The Reach is unrealistically powerful

[Stannis in the middle]

If the Reach could really raise twice as many soldiers as any other single kingdom in Westeros is would completely destabilise the balance of the 7 kingdoms, especially when they are immediately adjacent to the Stormlands, Riverlands and Crownlands - 3 regions without natural geographical defenses.

For example, the Lannisters would have been crushed in the WOTFK if the Reach hadnt allied with them - even if Robb hadnt been so spectacularly successful early in the war. The Lannisters were being attacked from North and South and the Riverlands split their communications between the KL and Casterly Rock. The Reach were the natural powerbrokers, whoever they backed would win the war.

In real life, i think if the Reach was really that powerful (and rich) it would have exerted its influence over the most of Westeros. It just kinda annoys me for some reason...

Thoughts?

MDog out.

[A Hapless Newbie]

My impression was that the insanely large army Renly was able to throw together was a combination of both the Stormlands and the Reach, which makes it slightly more explicable.

[Winterfell is Burning]

If the Reach could really raise twice as many soldiers as any other single kingdom in Westeros is would completely destabilise the balance of the 7 kingdoms, especially when they are immediately adjacent to the Stormlands, Riverlands and Crownlands - 3 regions without natural geographical defenses.

The Stormlands have mountains and thick forests. You know who doesn't have natural defenses? The Reach.

Plus, it's pretty clear they have been very divided since Aegon's arrival, if not earlier.

[Septon Oberyn]

If by massive army you are referring to the army that Renly had, that was a combination of the Stormlands and the Reach, and it wasn't a very good army. They lacked discipline, and were probably would not have been very loyal if they fell on hard times. However, they made a good show, which is what Renly was interested in. Also, why do you say that the other areas were less geographically defended than the Reach? The Riverlands had...well rivers. All over the place. The Westerlands had some mountain features going on, and the Stormlands had forests and some mountains. As Winterfell is Burning said, the Reach is actually the one without natural geographical defenses. It is basically a region made up of great plains, with one river. It is wide open, and easily assaulted. The only thing that makes it difficult to invade is the size of it and the men that the Tyrells have at their disposal. They can field a decently large army. But I wouldn't say they are overpowered.

[Trigger Warning]

Renly was charismatic, the overlord of the Stormlands and the brother of the king. A claimant that's easy to support.

The Reach is split between several powerful houses that will have influence over the lesser houses. Internal politics, ambitions, rivalries and feuds would likely prevent the Reach gathering such a force under different circumstances.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

The Reach is divided because Highgarden has never been able to maintain hegemonic control over its territories, not least due to the fact that Oldtown and its lords have traditionally had a high level of autonomy due to the city's independent political power as the centre of the Faith and of the Citadel. The Tyrells, moreever, for a long time were unable to establish themselves as the premiere Reach family, despite their stewardship, due to the Hightowers' influence over the Targaryen kings.

[Nights Kings Queen]

The reach sucks. And the Tyrell's. Both of them suck...

Adding in my pointless opinion

[Valyrian Blade]

Idk but at first i had the feeling that the north was the strongest region military speaking, but that was when i first started reading, after awhile the reach just seemed to be as you say, unrealistically powerful with the size of their armies.

It is also the most fertile region, has a fleet and the most powerful city in the kingdom.

In the WIKI it says that the force that broke Stannis' attack on the red keep was 65,000 men, 50,000 of those being Tyrell men. the other 10,000-15,000 Lannister, And this is considering that some of the houses in the Reach had flocked to Stannis' banners.

[Grizzly Mormont]

it's where all the food is, so it makes sense that it is populous.

[A Man Has Said]

Westeros is portrayed as being an agrarian economy.

Since The Reach has the most food, they have the most economic power. Simple.

On top of that, they have the ONLY product that we ever hear about being sold to all the other 8 regions (wine) and exported to Essos as well.

Ka-ching! (that's the sound of cash pouring into the region.)

Planetos is portrayed as having bizarre seasonal variations, with winters sometimes lasting years.

ASSUMING that the Reach was well managed, they would stockpile all their surplus agricultural output for those times,

and sell them at inflated prices.

