The Reach is unrealistically powerful

[Ser Lepus]

If the Reach could really raise twice as many soldiers as any other single kingdom in Westeros is would completely destabilise the balance of the 7 kingdoms, especially when they are immediately adjacent to the Stormlands, Riverlands and Crownlands - 3 regions without natural geographical defenses.

For example, the Lannisters would have been crushed in the WOTFK if the Reach hadnt allied with them - even if Robb hadnt been so spectacularly successful early in the war. The Lannisters were being attacked from North and South and the Riverlands split their communications between the KL and Casterly Rock. The Reach were the natural powerbrokers, whoever they backed would win the war.

In real life, i think if the Reach was really that powerful (and rich) it would have exerted its influence over the most of Westeros. It just kinda annoys me for some reason...

Thoughts?

MDog out.

Reach is the Southernmost kingdom besides Dorne (which is mostly a desert). They probably can grow some kind of crops even during winters (apples, pears, turnips, carrots, onions, lentils, beans, chickpeas, peas, winter rye, winter wheat, winter barley, lettuce, asparagus, spinaches, cabbage, ...etc.), which allow them to feed a lot of people and avoid the horrible death toll other kingdoms suffer during winters.

In addition to that, their fields are probably more productive than others during summer, allowing them to employ less people as farmers and more people as warriors.

I think it's reasonable that they can field much more people than anybody else.

EDIT: Before the Conquest the Reach had enemies all around: Dorne, the Westerlands, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, so while they were more powerful, they had more fronts. And you have to take into account that Harren's kingdom (the Riverlands+the Iron Islands+a chunk of the Crownlands) and the Storm Kingdom (Stormlands+a huge chunk of the Crownlands) where powerful, expansive superpowers that were dangerous even for the Reach. And Dorne is incredibly hard to conquer.

After the Conquest the Reach wasn't allowed to expand, and it wasn't powerful to challenge the Targaryen.

[Humble Maester]

Yes, but it was indicated that being a knight makes a better soldier by default. But when thrown against a similar equipped opponent there's no difference in the end.

Most times yes, but there are examples like Bronn in the Vale. I'm not saying that knights are worse than other fighters, just that their title alone is no indication how good they actually are.

Well, duh, obviously two warriors with similar training and equipment will be as good. The point is that knights are the only group (besides northman equivalent) that actually train whole their life and have top-grade equipment. Knights aren't good because they are knights, they are good because knights generally train more and more affluent than all the other warriors.

[Stormland's Fury]

Well, duh, obviously two warriors with similar training and equipment will be as good. The point is that knights are the only group (besides northman equivalent) that actually train whole their life and have top-grade equipment. Knights aren't good because they are knights, they are good because knights generally train more and more affluent than all the other warriors.

Well yes that was my point. In a country where equivalents of knights exist anyway, saying that the Reach has better quality troops because they "have the best knights" it's pretty much redundant. It's still about their quantity not quality.

[Victor227]

In the Sworn Sword, we definitely see how the Reach's borders functioned pre-conquest. A Gardener king wars in the east with the Stormlands? The Lannisters get cocky and move in on the northern Reach.

They share a border with Dorne, the Stormlands, the Riverlands, part of the Crownlands (formerly Stormlands and Duskendale and such), and the Westerlands, and only their border with Dorne is particularly defensible.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

In the Sworn Sword, we definitely see how the Reach's borders functioned pre-conquest. A Gardener king wars in the east with the Stormlands? The Lannisters get cocky and move in on the northern Reach.

They share a border with Dorne, the Stormlands, the Riverlands, part of the Crownlands (formerly Stormlands and Duskendale and such), and the Westerlands, and only their border with Dorne is particularly defensible.

You've forgotten the wet border to the Iron Islands.

[naseridrl]

I always thought they were somewhat underpowered given what should be their big population advantage and the bounty their land offers. Their lack of canals and such has always intrigued me. Maybe the lack of defensive borders has stunted their growth somewhat and made them plateau.

