it. The moment you claim it is based on books, you have to be a translator not an author. Because, everyone will see it as an adaptation and will think "oh. So that is how the books are."


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About the worst storyline of the season (yes, I am talking about Dorne and the sandsnakes).


I think the main reason for placing it in this season, the way D&D did it, is to make clear to everybody that Cercei now only has Tommen left. her children are dying in the same order they were born. In season 4 Joffry died, 5 is Myrcella, 6 is Tommen, paving the way for Cersei to die (I think halfway) season 7.


Too much deaths in a single family in a single season is too much.


If this season was done similar to the books (the queenmaker plot), Myrcella would have been visible in maybe 1 or 2 episodes (no way you get connected to the character that way) and she would have to die early season 6. I do not want to know what kind of comments D&D would have gotten then.


Yes, the sandsnakes could've been better at fighting, but no way that they are in any way decent politicians (neither is Ellaria). The show has however dumbed them down a lot.


Sending another member of the kingsguard to Dorne, would not have worked either. We hardly see any other members of the kingsguard as it is. No connection to the characters whatsoever, so sending Jaimie was the proper choice.



The Stannis storyline can be summarized as: we al knew he was going to die, but none of us thought this would be the way. He is a zealot (both in the books and on the show), as is his wife (although I have the feeling she is more engaged with the LoL then Stannis is).


I have to agree that his storyline was rushed. To cram the burning, losing half of his army, his wife's suicide and the battle of Winterfell in 2 episodes is ridiculous.


It would've been better if the situation of his army was more clear (just once was it mentioned that some horses and men died, and the conversation between Stannis and Davos was kind of supporting to it), so it could at least clarify the despair Stannis was in.


The attack on Winterfell was just ridiculous, a seasoned warrior like Stannis would have sent scouts to properly survey the area. He would have already know where his defensive positions would have been.


Where did the Boltons get so much cavalerie, and how were they able to hide them? Stannis' scouts should have warned him about that, so he could keep his army in the forest (weakening the cavalerie's advantage).



For the watch was clear and obvious. The "Traiter" sign made it very clear that this was about letting the Wildlings pass through the wall, not about a boy who lost his parents. What bugged me about the scene is that Alliser Thorne was the one who struck the first blow. In the past episodes, he made it clear that he didn't support Jon's opinion, but that he respected him as a Lord Commander. He gave his opinion about everything, but he never once showed disrespect or hate (in the last 2 seasons).



The Sansa storyline bugged me a bit, but I have to admit, placing her in Winterfell is better for the story then to have her do nothing in the Vale (because let's face it, that's what would've happened if she remained in the Vale). I was actually pretty bored with her story in the books after her escape from kingslanding.



To me, as a book fan (I just started reading the books for the 4th time), I did understand some of the changes that have been made for tv purposes, but do think some of the changes could have been done better.



I am looking forward to season 6 because I think this is what will happen:


  • Jaimie will go to the riverlands, to end the last pockets of resistance;
  • Cersei's trial (yes, she will be trialed, and Robert Strong will defend her);
  • Euron will enter the show with a bang;
  • Tyrion and Varys in Mereen (I like the 2 characters, both are evil, but together they can do so many good things);
  • Sansa and Brienne will meet up, and just maybe Sansa will become a non-revived Lady Stoneheart;
  • War between Lannisters and Martells;
  • Sam will end up in oldtown t start his Maesters education, and he will meet his father again.

Things I am looking forward to are:


  • What will happen at the wall (including Jon Snow);
  • What will happen with Daenerys, now that she's surrounded by Dothraki;
  • What will happen to Arya (yes, she is blind now, she will regain her sight, and then what?);
  • Is the Stannis inquisition really at its end?;
  • What will happen with Mellisandre (she surely has no fans at the wall);
  • Will Theon/Reek complete his redemption arc? What will he do to redeem himself? Will he live or die after his redemption?

So many things to look forward to, both on screen and in the books. Let's get it on!!


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