Heresy 171

[Black Crow]

I had put forth this myself,so i don't think its crackpot at all.I totally endorse this .Those Dreamers on icespears are very similar to the ones in Bran's cave except one set is hooked up to ice and the other weirwoods.

Nah, I've always gone with the interpretation they were failed candidates who fell as Bran was then falling and were impaled on the ice because they could not fly - and that throws up an interesting interpretation, because they fell on the way to the Heart of Winter. It was their destination as it was Bran's and now Bran has arrived in the Heart of Darkness

[Mother of Dragons]

Hey BC, my wife is Scottish and was wondering what clan you're from. She's Graham of Montrose.

I talked about it w/Ser Duncan, already, but tell your wife I'm a Galloway :)

[Ser Kafka]

I'm not adding anything to the discussion really, but which connections are there between the Mabinogion and ASOIAF?

I have read Y Mabinogion a few times but not for a long time so I'm probably missing something...

[wolfmaid7]

Nah, I've always gone with the interpretation they were failed candidates who fell as Bran was then falling and were impaled on the ice because they could not fly - and that throws up an interesting interpretation, because they fell on the way to the Heart of Winter. It was their destination as it was Bran's and now Bran has arrived in the Heart of Darkness

I took it at face value to mean that yes but another thought hit me.If you fly you become what Bran is, but if you don't you die,but it may not mean dead dead but another choice and you become something else.

[Mother of Dragons]

Is the Heart of Winter a physical location far far north? Bran also saw dreamers impaled on ice spikes. Were these dreamers real? Were they actually impaled on spikes of ice in a physical location? I don't think so. Beyond the curtain of light sounds like somewhere over the rainbow. Only scarier.

Do you remember where I can find this? I wonder what the dreamers are, too.

[Sly Wren]

I'm not adding anything to the discussion really, but which connections are there between the Mabinogion and ASOIAF?

I have read Y Mabinogion a few times but not for a long time so I'm probably missing something...

Welcome!

My short list: In the story of Branwen and Bran the Blessed:

You've got Bran the Blessed possibly being tied to Bran himself. Branwen--the sister married off to an evil king and brothers come for her when she sends bird messengers--possible tie to Sansa. We've talked recently about Theon being a lot like Branwen and Bran's half brother Efnisien--betrays family, kills Branwen's child, feels enormous guilt after. In the same story, there's a magical cauldron: put in the dead and living warriors come out--wights.

That's just off the top of my head--those who have been here longer than I have might have more.

[Sly Wren]

Hehe. Bran saw the Heart of Winter and himself, sitting on the new polished tree with thousand roots. Commanding armies of wights, white walkers, and not to forget, children of the forest. :devil:

Now that's a horror.

[Mother of Dragons]

It is intriguing. Bran is not the one who cries whenever he can. He managed not to turn his eyes during beheading scene at the beginning. There was something either very terrible, or very unexpected in the heart.

That's a good point. He doesn't flinch at a beheading, but this did affect him. I don't think he cried when Ned died, either. It must have been some kind of doomsday scenario! :-o

[Sly Wren]

I do think that the Children of the Forest are a separate faction, but I think GRRM has given them more motives and a stake in the game than traditional fantasy or romance would give them. Dwelling more on the weirnet--I do think the Children are working towards preserving the weirnet, which is why they're okay with dying out as a race. What conflict will come from the weirnet and Bran will be with how Bran accesses the weirnet and just how much he can try and preserve his individuality without succumbing to the weirnet himself--teaching himself how to use the weirnet as a tool while remaining loosely associated. Which goes back to the warnings Bran's heard about warging--not to do it for too long, or else he'll loose himself inside whoever he's warging--same concept, IMO.

The Children will try and use Bran to help them preserve the weirnet, and Bran will likely do so, but won't do so blindly in the end.

The biggest factor I think will come down to how the weirnet responds to blood sacrifice, IMO. That's going to be important lure for Bran (if the sacrifice occurs while he's hooked up--I'm going to guess it'll feel like the best drug rush anyone's ever felt) but also a turn off as well, which will make the chapters much more interesting moving forward.

Agreed that the dichotomy doesn't work, that the Children want the weirnet (seems to be their eternal life), and that they need Bran--blood sacrifice as a danger and a lure, Bran pushing back at them--agreed.

But not yet sold on the Children being okay with "dwindling." Granted, Leaf doesn't flat out say, "save us, Obi Wan Kenobi. You're our only hope"--because of course it wouldn't make sense. But it also potentially sets up easing Bran into saving them after they explain themselves, after he cares, etc. She says it's a long dwindling. At least potential for more time.