I do think their current weakness comes from the lack of respect for the Tyrells. The Gardeners seemed to have the respect because all the houses branched out from there and they were the o The Tyrells are followed only because of royal appointment made them what they are

[Humble Maester]

Well yes that was my point. In a country where equivalents of knights exist anyway, saying that the Reach has better quality troops because they "have the best knights" it's pretty much redundant. It's still about their quantity not quality.

Well there are difference between knights (and equivalents) depending on region, and Reach has the best knights qualitatively. And largest numbers too.

I am not sure why we are going in circles honestly...

[Daendrew]

There is an important reason The Reach is so powerful. It controls one of the holiest sites in all Planetos. They hold the garden where Renly ate the peach from. I think it will be extremely important and it is why we haven't seen Highgarden until GRRM reveals it in the next book or two.

ASOIAF is a tale of two trees. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

I outlined why in The Garden of Edenos, you can read it in my signature. I have changed my views on The Children in The Garden and my latest post, Misreading The Tree-Leaves gives the big picture why.

The Others ate of the other forbidden tree of The Garden of Edenos, The Tree of Eternal Life. The "First" Men ate of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (I am less certain it is a Weirwood tree, unless a special Weirwood can grow peaches).

If you eat of both trees you are a god. The "gods" built the wall to banish us from the Garden of Edenos with the North Grove of Ironwood trees. God banished man from the Garden of Eden because if we ate of the second tree, we would become gods ourselves.

[Beard from Tad Cymru]

I'm sure we'll see which tactic is right with what happens in the North. Stannis could have stayed on Dragonstone waited for Tywin, Robb and later Renly to fight it out then hit out when 2/3 were defeated and the victor weakend. But he didn't and lost the blackwater.

Little finger on the other hand has kept his Vale knights nice and safe and lets Stannis and Roose fight it out.

As I said it will be interesting to see what the outcome is if he marches north after that war.

[John Suburbs]

Seems a bit of a leap. They can just marry Sansa off to another Lannister.

Not if Littlefinger smuggled her out of the capital. With the Willas plan in shambles, Lady O has two choices: leave her in King's Landing with the Lannisters, or let Littlefinger have her. Littlefinger controlling the Vale, the Riverlands and the North is less of a threat to Highgarden than Tywin controlling the Westerlands, the Riverlands and the North.

[GallowsKnight]

So how many men does Tywin have in a scenario where he wins the war and houses defect to him.

Tywin himself has around 30k while the defectors are maybe 15k at the most (assuming most houses will not want to join Tywin Lannister).

So he still does not have enough men to defeat Renly's united army, why should Renly give himself an oppurtunity to lose battles when his host is undeaftable when it is united.

Renly does have more men. But you cannot move 80,000 men through enemy territory. Historically ~20,000 is the largest host that can supply itself. Renly is able to supply his men because he is in friendly territory without a constant threatened supply chain.

That 45k (probably just the 20k he has from the start) number you give is more than enough to win battles once Renly has to divide his host due to logistics.

Furthermore Tywin Lannister will have increased his reuputation and Joffrey's Regime by beating the Northmen and Riverlords. Men might start to wonder if supporting Renly is truly worth it.

I am saying it's smarter for Renly to strike when he has known co-belligerents in the field. Who are men he wants to swear fealty to and his enemy only has 20,000 men.

1. You're really, really overestimating Robb's position. Even assuming the IB don't attack the North, Robb still has to defend the RL or risk losing them, but he's gotta go back North at some point too. Tywin was able to split his force and light up the RL. Renly can do that 3x over. Renly can send 20K through Tywin's path of destruction.

2. And Tywin? He'd probably get some of the Riverland houses to march, but he has to beat Robb substantially enough to do so that he can't win or retreat North. The northerners aren't fighting for Joffrey outside of men directly commanded by Roose maybe (assuming Rickard is still executed). Most of the reason they marched south was to free Ned. Many of the most powerful bannermen stayed loyal till the end and even then Daven thinks their loyalty is dubious. So let's toss in the Freys, Brackens, and "Darrys". That gets him maybe an additional 10K (likely could be more but gotta account for desertion/loyalty/casualties/harvest)? Tywin gets to march on Renly with an army thats still smaller than the one he has to fight. Even if he got *every* RL and northman who fought, here's what it would look like:

Renly - 80K marching up the Rose Road, 10K behind and prolly a good chunk left in the SL. Plenty of supplies, possibly a navy

Tywin - ~70K (might be a bit higher. hard to fully count the RL muster), half the army has been through a year of fighting, and the RL is pretty much barren because of the war

Northmen - 20K

RL - 20K

Stafford's host - 10K

Tywin's host - 20K

3. Tywin still has to feed all forces and a starving city of 500K while fending off Renly and a possible invasion/bloackade from Stannis. It'd be a feat to accomplish half of that.

