The Tyrells absense at the Trident makes NO sense

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We don't know when exactly the battle ended. It may have been sort of lost when Rhaegar fell but that was of course not the case, and if the Kingsguard were still alive by then - which is possible - they would have continued the fight. Thus Prince Lewyn may actually only have died after Rhaegar. That would fit in with Aerys' belief Lewyn and his Dornishmen had betrayed Rhaegar.

We know that the Rhaegar-Robert duel was the last action of the battle. Afterwards, everybody scrabbled for Rhaegar's rubies or surrendered.

Furthermore, you can't have the Robert-Rhaegar duel deciding the battle and the Dornish flank almost overwhelming the Vale afterwards. Doesn't work out.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

We know that the Rhaegar-Robert duel was the last action of the battle. Afterwards, everybody scrabbled for Rhaegar's rubies or surrendered.

Martell still could have died after Rhaegar.

Some men on both sides stopped fighting at once, leaping instead into the river to recover the precious stones. And a general rout quickly began as the royalists started fleeing the field.

Martell could have died in that rout after Rhaegar had died.

[Universal Sword Donor]

It makes no military sense to besiege every castle in the Stormlands. SE was Robert's seat, and was the only one that needed to be besieged.

Conquered the stormlands? They were already conquered close to 300 years ago. The stormlords' strength were with their liege lord, Robert. Holding the stormlands doesn't accomplish any military objectives for the royalists, and they weren't holding the stormlands' castles. The active threat was still at large.

He wasn't told to take SE. Neither Connington nor Merryweather had large armies loyal to them in their presence, and Mace wasn't being made Hand.

You're right. It doesn't make sense to besiege every SL castle. It bleeds off your forces and very probably alienates people who'd be possible allies or neutral in the conflict.

The Stormlands were the definition of unconquered. Robert had gathered forces, defeated loyalists in the SL, and marched across his lands into the Reach (ostensibly to besiege Ashford). The stormlands strength was most definitely *not* with Robert. His entire strength at Stoney Sept could fit into a whorehouse. As to besieging SE, it most definitely accomplish a military objective, though you can argue it wasn't the most prudent method to do so.

Per GRRM: " Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant."

Whether or not Mace was told to take SE -- I think he was -- let's not pretend as if Aerys would be in any mood to reward what he sees as a failure. He's insane. He just burned his hand for opposing mass murder and suicide by fire (well and resigning the position).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Martell still could have died after Rhaegar.

Some men on both sides stopped fighting at once, leaping instead into the river to recover the precious stones. And a general rout quickly began as the royalists started fleeing the field.

Martell could have died in that rout after Rhaegar had died.

...except that he did not die in a rout, but in a strong attack on the Valemen threatening to overwhelm them until Ser Lyn Corbray led the countercharge.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

...except that he did not die in a rout, but in a strong attack on the Valemen threatening to overwhelm them until Ser Lyn Corbray led the countercharge.

Oh yeah, you are right.

The battle at the ford was fierce, and many lives were lost in the fray. Ser Jonothor Darry was cut down in the midst of the conflict, as was Prince Lewyn of Dorne. But the most important death was yet to come.

[Lord Varys]

Well, we can possibly assume that the fighting mostly was about the control of the ford. First Rhaegar sent some men over the river who were then butchered, then the rebels pushed over the river (either using the Ruby Ford or some other ford or made-up bridge) slaying Lewyn Martell. In the end Rhaegar pushed the reserve/center/whatever he was commanding in charge through the ford in an attempt to overwhelm the enemy, met Robert, and died.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Lewyn Martell led the Dornishmen in an attack on the Vale, not the other way round. And that attack can't have gone through the fords, because there are no fords wide enough to accomodate as many men as described.

[Beautiful Balon]

Lewyn Martell led the Dornishmen in an attack on the Vale, not the other way round. And that attack can't have gone through the fords, because there are no fords wide enough to accomodate as many men as described.

YEah but GRMM and sensible sizes don't mix

[OberynBlackfyre]

He outnumbered the enemy and was beat. He didn't utilize important assets, leaving them as glorified guards. By the sounds of it he also allowed the enemy to dictate where the battle took place and as result lost any advantage he had. And yes, he disappeared for much of the war.

That alone is reason to say he was a poor military leader.

well I will definitely consent to him being gone is a show that he is an iffy leader....but I mean when you have people like Barristan Selmy and Prince Lewyn backing you, I don't think it could have been as dismal as you're making it out to be. I mean nowhere at all does it say his position is what made them lose. We get a first hand account from Elder Brother, and he mentions men fighting, but doesn't say that Rhaegars forces were getting slaughtered by any means.

I think what GRRM meant by saying that Robert had the more battle tested soldiers was meaning the battle was akin to say The Golden Company (Roberts forces) versus The Windblown/Stormcrows (Rhaegars forces). Or like how the Unsullied beat the Dothraki at Qohor. Also remember that many soldiers of his were Dornish, somewhat unhappy with the Targaryens, AND another part of the forces were Tyrell bannermen, who hated the Dornish and would probably not do things like defend their flanks, etc. Rhaegar didn't necessarily do any of the planning, as it seems he showed up right about when the Battle of the Trident was about to take place, and used the forces his father had set up. So I think the bad leadership completely stems from Aerys, not Rhaegar. Yes he should be docked for not being there, but I mean if he wasn't there because he was spawning the savior of the world, I think that should give him a pass lol.

