The Green Men

[Frey family reunion]

The Green Men share some symbolism with Garth Greenhand, and Garth has his own version of the Corn King tale.

AWoIaF: A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

It was the Worldbook's entry on the Reach that made me start to think of the Harrenhal tourney as being influenced by the Beltane and May Day festivals. It made me think that perhaps I've been focusing too much on the blue winter roses and not enough on the idea of the flowery crown itself. In fact if you take the image of Rhaegar's lance with the flowery crown on the tip and raise it vertically (heh) you basically get the image of a May Pole. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the Order of the Green Hand might still be alive outside of House Manderly, but has turned into a type of secret society. Which might help explain some of the secrets that Rhaegar and his friends seemed to be keeping.

[TreeFaces]

For clarification: Are the Green Men CotF or a group/society of men sworn into the magicks of the CotF that help preserve the pact (and through such take on certain green characteristics) or are they a special group of CotF?

[three-eyed monkey]

It was the Worldbook's entry on the Reach that made me start to think of the Harrenhal tourney as being influenced by the Beltane and May Day festivals. It made me think that perhaps I've been focusing too much on the blue winter roses and not enough on the idea of the flowery crown itself. In fact if you take the image of Rhaegar's lance with the flowery crown on the tip and raise it vertically (heh) you basically get the image of a May Pole. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the Order of the Green Hand might still be alive outside of House Manderly, but has turned into a type of secret society. Which might help explain some of the secrets that Rhaegar and his friends seemed to be keeping.

Hey, nice catch on the May Pole. I don't know about the Order of the Green Hand or how they tie in, but I really believe Rhaegar was influenced by the Green Men, via Howland Reed, in his selection of Lyanna.

For clarification: Are the Green Men CotF or a group/society of men sworn into the magicks of the CotF that help preserve the pact (and through such take on certain green characteristics) or are they a special group of CotF?

That remains unclear. The quotes I posted earlier in the thread are practically everything there is in the books about the Green Men.

[Bael's Bastard]

I've been wondering if the "Green Men" were men who were in some way transformed by the COTF into "something else" as part of the pact.

[Frey family reunion]

For clarification: Are the Green Men CotF or a group/society of men sworn into the magicks of the CotF that help preserve the pact (and through such take on certain green characteristics) or are they a special group of CotF?

Well that's a good question. We don't really know much about the Green Men. I think it seems that they are supposed to be seperate from the COTF. Historically the most prominent aspect of the Green Man was the cycle of death and resurection. And we have a number of characters who would fit that bill.

The first character that comes to mind is of course Coldhands.

"That wasn't his true name," said Gilly, rocking. "We only called him that, Sam and me. His hands were cold as ice, but he saved us from the dead men, him and his ravens, and he brought us here on his elk."

"His elk?" said Bran, wonderstruck.

"His elk?" said Meera, startled.

"His ravens?" said Jojen.

"Hodor?" said Hodor.

"Was he green?" Bran wanted to know. "Did he have antlers?"

The fat man was confused, "The elk?"

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

As the 3eyed monkey noted before one example of the Green Man myths was the legend of Gawain and the Green Knight. In our tale, the closest we get to the story of the Green Knight, is Renly's death and "resurection" at the Battle of Blackwater Bay. In reality the closest parallel between Renly and the Green Knight is the green armor he wore. But a character who has experienced death and rebirth is perhaps specifically linked to this tale when she gazes into said green armor:

Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief.

Considering how strongly Howland Reed is associated with the Green Men, I found this passage kind of interesting as Arya sees through Nymeria, her mother floating down the Green Fork:

Only the scent mattered. She sniffed the air again. There it was, and now she saw it too, something pale and white drifting down the river, turning where it brushed against a snag. The reeds bowed down before it.

[Frey family reunion]

Hey, nice catch on the May Pole. I don't know about the Order of the Green Hand or how they tie in, but I really believe Rhaegar was influenced by the Green Men, via Howland Reed, in his selection of Lyanna.

That's interesting, because I see it kind of reversed, that Rhaegar may have helped bring Lyanna and Howland together.

[Ser Leftwich]

I've been wondering if the "Green Men" were men who were in some way transformed by the COTF into "something else" as part of the pact.

As the First Men adopted the religion of the CotF, it makes sense that the CotF would seek out men that had the greendreams and the greensight.

[three-eyed monkey]

That's interesting, because I see it kind of reversed, that Rhaegar may have helped bring Lyanna and Howland together.

I'm intrigued. Please expand.

As the First Men adopted the religion of the CotF, it makes sense that the CotF would seek out men that had the greendreams and the greensight.

This is an interesting point when you consider Bloodraven. Green Men are often portrayed with branches of trees protruding from their faces, I think there is even a quote in the books that suggests something similar, and of course this matches the description of Bloodraven. So is he a member of the Sacred Order?

[Lord Varys]

The Green Men will come to the fore when the Others have brought down the Wall and are pushing down south hard. Not before. They are obviously not interested in the trivial matters of human affairs and politics - which is evident simply because they have not shown themselves during any conflict in Westerosi history we know of - not during the Conquest and not during the Dance of the Dragons (although they may have conferred with Addam Velaryon during the latter war).

