Canon sources

[LmL]

By clearly saying "only the books are Cannon" GRRM has given himself permission to violate every fact established in TWOIAF, and retrofit a new history to match new characters and plot changes he might choose to make in the future.

He has given himself permission to kill off and leave out characters/ chapters he has confirmed in interviews will be in the next book

eg. Pyat Pree

He might even decide to cancel pre-released chapters, or rewrite them.

Even if he established beyond doubt in TWOIAF, that the Ibbinese are all squat and hairy, and came from an island smaller than Great Moraq, he can introduce a tall and pale race of men from an Ib, that exile any son too dark or hairy to the sea. He can located Ib in the Summer seas, or attached to the continent of Essos. He can make it the largest island in the world, dispensing with Greater Moraq, and Sothryous too, for all we know (ETA: Actually, if the maps that go with the books are included in the cannon, and he wanted to write Sothoryos out of the book, he might have to attribute its inclusion in the Valeria map to an unreliable cannon source, ). He can't get rid of or change the size or location of Qarth or Essos so easily, because they are in the books.

He probably won't make radical changes that fly in the face of everything TWOIAF has established (that would be mean, and too much work as well), but he can if he wants, therefore TWOIAF is semi-cannon, not cannon.

What are you talking about?

[LmL]

As GRRM says, the published books are canon. George directly wrote substantial parts, provided the material -- one way or another -- for almost everything else, and reviewed all of it. He wrote it with Linda and I. It isn't "fan fiction", as George succinctly notes.

That said, because of the approach we took -- a maester's work written "in-universe" -- there is an inherent fallibility that means that if something in ASoIaF comes to contradict a detail from TWoIaF (and I mean concretely contradict; if Tyrion thinks about how they say Asshai is said to be full of laughing children, that's as much hearsay as the maester writing of Asshai being completely without children) then one should assume ASoIaF is more correct because what's actually witnessed and shown in the books is obviously going to be more correct than a maester's third-hand account based on his learning, his apparent biases, and the accounts of others.

Pro tip: Yandel's fallibility increases greatly in regards to events from the reign of Aerys II forward.

/that discussion

TWOAIF = canon.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I agree, Preston Jacobs video's are part of my ASOIAF universe, therefore everything said there is considered canon.

.....and there goes the thread...

[Criston of House Shapper]

By clearly saying "only the books are Cannon" GRRM has given himself permission to violate every fact established in TWOIAF, and retrofit a new history to match new characters and plot changes he might choose to make in the future.

He has given himself permission to kill off and leave out characters/ chapters he has confirmed in interviews will be in the next book

eg. Pyat Pree

He might even decide to cancel pre-released chapters, or rewrite them.

Even if he established beyond doubt in TWOIAF, that the Ibbinese are all squat and hairy, and came from an island smaller than Great Moraq, he can introduce a tall and pale race of men from an Ib, that exile any son too dark or hairy to the sea. He can located Ib in the Summer seas, or attached to the continent of Essos. He can make it the largest island in the world, dispensing with Greater Moraq, and Sothryous too, for all we know (ETA: Actually, if the maps that go with the books are included in the cannon, and he wanted to write Sothoryos out of the book, he might have to attribute its inclusion in the Valeria map to an unreliable cannon source, ). He can't get rid of or change the size or location of Qarth or Essos so easily, because they are in the books.

He probably won't make radical changes that fly in the face of everything TWOIAF has established (that would be mean, and too much work as well), but he can if he wants, therefore TWOIAF is semi-cannon, not cannon.

TWOIAF is a book. => It is canon.

[Walda]

Ok, "The published books" means only the (so far) five books in the series that is called the Song of Ice and Fire.

Rann has punctiliously made it clear, straight up, on every occasion, that the published books are the canon.

The World of Ice and Fire, and the Tales of Dunk and Egg are not canon, even though they are about / set in the same world, partly or entirely the original work of GRRM, and meticulously derived from his work, reviewed and approved by GRRM. Even though he holds the copyright and moral rights.

They are semi-canon because GRRM (the creator, and the ultimate arbiter of what is and isn't in the canon of the worlds he creates) knows them and has confirmed they are describing/ part of the same world that the SoIaF takes place in.

eg. Ran has included a text called "Songs the Drowned Men Sing" in the WoIaF. At the moment that text does not exist in the canon.

