Heresy 171

[TheSmallOther]

Velaryons made a pact with the Merling King. Ironborn probably made a pact with the Deep Ones. Craster apparently made a pact with the Others. Early Valyrians must have made a pact with the evil survivors of Asshai’i dragonlords. Crannogmen made a pact with the CotF and possibly squishers too. The Sistermen must have made a pact with the merlings as well. Lengi'i made a pact with the Old Ones. Making pacts with higher races of dubious motives seems like a real thing.

I have been suspecting for a while that the glass candles contain the consciousness of the Asshai’i dragonlord sorcerers who foresaw their own demise and imbued the glass candles with their consciousness and will. Valyrians must have found these stones and fell under the evil influence, similar to the Palantirs of Middle Earth. Weirwood trees are functionally equivalent to glass candles. So, it can be similarly argued that weirwood trees might be keeping the consciousness and will of a race long gone physically. That explains why Leaf told Bran that the trees would teach him or why Bloodraven feels submissive to the call of the trees. Weirwood trees look quite unnatural. They live indefinitely and do not ever rot. This is not how nature is supposed to work.

There is yet another Lovecraft reference for this. Check out the Great Race of Yith. Horcruxes in HP and the Frostmourne of Arthas which transformed him into the new Lich King are other examples of cursed objects designed to escape demise/death and to influence and corrupt their wielders.

Do you think there is someone still behind glass candles? Like in LOTR, palantir is a useful tool, but you don't know who else may be watching.

[Mithras]

Do you think there is someone still behind glass candles? Like in LOTR, palantir is a useful tool, but you don't know who else may be watching.

I think the Church of Starry Wisdom dominates the glass candles. Quaithe is either a servant to them or a misguided fool dominated unknowingly. It was the dreams that forced Dany to hatch the dragons in a pyre and there are clear signs that all of those dreams were implanted by a glass candle used by Quaithe.

[Voice]

Hey BC, my wife is Scottish and was wondering what clan you're from. She's Graham of Montrose.

[Voice]

She says if you're a Campbell it might explain why you're always wrong. LOL

[Black Crow]

Which is what I say when I usually bring up this trope library. It's Melisandre's world view (well-defined good and evil that is), and I think Melisandre's view is the wrong way to view the conflict (and yet how a good number of readers do view the conflict through her), and I think the title of the series being something that's originating from "within the world" (I recall that being an SSM somewhere--that the title derives from what the people inside the story will call it when it's all said and done) it's conceivable that the majority of people aren't aware of the third faction pulling the strings behind the scenes, but instead are so focused on the Ice and Fire that they get the title of the song "in world", because they're the flashy extremes that are gaudy and attention grabbing.

Presenting us with a false dichotomy, while having a third faction vying for its own interests all the while that everyone "in world" overlooks or isn't aware of, and yet is influenced by.

Again, what I like is that Martin has potentially given the Earth faction motives and means and concerns of their own--traditionally the Earth faction become plot devices. That they're actually players with their own goals (theoretically) would be a departure.

I don't have a link for this SSM but I did pick it on the site archive:

I am reminded that at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

And so someone [at the LA Worldcon in 2006] followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil. He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes. It implied to me that, yes, there's more to the Others than what we've seen so far.

[Black Crow]

Hey BC, my wife is Scottish and was wondering what clan you're from. She's Graham of Montrose.

None,

I'm mostly of good Lowland stock from Aberdeenshire, although my maternal 3 x great grandfather was a Glenurquhart Grant killed during the Texas Revolution.

[Voice]

None,

I'm mostly of good Lowland stock from Aberdeenshire, although my maternal 3 x great grandfather was a Glenurquhart Grant killed during the Texas Revolution.

Very cool. And that's an awesome name, Glenurquhart. Certainly not one I hear everyday. Do you speak Scots-Gael?

[Yield.]

Hey BC, my wife is Scottish and was wondering what clan you're from. She's Graham of Montrose.

Well now. There's a coincidence I never thought would happen. I'm Graham of Montrose :cheers:

She says if you're a Campbell it might explain why you're always wrong. LOL

And this explains a lot but also is kind of scary because my sister in law is a Campbell. :eek:

[Black Crow]

Very cool. And that's an awesome name, Glenurquhart. Certainly not one I hear everyday. Do you speak Scots-Gael?

I can swear in it, but mostly prefer to stick with Lallans.

[wolfmaid7]

Hehe. Bran saw the Heart of Winter and himself, sitting on the new polished tree with thousand roots. Commanding armies of wights, white walkers, and not to forget, children of the forest. :devil:

My guess, what could be more terrible than something close to the heart and home. Bran killing a particular sibling perhaps or his death at the hands of a loved one :devil:

Velaryons made a pact with the Merling King. Ironborn probably made a pact with the Deep Ones. Craster apparently made a pact with the Others. Early Valyrians must have made a pact with the evil survivors of Asshai’i dragonlords. Crannogmen made a pact with the CotF and possibly squishers too. The Sistermen must have made a pact with the merlings as well. Lengi'i made a pact with the Old Ones. Making pacts with higher races of dubious motives seems like a real thing.