1. I'm trying to look at this without the benefit of hindsight. The way Renly might see it. The Vale is run by Robb's aunt and his close friend is heir the Iron Islands. The possibility of some sort of alliance or power block forming against him should not be discounted even if it doesn't actually happen.

Renly thinks Robb has maybe 40,000 men when he meets Catelyn.

Is it really smart to have to send men through a countryside that has already been stripped bare by both sides to attack someone who you could have easily brought over peaceably by attacking a definite enemy with half as many men (Tywin 20,000)

2. I'm proposing Tywin manages to wrangle Edmure and Robb dead or in chains. But take your number of 70k. Why is it now smarter to fight a bigger Tywin Lannister whose got the reputation of beating the Northmen, when you could attack him when he had 20,000 and you had co-belligerents in the field to assist?

3. Yes Tywin is still in a crappy situation. But less crappy than the start as per his conversation with Tyrion.

"Jaime has left us in a bad way. Roose Bolton and the remnants of his host are north of us. Our enemies hold the Twins and Moat Cailin. Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. Jaime is taken, and his army for all purposes has ceased to exist. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties. To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm's End are calling their banners."

Tyrion smiled crookedly. "Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead."

Giving Tywin time is a bad idea. It lets him build forces, build reputation and propaganda, finally it allows him to make diplomatic allies (Dorne, Iron Islands, Vale etc)

Why is this smarter than attacking him when he only has 20,000 men?

[EastTymor]

At the start of the war, Tywin has (substantially) less than 46,000 soldiers (20,000 for Tywin, 15,000, for Jaime, 11,000 for Stafford, yes I know I am double counting and overestimating, just roll with it). Robb has 22,000. Its not clear what the total Riverlands strength is, but it is (substantially) more than 15,000 (4,000 Freys, 11,000 under Edmure at the Battle of the Fords, more before that). Stannis has 5,000.

So there are maybe 88,000 soldiers available for Renly's enemies, comparable to Renly's strength. If Renly rushes in and tries to fight all of them at once, it is an even battle.

But if he waits, it is overwhelmingly like that by the time he arrives in the theater his enemies will have ground each other down to easily manageable proportions. Conveniently, his enemies (except, fatefully, Stannis) are eager to do just that. Waiting will result in Renly facing smaller armies, not larger.

[Nihlus]

Medieval France is OP, nerf plz.

[Gibzit]

Medieval France is OP., nerf plz.

I think you are looking for the Paradox forums.

[Bobby b's bobby]

I think you are looking for the Paradox forums.

Pff you played a paradox game ck2 France is fodder for muslims then then thenjoy hre then itself then steve and his 12 men.

Though the reach is close to lateish middle age france chivalric traditions strong vassals trolling king/lord paramount and enemies on several fronts on paper they're a powerhouse but in reality (hmm bad word choice) they aren't for a few reasons.

[Beautiful Balon]

Also waiting was making his Army bigger. In Cat's chapter she mentions that knights from all over Westeros are congregating to join his army. Hell it was Cat's chapter because she was trying to set up an allaince between the North and the Reach and was offering terms of fealty before he was offed.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Also waiting was making his Army bigger. In Cat's chapter she mentions that knights from all over Westeros are congregating to join his army. Hell it was Cat's chapter because she was trying to set up an allaince between the North and the Reach and was offering terms of fealty before he was offed.

Medieval armies don't stay in the field forever or feed themselves with renly having 80-100k men with 20k at least knights thats at least 40k horses more likely 60k and that's just war horses not including all the pack animals hauling the baggage train his army is consuming stupid amounts of food.