If, in WoW or DoS, GRRM has a character mention the title, or alludes to the existence of this book (even to claim that such a book never existed), it will become canon.

Or try this: Dunk exists in the canon of SoIaF, because he is mentioned in the SoIaF novels. But in the SoIaF canon he isn't "Dunk of fleabottom", but "Ser Duncan the Tall", an historical figure who was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

If you were talking about the canon of Tales of Dunk and Egg, "Ser Duncan the Tall" is not the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He might or might not make it that far in future Tales. John the fiddler had a dream that he was, and assured him his dreams come true, but we know that the world he lives in is not a world of infallible prophecies. Still, unless and until it is made clear in one of the Tales that he never became Lord Commander, the semi-canon references in the SoIaF can be used as reliable and authoritative evidence that he did in fact make it to the Kingsguard.

Another example: the first edition of the Hobbit is not consistent with the Lord of the Rings canon. Tolkien made changes to ensure that the second edition was part of the canon of the Lord of the Rings. One of them was that Gollum did not willingly bet the One Ring on a game of riddles in the canon, but he did do exactly that in the first edition, according to the Omnificent Narrator, signed off, copyrighted and published by the author, in the first edition.

The problem with canon and non-canon in the Silmarillion is that Tolkein kept revising and changing his mind, and died with 60 years worth of notes, not in chronological order, or dated, and sometimes contradictory. Christopher Tolkein knows better than any other person living which version was the last one Tolkien made, and what his father intended, but sometimes even he isn't certain, and other times, the last version is the least complete, so even though Christopher Tolkein knew that parts of the earlier version were going to be incorporated, and others altered, he didn't always know exactly which or how.

I don't think this would have been different if Tolkein had lived to 100; he kept revising and reviewing, and enlarging his world throughout his life, there is no reason to suppose he would have stopped creating and concentrated on tying up the loose ends and unifying the parallel universes if we had been so lucky as to have him live a few more years. Although, if the Sillmarillion had been published in his lifetime, with him signing off on the final edit, it would be canon, no question, and any discrepancies and inconstancies between it and the Lord of the Rings would be sheeted home as the plot holes and flaws of JRR Tolkein, not attributed to his editors.

ETA: Canon. A Cannon is a big gun. Spelling matters.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

By clearly saying "only the books are Cannon" GRRM has given himself permission to violate every fact established in TWOIAF, and retrofit a new history to match new characters and plot changes he might choose to make in the future.

He has given himself permission to kill off and leave out characters/ chapters he has confirmed in interviews will be in the next book

eg. Pyat Pree

He might even decide to cancel pre-released chapters, or rewrite them.

Yes, the writer can change and edit and rewrite his works before they get printed and shipped to bookstores. They can do that. Actually, GRRM didn't need to do anything to "give himself the right". It's always been his.

Heck, he can alter and revise works already published, too, if he feels like it.

Even if he established beyond doubt in TWOIAF, that the Ibbinese are all squat and hairy, and came from an island smaller than Great Moraq, he can introduce a tall and pale race of men from an Ib, that exile any son too dark or hairy to the sea. He can located Ib in the Summer seas, or attached to the continent of Essos. He can make it the largest island in the world, dispensing with Greater Moraq, and Sothryous too, for all we know (ETA: Actually, if the maps that go with the books are included in the cannon, and he wanted to write Sothoryos out of the book, he might have to attribute its inclusion in the Valeria map to an unreliable cannon source, ). He can't get rid of or change the size or location of Qarth or Essos so easily, because they are in the books.

He probably won't make radical changes that fly in the face of everything TWOIAF has established (that would be mean, and too much work as well), but he can if he wants, therefore TWOIAF is semi-cannon, not cannon.

You do know that TWOIAF is a published book as well?

[Bael's Bastard]

The whole discussion is ridiculous. Canon doesn't mean the information contained within is true or accurate, and "semi-canon" doesn't mean untrue or inaccurate. The finished product will be the finished product, until then we have what we have. With obvious exceptions, GRRM can write something in the main series that contradicts something else he wrote in the main series just as easily as he can write something in the main series that contradicts something he said in an SSM. It is established in an SSM that only children with a noble parent get bastard surnames. He could choose to flip that on its head at some point in the books, but it is nonsensical to act as though it can't be taken as reliable until the main series finishes without contradicting it.