I have been suspecting for a while that the glass candles contain the consciousness of the Asshai’i dragonlord sorcerers who foresaw their own demise and imbued the glass candles with their consciousness and will. Valyrians must have found these stones and fell under the evil influence, similar to the Palantirs of Middle Earth. Weirwood trees are functionally equivalent to glass candles. So, it can be similarly argued that weirwood trees might be keeping the consciousness and will of a race long gone physically. That explains why Leaf told Bran that the trees would teach him or why Bloodraven feels submissive to the call of the trees. Weirwood trees look quite unnatural. They live indefinitely and do not ever rot. This is not how nature is supposed to work.

There is yet another Lovecraft reference for this. Check out the Great Race of Yith. Horcruxes in HP and the Frostmourne of Arthas which transformed him into the new Lich King are other examples of cursed objects designed to escape demise/death and to influence and corrupt their wielders.

I'm not sure about the bolded but i'm intrigued by it,i may be misremembering but isn't the glass candles Obsidian?

[Matthew.]

Velaryons made a pact with the Merling King. Ironborn probably made a pact with the Deep Ones. Craster apparently made a pact with the Others. Early Valyrians must have made a pact with the evil survivors of Asshai’i dragonlords. Crannogmen made a pact with the CotF and possibly squishers too. The Sistermen must have made a pact with the merlings as well. Lengi'i made a pact with the Old Ones. Making pacts with higher races of dubious motives seems like a real thing.

I have been suspecting for a while that the glass candles contain the consciousness of the Asshai’i dragonlord sorcerers who foresaw their own demise and imbued the glass candles with their consciousness and will. Valyrians must have found these stones and fell under the evil influence, similar to the Palantirs of Middle Earth. Weirwood trees are functionally equivalent to glass candles. So, it can be similarly argued that weirwood trees might be keeping the consciousness and will of a race long gone physically. That explains why Leaf told Bran that the trees would teach him or why Bloodraven feels submissive to the call of the trees. Weirwood trees look quite unnatural. They live indefinitely and do not ever rot. This is not how nature is supposed to work.

This is fairly close to the way I perceive Planetos as well--a "haunted" place, where (mostly vanished) elder races and civilizations are still influencing events in subtle ways, as humanity bumbles through the things that they've left behind. However, it's difficult to tell how much plot relevance we should grant to all of this, since it's a perception that is rooted heavily in new information from the WB.

I mentioned this in the previous thread, but I think we have a couple instances of humanity communing with things long dead or vanished; weirnet is the most blatant example, but there's also the shadows in MMD's tent during her ritual, the strange laughter from Victarion's cabin when he was "saved" by Moqorro, the voice Varys heard speaking from the flames when he was castrated, and perhaps even the things Patchface sees since he's had his near death experience.

I think this is the sort of thing that could be particularly important when it comes to prophecy. For example, is the Azor Ahai "prophecy" something that's truly destined to happen, or is it really a set of instructions for reawakening dragons and fire magic, being delivered in the guise of a savior prophecy?

[Voice]

I can swear in it, but mostly prefer to stick with Lallans.

I can speak a little. Learned it from her, but I'm not real familiar with the standard orthography. Fun language though. I'm not acquainted with Lallans.

[Urrax2]

...I'm not acquainted with Lallans.

http://www.lallans.co.uk

[Urrax2]

None,

...my maternal 3 x great grandfather was a Glenurquhart Grant killed during the Texas Revolution.

At the Alamo itself?

[Black Crow]

Yes and no, he helped take Bexar from the Mexicans in the first place but was later killed down on the border

[Black Crow]

I think the Church of Starry Wisdom dominates the glass candles. Quaithe is either a servant to them or a misguided fool dominated unknowingly. It was the dreams that forced Dany to hatch the dragons in a pyre and there are clear signs that all of those dreams were implanted by a glass candle used by Quaithe.

Its interesting, but I really can't get behind this one. It may be a bit of world building on GRRM's part and we've discussed the notion his world being a species of post-apocalyptic one, but its just the background. The present story centres on Westeros so I'd say the Church of Starry Wisdom is well out of field as active players.

[WhitewolfStark]

A slightly off-topic question & tangent, but to the Grahams (and those related by association) on this board, is there somewhere I can find a book on the history of the surname? I have in my family tree a Graham (by family traditon) who was my Mother's Mother's Mother's Mother, who died in childbirth (and between censuses, and I can't find her gravestone), and I've been interested in exploring the name history and seeing if I can find out more about her and the family name.

As for other Scots blood, I've got Quay.

[Black Crow]

Well off topic, though I would mention that the Montrose Grahams were a bit of an isolated branch. Most of the Grahams came from the Borders.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

http://www.lallans.co.uk

Those wacky Scots. Taking "heavily accented English" and calling it a language.

Crackpot: Dreamers impaled on spears are hooked up to the IceNet, and they can see through the cold mist like Bran sees through trees.

[wolfmaid7]

Those wacky Scots. Taking "heavily accented English" and calling it a language.

Crackpot: Dreamers impaled on spears are hooked up to the IceNet, and they can see through the cold mist like Bran sees through trees.

I had put forth this myself,so i don't think its crackpot at all.I totally endorse this .Those Dreamers on icespears are very similar to the ones in Bran's cave except one set is hooked up to ice and the other weirwoods.