Ka-ching! again.

Unlike the Lannisters' armies, which are composed of mostly mercenaries,

The Reach's are the same as other regions of Westeros.

They are composed of troops raised, trained and equipped by the Tyrells' loyal bannermen.

(My guess is that the lesser houses in the Westlands are reluctant to do that after the Rains of Castermere.

Who would be foolish enough to provide a potential enemy with the means to destroy them?)

So the Tyrells' wealth is not a stretch of the imagination by any means.

Nor is the large size of their armies.

The Stormlands have mountains and thick forests. You know who doesn't have natural defenses? The Reach.

Plus, it's pretty clear they have been very divided since Aegon's arrival, if not earlier.

Bingo! Strategically, The Reach's wealth is land, and they have to protect it.

This is also the reason for the loyalty of the lesser houses.

Each of them would see the value in the mutual security provided by a large domestic army.

This comes into play in AFfC when that army leaves the region, leaving it vulnerable to attacks from the Iron Islands.

It's also implied by the havoc created by relatively small raiding parties in The Riverlands.

Faced with a similar threat, The Reach would have even more to lose, and fare worse.

So it's quite reasonable to assume that they would be reluctant to use those armies to attack adjacent regions, for both strategic military and political reasons.

If the Reach could really raise twice as many soldiers as any other single kingdom in Westeros is would completely destabilise the balance of the 7 kingdoms, especially when they are immediately adjacent to the Stormlands, Riverlands and Crownlands - 3 regions without natural geographical defenses.

For example, the Lannisters would have been crushed in the WOTFK if the Reach hadnt allied with them - even if Robb hadnt been so spectacularly successful early in the war. The Lannisters were being attacked from North and South and the Riverlands split their communications between the KL and Casterly Rock. The Reach were the natural powerbrokers, whoever they backed would win the war.

In real life, i think if the Reach was really that powerful (and rich) it would have exerted its influence over the most of Westeros. It just kinda annoys me for some reason...

Thoughts?

MDog out.

I agree, The Reach were the natural power brokers, and if Stannis hadn't so cravenly murdered his brother they'd have won the war, and the series would have been over in 3 books as originally intended. Done and dusted, everyone home by tea time.

GRRM must be SO pissed off at whoever slipped that Shadow Baby ass pull into his books. (/snark)

Since their armies would have been designed specifically for regional defence, there were strategic reasons (besides the glaring fact that it would have been an act of treason against the crown, after Aegon's Conquest at least) to keep them at home.

Besides THAT, they were already in a position of exerting economic influence through the region through their export of wines and agricultural products. AND they did go further, to extending political, cultural and religious influence as well, through the institutions of The Maesters and The Faith of the Seven, both based in OldTown. Why would they want more?

[Slowpoke Martin]

Has anyone put together a list of the Reach houses and their strength?

[EastTymor]

Well said, A Man Has Said

[Victor227]

My impression was that the insanely large army Renly was able to throw together was a combination of both the Stormlands and the Reach, which makes it slightly more explicable.

Not only that, but Renly established himself as the guy to go to for second sons with no prospects and such, like Robar Royce. He became 'the winning team' very early on in the war, and turned his march into a combination tournament, party, and siege of King's Landing. He was incredibly masterful in putting together, keeping together, and preparing his army, keeping astride the main supply artery to King's Landing while letting his opponents and prospective opponents wear themselves out.

[falcotron]

The reach sucks. And the Tyrell's. Both of them suck...

Cersei told me that Margaery Tyrell sucks, and quite well. But when I tried to confirm that in person, Margaery just laughed at me.

[GallowsKnight]

He was incredibly masterful in putting together, keeping together, and preparing his army, keeping astride the main supply artery to King's Landing while letting his opponents and prospective opponents wear themselves out.

I disagree he squandered all of his advantages he had with a mighty army. He could have split his army into 3 group of 20 thousand, sent one into the riverlands, another up the ocean road to harass the Westerlands and another to besiege Kingslanding, while keeping reserves in the South to protect the two Kingdoms he already had.

Instead he wastes times and lets himself be assassinated.