Also, not sure where you are getting the idea that Dunk and Egg and TWOIAF are not canon, as Ran explicitly stated they are.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/?p=7065411

In any case, details in that tree that do not contradict details from the canon (the novels, D&E, the world book) are semi-canon, just as anything else that is sourced from George but not yet published.

[Walda]

Yes, the writer can change and edit and rewrite his works before they get printed and shipped to bookstores. They can do that. Actually, GRRM didn't need to do anything to "give himself the right". It's always been his.

Heck, he can alter and revise works already published, too, if he feels like it.

You do know that TWOIAF is a published book as well?

Indeed. And some authors do go back and rewrite already published works, which alters their canons.

When the author is dead, and therefore cannot be asked which version is the canon one, the custom is to choose the last edition that the author reviewed and authorised for publication as the canon one. The canon version is the version that the author decides is the one that best represents the story s/he is telling.

"Songs the Dead Men Sing" is a published book as well.

ETA: Re. "Ran explicitly said it was canon" - Tricky. It's for GRRM to say what is and isn't cannon in ASoIaF, but Ran has the authority to claim a SoIaF and D&E as part of the canon of his book, TWOIAF, which is not only the most reliable and accurate reference to the world that the other two series are set in, but has also expanded the canon world (the one in GRRM's head, that is used in the other two novels) and communicated a great deal of backstory that we would not have known otherwise. The only reason for the 'semi-' thing is, if there is a difference between TWOIAF and the SoIaF, the SoIaF version is canon.

[LmL]

Ok, "The published books" means only the (so far) five books in the series that is called the Song of Ice and Fire.

Rann has punctiliously made it clear, straight up, on every occasion, that the published books are the cannon.

The World of Ice and Fire, and the Tales of Dunk and Egg are not cannon, even though they are about / set in the same world, partly or entirely the original work of GRRM, and meticulously derived from his work, reviewed and approved by GRRM. Even though he holds the copyright and moral rights.

They are semi-cannon because GRRM (the creator, and the ultimate arbiter of what is and isn't in the cannon of the worlds he creates) knows them and has confirmed they are describing/ part of the same world that the SoIaF takes place in.

eg. Ran has included a text called "Songs the Drowned Men Sing" in the WoIaF. At the moment that text does not exist in the cannon.

If, in WoW or DoS, GRRM has a character mention the title, or alludes to the existence of this book (even to claim that such a book never existed), it will become cannon.

Or try this: Dunk exists in the cannon of SoIaF, because he is mentioned in the SoIaF novels. But in the SoIaF cannon he isn't "Dunk of fleabottom", but "Ser Duncan the Tall", an historical figure who was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

If you were talking about the cannon of Tales of Dunk and Egg, "Ser Duncan the Tall" is not the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He might or might not make it that far in future Tales. John the fiddler had a dream that he was, and assured him his dreams come true, but we know that the world he lives in is not a world of infallible prophecies. Still, unless and until it is made clear in one of the Tales that he never became Lord Commander, the semi-cannon references in the SoIaF can be used as reliable and authoritative evidence that he did in fact make it to the Kingsguard.

Another example: the first edition of the Hobbit is not consistent with the Lord of the Rings cannon. Tolkien made changes to ensure that the second edition was part of the cannon of the Lord of the Rings. One of them was that Gollum did not willingly bet the One Ring on a game of riddles in the cannon, but he did do exactly that in the first edition, according to the Omnificent Narrator, signed off, copyrighted and published by the author, in the first edition.

The problem with cannon and non-cannon in the Silmarillion is that Tolkein kept revising and changing his mind, and died with 60 years worth of notes, not in chronological order, or dated, and sometimes contradictory. Christopher Tolkein knows better than any other person living which version was the last one Tolkien made, and what his father intended, but sometimes even he isn't certain, and other times, the last version is the least complete, so even though Christopher Tolkein knew that parts of the earlier version were going to be incorporated, and others altered, he didn't always know exactly which or how.