Sure his enemies are going to bleed each other but if he had the numbers to beat tywin/kings landing and fight robb if necessary send garlan, tarly and some other lords into the riverlands with 30-40k March on kings landing with 20-30k yourself with loras and margery you take the capital with ease offer robb sansa(if she lives) and ice even let robb style himsrlf king in the north as long as he understands your king of all of Westeros in exchange for vassalage and helping finish tywin this is all hindsight with benefit of knowing about bs assassin magic but still use it or lose it renly.

[EastTymor]

Medieval armies don't stay in the field forever or feed themselves with renly having 80-100k men with 20k at least knights thats at least 40k horses more likely 60k and that's just war horses not including all the pack animals hauling the baggage train his army is consuming stupid amounts of food.

Sure his enemies are going to bleed each other but if he had the numbers to beat tywin/kings landing and fight robb if necessary send garlan, tarly and some other lords into the riverlands with 30-40k March on kings landing with 20-30k yourself with loras and margery you take the capital with ease offer robb sansa(if she lives) and ice even let robb style himsrlf king in the north as long as he understands your king of all of Westeros in exchange for vassalage and helping finish tywin this is all hindsight with benefit of knowing about bs assassin magic but still use it or lose it renly.

The Tyrells were diverting all the food that normally went to King's Landing to feed the army. Same direction, same logistics, easy peasy.

[Bobby b's bobby]

The Tyrells were diverting all the food that normally went to King's Landing to feed the army. Same direction, same logistics, easy peasy.

Still not necessary you outnumber all your enemies grab that initiative you can take kings landing joffrey possibly Tommen smash tywin and robb if he's hostile and get ready to break the ironborn I'm not saying what renly did was stupid or didn't make sense just not what i would have done.

[GallowsKnight]

At the start of the war, Tywin has (substantially) less than 46,000 soldiers (20,000 for Tywin, 15,000, for Jaime, 11,000 for Stafford, yes I know I am double counting and overestimating, just roll with it). Robb has 22,000. Its not clear what the total Riverlands strength is, but it is (substantially) more than 15,000 (4,000 Freys, 11,000 under Edmure at the Battle of the Fords, more before that). Stannis has 5,000.

So there are maybe 88,000 soldiers available for Renly's enemies, comparable to Renly's strength. If Renly rushes in and tries to fight all of them at once, it is an even battle.

But if he waits, it is overwhelmingly like that by the time he arrives in the theater his enemies will have ground each other down to easily manageable proportions. Conveniently, his enemies (except, fatefully, Stannis) are eager to do just that. Waiting will result in Renly facing smaller armies, not larger.

The problem with this logic is that 88 thousand you mention are not allied. Robb Stark is not an enemy immediately. He is a co-belligerent meaning he shares the same enemy as you without a formal alliance. He is a potential vassal of large strength. Technically Stannis is in a similar situation, though as we'd later see he's not going to bend the knee.

Once Robb wins the Whispering Woods and the Battle of Camps Renly should have moved, because Joffrey, Tywin and assorted Lannisters are his number one enemy. Between Robbs 20-40k and some similar amount of his they can pulverize Tywin and ally.

Furthermore waiting runs the risk of other factions joining his enemies or rivals. Or for his rivals to grow in power. Lets say Robb gets lucky and kill Tywin somewhere in the Riverlands, then the Vale joins him and the Iron Islands. Renly has lost half of his Kingdom. Renly might have some more troops even then, but he can't win without a bloody war where his enemy has the home ground advantage.

What I'm proposing isn't a huge risk scenario. Send 20,000 men up the Ocean Road. There will be literally no large scale resistance to them until they reach Stafford's smaller untrained host. Send 20,000 to besiege Kinslanding to cut off any Lannister legitimacy of having the throne. Then you still have 2x 20k armies you can use to pressure Tywin in the Riverlands and competent commanders like Randyl Tarly to lead them. Outnumbering Tywin 2:1, 3-4:1 if you count Robb and the Riverlords.

In every theatre you still outnumber your enemies. Each win gains more potential allies, weakens the enemy and legitimizes your reign.