Just not sold on the "sacrifice selves" idea--after all, if no more Children, who keeps the memory of the weirnet alive to protect it from future home decorating trends of weirwood furniture? Just seems they can't all die and maintain the net.

[Sly Wren]

My guess, what could be more terrible than something close to the heart and home. Bran killing a particular sibling perhaps or his death at the hands of a loved one :devil:

And that would definitely be "the horror!"

[Sly Wren]

I had put forth this myself,so i don't think its crackpot at all.I totally endorse this .Those Dreamers on icespears are very similar to the ones in Bran's cave except one set is hooked up to ice and the other weirwoods.

Have wondered about this, too--are they hooked up to ice because they failed and have been sacrificed? Used to feed the ice factory (for lack of a better phrase)?

Have also wondered if Coldhands is a failed one as well--enough talent to bring back, enough talent to admire BR, but not enough to ever have done what BR did . . .

[Mother of Dragons]

My guess, what could be more terrible than something close to the heart and home. Bran killing a particular sibling perhaps or his death at the hands of a loved one :devil:

I'm not sure about the bolded but i'm intrigued by it,i may be misremembering but isn't the glass candles Obsidian?

Yes, the candle is obsidian- a rare instance where I remembered a factoid!

Where have I heard a theory before about Bran killing a sibling? Was that the letter from 1993 that pitted Jon vs. Bran?

[Voice]

Well now. There's a coincidence I never thought would happen. I'm Graham of Montrose :cheers:

And this explains a lot but also is kind of scary because my sister in law is a Campbell. :eek:

LOL small world! Her grandpa would talk about a Clan feud with the Campbells that was hundreds of years old.

[Sly Wren]

Off topic quick question--am I correct in assuming you all have slogged through the possibilities that Rhaegar was gay, Arthur may have been his significant other, and possibly the tower of joy might have a romantic meaning for a different couple?

Would have asked over on RLJ, but I only want info and saw no reason to raise a ruckus unnecessarily.

[Mother of Dragons]

Off topic quick question--am I correct in assuming you all have slogged through the possibilities that Rhaegar was gay, Arthur may have been his significant other, and possibly the tower of joy might have a romantic meaning for a different couple?

Would have asked over on RLJ, but I only want info and saw no reason to raise a ruckus unnecessarily.

LOL! I think so, yes :)

[Reposado]

Off topic quick question--am I correct in assuming you all have slogged through the possibilities that Rhaegar was gay, Arthur may have been his significant other, and possibly the tower of joy might have a romantic meaning for a different couple?

Would have asked over on RLJ, but I only want info and saw no reason to raise a ruckus unnecessarily.

i think that is unlikely because the picture seems to be that rhaegar was blind to connington's unrequited love. i don't that that story is as good if rhaegar is also gay. and if those two were together, than who could have impregnated lyanna

[Dire Dawg]

Off topic quick question--am I correct in assuming you all have slogged through the possibilities that Rhaegar was gay, Arthur may have been his significant other, and possibly the tower of joy might have a romantic meaning for a different couple?

Would have asked over on RLJ, but I only want info and saw no reason to raise a ruckus unnecessarily.

Oh man if that was true then JonCon must have been really torn up. I don't recall any bad thoughts about Arthur from JonCon though, and one would expect it because I imagine he would have been jealous as shit. The only thought he seems to have is making a Camp that TSoTM would have been proud of.

It was a camp that even Arthur Dayne might have approved of—compact, orderly, defensible. ADWD The Lost Lord

[Voice]

Off topic quick question--am I correct in assuming you all have slogged through the possibilities that Rhaegar was gay, Arthur may have been his significant other, and possibly the tower of joy might have a romantic meaning for a different couple?

Would have asked over on RLJ, but I only want info and saw no reason to raise a ruckus unnecessarily.

I've had many such conversations, but I can't remember if they were in Heresy. Jon Con is a better candidate for Rhaegar's lover though, imo.

[Voice]

i think that is unlikely because the picture seems to be that rhaegar was blind to connington's unrequited love. i don't that that story is as good if rhaegar is also gay. and if those two were together, than who could have impregnated lyanna

Arthur Dayne. Or Benjen, lol

[Voice]

Well off topic, though I would mention that the Montrose Grahams were a bit of an isolated branch. Most of the Grahams came from the Borders.

Don't know much about such things myself. Her grandparents came over after WWII. Cool folks. Very proud. Tartans and bagpipes. Lousy food though. LOL