Howland Reed's main interest - if he has any - is the War for the Dawn, too. That's why he has sent/allowed his children to mentor Bran and accompany/lead him to the last greenseer.

The Isle of Faces is most likely the most powerful magical site in Westeros south of the Wall. Every weirwood there supposedly has a face. If there is a place which will become a last resort when the Others hold sway in all of Westeros it will be this place. We know that Bloodraven's cave is beneath another weirwood grove and the wights (and presumably the Others, too) apparently cannot enter that cave. And the Isle of Faces was a powerful place even before the Pact, supposedly the place where the Children sacrificed their own children to cause the Breaking.

If there is any truth to the stories about Garth Greenhand than he may have either been the first Green Men or one of them - suggesting that the Green Men come from a magical tradition the First Men used to follow prior to the Pact (the story makes Garth to be the First Man, after all). Another possibility is that the Green Men are new race/order founded by both First Men and Children together to commemorate the Pact - the story tells that the Green Men are there since the Pact.

Completely into crackpot territory goes the theory that Daemon Targaryen may have joined the Green Men after he successfully killed Aemond and Vhagar. If he survived the fall of the dragon and did not drown, he may have ended up on the island, beginning a new life as a Green Man. In that case, he may still be alive as the Green Men are apparently not recruiting new members indicating that they may either be (more or less) immortal or at least have a natural lifespan encompassing thousands of years. In light of the knowledge about the longevity (immortal unless cut down) of weirwoods this would not come as a huge surprise.

I don't find the idea stupid to have Prince Daemon as a Green Man on the Isle of Faces as the story might be more interesting if a historical character with a connection to the main heroes would introduce them rather than some ancient immortal guy.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

The Green Men will come to the fore when the Others have brought down the Wall and are pushing down south hard. Not before. They are obviously not interested in the trivial matters of human affairs and politics - which is evident simply because they have not shown themselves during any conflict in Westerosi history we know of - not during the Conquest and not during the Dance of the Dragons (although they may have conferred with Addam Velaryon during the latter war).

Howland Reed's main interest - if he has any - is the War for the Dawn, too. That's why he has sent/allowed his children to mentor Bran and accompany/lead him to the last greenseer.

The Isle of Faces is most likely the most powerful magical site in Westeros south of the Wall. Every weirwood there supposedly has a face. If there is a place which will become a last resort when the Others hold sway in all of Westeros it will be this place. We know that Bloodraven's cave is beneath another weirwood grove and the wights (and presumably the Others, too) apparently cannot enter that cave. And the Isle of Faces was a powerful place even before the Pact, supposedly the place where the Children sacrificed their own children to cause the Breaking.

If there is any truth to the stories about Garth Greenhand than he may have either been the first Green Men or one of them - suggesting that the Green Men come from a magical tradition the First Men used to follow prior to the Pact (the story makes Garth to be the First Man, after all). Another possibility is that the Green Men are new race/order founded by both First Men and Children together to commemorate the Pact - the story tells that the Green Men are there since the Pact.

Completely into crackpot territory goes the theory that Daemon Targaryen may have joined the Green Men after he successfully killed Aemond and Vhagar. If he survived the fall of the dragon and did not drown, he may have ended up on the island, beginning a new life as a Green Man. In that case, he may still be alive as the Green Men are apparently not recruiting new members indicating that they may either be (more or less) immortal or at least have a natural lifespan encompassing thousands of years. In light of the knowledge about the longevity (immortal unless cut down) of weirwoods this would not come as a huge surprise.

I don't find the idea stupid to have Prince Daemon as a Green Man on the Isle of Faces as the story might be more interesting if a historical character with a connection to the main heroes would introduce them rather than some ancient immortal guy.

Yes. I think if Daemon is still alive and a Green Man, then it will be because he will be a familiar character.

What I wonder is, what is the difference between a greenseer and a green man? BR is basically a tree now and I think longevity's price is turning into something else and losing humanity, like BR and the Undying.

Maybe green men are men who practice earth magic? Like how Melisandre practices shadowbinding and pyromancy.

[Lord Varys]

The Green Men seem to be different from the greenseers in the sense that they are described differently - they supposedly have green skin and antlers, and that is curiously the same way Garth Greenhand (or the more older simpler version Garth the Green) is described in the older sources which leads me to believe there is something to this. But technically it is also possible/not unlikely that the Green Men are simply some powerful greenseers.

I'm also pretty sure there will be still Children of the Forest on that island - either as members of the Green Men or living with/besides them.

Howland will most likely point whoever he is going to interact with to the Isle of Faces if that is necessary. There must be a reason, though, why he decided to get Bran to Bloodraven rather than to the Isle of Faces if there were indeed greenseers there. And come to think of it - the fact that the Children beyond the Wall seem to believe that Bloodraven is the last greenseer it would be strange if there were any greenseers on the Isle of Faces - or not, if they want to keep that a secret. I'd be surprised if Bloodraven could not see/find out what was going on on island.