[WSmith84]

well I will definitely consent to him being gone is a show that he is an iffy leader....but I mean when you have people like Barristan Selmy and Prince Lewyn backing you, I don't think it could have been as dismal as you're making it out to be. I mean nowhere at all does it say his position is what made them lose. We get a first hand account from Elder Brother, and he mentions men fighting, but doesn't say that Rhaegars forces were getting slaughtered by any means.

He left Gerold Hightower, the commander during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, at the Tower of Joy. He left Randyll Tarly, the only man to successfully beat Robert in battle, in the Stormlands. Those were (almost certainly) his two best and most experienced commanders and Rhaegar wasted them.

[OberynBlackfyre]

He left Gerold Hightower, the commander during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, at the Tower of Joy. He left Randyll Tarly, the only man to successfully beat Robert in battle, in the Stormlands. Those were (almost certainly) his two best and most experienced commanders and Rhaegar wasted them.

where does it say that Hightower was the commander for the War of Ninepenny Kings? And he also left those three there because they were the only ones that stood between the existence fo the Targaryen family if everything else went wrong. I mean Aerys was keeping Elia and the kids because he feared that Dorne was going to betray him-- so obviously Rhaegar wasn't going to put Lewyn in the position of guarding his son with the woman he left Elia for. Also Arthur Dayne was the best fighter at the time, which made him the perfect body guard for Lyanna/Jon.....esp given the fact that he almost killed everyone who came to retrieve her.

Also, the whole Randyll Tarly thing was done by Aerys, not Rhaegar. He had no hand in anything to do with the siege of Storms End....and from reading I can't find anywhere that it says Randyll was for sure at Storms End the whole time.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

where does it say that Hightower was the commander for the War of Ninepenny Kings? And he also left those three there because they were the only ones that stood between the existence fo the Targaryen family if everything else went wrong. I mean Aerys was keeping Elia and the kids because he feared that Dorne was going to betray him-- so obviously Rhaegar wasn't going to put Lewyn in the position of guarding his son with the woman he left Elia for. Also Arthur Dayne was the best fighter at the time, which made him the perfect body guard for Lyanna/Jon.....esp given the fact that he almost killed everyone who came to retrieve her.

Also, the whole Randyll Tarly thing was done by Aerys, not Rhaegar. He had no hand in anything to do with the siege of Storms End....and from reading I can't find anywhere that it says Randyll was for sure at Storms End the whole time.

It says that in the worldbook, he took command after Ormund Baratheon (Robert's grandfather) was killed by Maelys.

[Lord Varys]

OberynBlackfyre,

in TWoIaF. Originally, Jaehaerys' brother-in-law and Hand, Lord Ormund Baratheon, had the command, but he was killed in the first battle. Ser Gerold, then the young and recently appointed Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, took over and apparently kept command until the end of the war.

General battle stuff:

We know that Rhaegar tried to cross the Trident. He was the party that attacked. Perhaps he tried to cross the river at multiple points and he was the one who had the equipment to get many men across. We have to keep in mind that it was late spring/early summer by then, and the Trident may have been running somewhat low by then.

Another possibility would be that Rhaegar got quite a lot of men across the river before the rebels attacked, enabling Lewyn to attack the Valemen.

It is actually quite likely that Tyrell and Redwyne were commanded to lay siege to Storm's End by the Iron Throne. They wouldn't make such a decision on their own nor would the Iron Throne allow them to go through with it if this wasn't what Aerys wanted them to do. Why Rhaegar later did not insist that Mace Tyrell join him with the bulk of his forces is an open question. Perhaps it was deemed unnecessary as Rhaegar already had a huge army?

Tarly is irrelevant in this whole thing - the man seems to have won his first victory at Ashford, and it was Mace who claimed that victory for himself. One should assume that it would take quite some time until the informed circles ended up deducing Tarly was the great guy. On the other hand - I'm not sure if Tarly was actual that much of a military genius at Ashford. Robert would have had to make a major blunder for anyone to defeat him with the vanguard of another army - unless Mace had marshaled a huge chunk of the Reach's forces. Then the Tyrell vanguard may have been about as strong as Robert's entire host after Summerhall - or it may have even outnumbered him.

Lord Randyll is only considered to be 'the best soldier of the Realm' nearly twenty years later.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And he also left those three there because they were the only ones that stood between the existence fo the Targaryen family if everything else went wrong.

lol

They were defeated by 7 Northern men. If Kings Landing and Dragonstone fell what do you think would have happened to 3 men guarding a Tower?

Hightower and Dayne would have been better served commanding the Targ armies rather than preparing for the Westeros version of Three Knights and a Baby.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Another possibility would be that Rhaegar got quite a lot of men across the river before the rebels attacked, enabling Lewyn to attack the Valemen.