I mean what does he expect to happen in the Riverlands? Either Robb wins and says "screw you Renly, you never helped me" or Tywin Lannister wins and perhaps manages to force the North and Riverlands into a coalition with the Lannisters.

[EastTymor]

Cersei told me that Margaery Tyrell sucks, and quite well. But when I tried to confirm that in person, Margaery just laughed at me.

Talk to Pycelle- he can confirm.

[Hos the Hostage]

I assumed that the Reach has too many well-to-do noble families, all with their own troops.

Mainly the Tyrells, the Hightowers, the Florents and the Redwynes. Then there are Randyll Tarly's men.

Compared to other kingdoms, the Reach seems the most populated.

The wealth of highgarden is only second to that of Casterly Rock, which means they can afford to have a large army.

The reach being the center of chivalry in Westeros, there may be more number of competitive knights and fighters in the Reach.

The North is the largest region, but not very populated.

The Westerlands are richest, but Lord Tywin made sure none of the other houses can even dream of rivaling Casterly Rock in wealth and power.

Dorne is also sparsely populated, it seem. Their current army strength is due to not taking part in WoT5K.

The Vale has the weakest army in normal conditions, I'd guess. But the geographical conditions make for that. They did not fight the WoT5K, either.

Riverlands might be more fertile than the Reach, but too many wars (throughout the history of Westeros) has made the houses poorer than in other kingdoms, I guess.

We don't know much about the Stormlands, but the region is hilly and not as populated or fertile as the Reach, I'd guess. Even if the strength of Stormlands equalled the strength of Reach before the war started, more than half of the Stormlords joined Renly, the rest joined Stannis, and I think both suffered heavy losses in the battle of Blackwater.

Now that you asked this, I think the Winds of Winter will be the first time the oft-mentioned 'strength of Highgarden' will be put to test. They did not have a lot to do in Blackwater, and what happened in Dragonstone is still a bit of a mystery. With Margaery's trial, Aegon taking Storm's End, and Euron attacking Oldtown, their army is going to pieces, I'd guess. Waiting to see how Willas deals with it all.

[EastTymor]

I disagree he squandered all of his advantages he had with a mighty army. He could have split his army into 3 group of 20 thousand, sent one into the riverlands, another up the ocean road to harass the Westerlands and another to besiege Kingslanding, while keeping reserves in the South to protect the two Kingdoms he already had.

Instead he wastes times and lets himself be assassinated.

I mean what does he expect to happen in the Riverlands? Either Robb wins and says "screw you Renly, you never helped me" or Tywin Lannister wins and perhaps manages to force the North and Riverlands into a coalition with the Lannisters.

What would that accomplish, besides giving his opponents a chance to win a battle? Renly has the most soldiers, the most food, and the best position. Even better, his advantages only grow with time. Every day he delays is another day for King's Landing to starve, another day for the Lannisters and Starks to wear each other down, another day for Robb's inexperience and Stannis' personality to alienate their allies, and so on. Barring shadow babies, Renly's only challenge is crossing the Blackwater. If there are lots of armies (and navies) still in the field, that is hard. If only the starved and battered remnants of the Lannister and (Narrow Sea) Baratheon armies remain, that is easy.

[Leonardo]

Unlike the Lannisters' armies, which are composed of mostly mercenaries,

....

Umm, no lol?

The Westerlands are highly populated. The Riverlands are next on the list, but after them it's the West or the North based on what we know now about the latter's numbers.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

The Reach's historical analogy is medieval France, and I think that offers some good parallels, namely that despite being the most populous polity in western Europe since the fall of the Carolingian Empire, until the 15th century France's power was crippled by the weakness of French kings and the power of local lords and regions. This was exploited by the English during the Hundred Years' War, where they were able to ally with regional powers such as the Dukes of Burgundy to each take huge swathes of the country out of royal control. This was despite the fact that the English were always outnumbered in the field by the French, something which made the victories at Crécy and Agincourt all the more impressive. France only became a truly powerful and unified European state in the aftermath of the Hundred Years' War, and not without considerable modernisation of its governance and army.