I don't think this would have been different if Tolkein had lived to 100; he kept revising and reviewing, and enlarging his world throughout his life, there is no reason to suppose he would have stopped creating and concentrated on tying up the loose ends and unifying the parallel universes if we had been so lucky as to have him live a few more years. Although, if the Sillmarillion had been published in his lifetime, with him signing off on the final edit, it would be cannon, no question, and any discrepancies and inconstancies between it and the Lord of the Rings would be sheeted home as the plot holes and flaws of JRR Tolkein, not attributed to his editors.

Please stop saying ridiculously untrue things and just scroll back up and read RAN's OWN COMMENTS ON THIS THREAD which I posted and which refute your completely baseless, wrong, pulled-directly-out-of-your-ass statements. Your opinion is meaningless when it contradicts Ran's statements and George's statements.

The published books includes all the books about ASOIAF which George hs written. That's Dunk and Egg and TWOIAF also.

[LmL]

The whole discussion is ridiculous. Canon doesn't mean the information contained within is true or accurate, and "semi-canon" doesn't mean untrue or inaccurate. The finished product will be the finished product, until then we have what we have. With obvious exceptions, GRRM can write something in the main series that contradicts something else he wrote in the main series just as easily as he can write something in the main series that contradicts something he said in an SSM. It is established in an SSM that only children with a noble parent get bastard surnames. He could choose to flip that on its head at some point in the books, but it is nonsensical to act as though it can't be taken as reliable until the main series finishes without contradicting it.

Also, not sure where you are getting the idea that Dunk and Egg and TWOIAF are not canon, as Ran explicitly stated they are.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/?p=7065411

This thread is only feeding these trolls, I am afraid, through no fault of the OP. When people can read Ran's statement and continue just making up bullshit, there's nothing really to do except headdesk repeatedly.

ALL BOOKS WRITTEN BY GEORGE MARTIN ABOUT ASOIAF ARE CANON.

There is literally no valid stance on this issue apart from that.

Normally people have a right to be wrong on this board, but not on this issue. Let's not mislead anyone about TWOIAF

[LordStoneheart]

I already do.

Flattered. Truly.

[Cybvep]

Do people really dislike co-authors so much that they think that TWoIF is not canon but some kind of "bastard" book or is it because they don't like some stuff (which stuff, exactly?) in the book?

[Ser Leftwich]

Just want to reintroduce the idea of using 'canonette' or 'canonelle' instead of 'semi-canon,' which is boring.

[idio]

Appreciate you fighting for sanity and logic, Lucifer means Lightbringer.

This entire discussion is just insane to me.

[Bluetiger]

We got exact statement of Admin and co-author of TWOIAF above...

Can we end this discussion and stop feeding these the trolls of Trollshaws? ...

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

It's CANON, with two Ns, not three. Three N "cannon" is a big gun.

[Dofs]

It is canon, though the information there should be taken with a grain of salt. Both because it was written by maester and because what made it into the actual book is shortened version of what Martin actually wrote. For example, he posted the complete Westerlands section on his site and there is much more information there, as well as some stuff that actually contradicts what was printed in the Wolrdbook. So, if Martin decides to publish his extended notes, some canon from the current Worldbook might change.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It is canon, though the information there should be taken with a grain of salt. Both because it was written by maester and because what made it into the actual book is shortened version of what Martin actually wrote. For example, he posted the complete Westerlands section on his site and there is much more information there, as well as some stuff that actually contradicts what was printed in the Wolrdbook. So, if Martin decides to publish his extended notes, some canon from the current Worldbook might change.

What was published on his website was an earlier version of the Westerlands chapter, as it was read at ConCarolinas last year. In between reading that chapter, and releasing the book, some stuff was changed (as it was incorrect), and some stuff was removed, leaving us with what we find in the book.

The fact that this chapter was released on his website, does not mean that the info in that chapter overrules the information in the printed book. The chapter seems to have been released as to share all that was left out of the book with the fans. Instead of rewriting the chapter once more, we simly got the earlier version. It has been suggested that this might happen with other chapters in the future as well.

[Ser Not Appearing]

To quote GRRM, himself:

"Ser Not Appearing is canon. He doesn't appear in the ASOIaF universe."

OK, the real quote about whether or not the World Book was written by him:

"Ah.... actually, it was... with Elio and Linda, sure, but there are tens of thousands of my words in there... this "not written by GRRM" is misinformation.

[Ser Not Appearing]

And another quote:

"Calling it fan fiction is , well, moronic."