Yes, and later was forced to retreat. With Robert catching him at the bottleneck of the fords.

It is actually quite likely that Tyrell and Redwyne were commanded to lay siege to Storm's End by the Iron Throne. They wouldn't make such a decision on their own nor would the Iron Throne allow them to go through with it if this wasn't what Aerys wanted them to do. Why Rhaegar later did not insist that Mace Tyrell join him with the bulk of his forces is an open question. Perhaps it was deemed unnecessary as Rhaegar already had a huge army?

Rhaegar's army was way beyond what could be comfortably fed (~20,000 men) anyway.

Tarly is irrelevant in this whole thing - the man seems to have won his first victory at Ashford, and it was Mace who claimed that victory for himself. One should assume that it would take quite some time until the informed circles ended up deducing Tarly was the great guy. On the other hand - I'm not sure if Tarly was actual that much of a military genius at Ashford. Robert would have had to make a major blunder for anyone to defeat him with the vanguard of another army - unless Mace had marshaled a huge chunk of the Reach's forces. Then the Tyrell vanguard may have been about as strong as Robert's entire host after Summerhall - or it may have even outnumbered him.

Robert had only the support of a relatively small portion of the Stormlands, which itself has only about 30% of the capability of the Reach. It's definitely possible that the "grand battle of Ashford" was 5,000 against 5,000 or the like.

[WSmith84]

where does it say that Hightower was the commander for the War of Ninepenny Kings? And he also left those three there because they were the only ones that stood between the existence fo the Targaryen family if everything else went wrong. I mean Aerys was keeping Elia and the kids because he feared that Dorne was going to betray him-- so obviously Rhaegar wasn't going to put Lewyn in the position of guarding his son with the woman he left Elia for. Also Arthur Dayne was the best fighter at the time, which made him the perfect body guard for Lyanna/Jon.....esp given the fact that he almost killed everyone who came to retrieve her.

Also, the whole Randyll Tarly thing was done by Aerys, not Rhaegar. He had no hand in anything to do with the siege of Storms End....and from reading I can't find anywhere that it says Randyll was for sure at Storms End the whole time.

TWOIAF was my source. And if Rhaegar was so worried about the Targaryen name, why not send Elia and the kids to Dorne when he took command of the army? Hightower didn't need to be at the ToJ; three KG was a waste.

And once Rhaegar took command of the Royal army, he was in charge. Why not send for Randyll Tarly? Wherever he was, it can't have been that hard to send him a raven and command him to join the Royal forces.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaegar did not seem to retreat, though. If he was retreating there wouldn't have been any reason to give in to this duel thing, and considering that the men were fighting around him I'd think Rhaegar was actually trying to cross the ford at that time. Perhaps the rebels lured whatever men Rhaegar had sent at first into a trap - if he used the ford to get them across - and Rhaegar then felt he had to try to cross the river himself. A controlled retreat close to a river/at a ford is very unlikely.

But it is said that the Tyrells forces later swept into the Stormlands. Mace couldn't hope to begin/keep up his siege without a pretty big host. As far as we know he had no trouble with the other Stormlords, suggesting that he had enough power to dissuade them from interfering with him - or he or some of his lords taught those Stormlords a lesson who tried. By that time it was actually quite a smart move for the loyalists to cut off Robert from Storm's End and neutralize the remaining Stormlords as threat as Robert couldn't hope to get any help from his lords this way.

[Lord Varys]

double post

[Fire Eater]

You're right. It doesn't make sense to besiege every SL castle. It bleeds off your forces and very probably alienates people who'd be possible allies or neutral in the conflict.

The Stormlands were the definition of unconquered. Robert had gathered forces, defeated loyalists in the SL, and marched across his lands into the Reach (ostensibly to besiege Ashford). The stormlands strength was most definitely *not* with Robert. His entire strength at Stoney Sept could fit into a whorehouse. As to besieging SE, it most definitely accomplish a military objective, though you can argue it wasn't the most prudent method to do so.

Per GRRM: " Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant."

Whether or not Mace was told to take SE -- I think he was -- let's not pretend as if Aerys would be in any mood to reward what he sees as a failure. He's insane. He just burned his hand for opposing mass murder and suicide by fire (well and resigning the position).

Yes, the stormlands strength clearly was with him. Where do you think his army at Ashford came from?

Mace had the superior numbers on Robert. Connington was sacked after Mace decided to besiege SE not before. Had Mace joined up with Connington at Stoney Sept, the royalists likely could have won with superior

Demonstrating that Robert can't defend his own lands and people would undermine his credibility as a leader, as well as denying him resources.

Except the military resources ie men are currently with him. You still haven't addressed if Mace really needed 50,000 men to besiege a castle a few hundred men, numbers.

[TheNinjaDC]

The simple answer is Mace is a fool who thought he was clever hedging his bets.

If a true commander like Tarly was in charge, he would have left 20,000k troops to take SE by siege. With 500 starving defenders there would be losses, but Stannis would be crushed. Meanwhile, the Tyrel troops in Rheagar's army get boasted by 30k, ensuring a victory or retreat.