Great Bastard groupings

[Daendrew]

Bloodraven didn't kill one Blackfyre, Daemon but he did kill Aenys (IIRC).

Why is Bloodraven still called Brynden Rivers if he was legitimized? Was he not legitmized? He is one of the great bastards. Perhaps the greatest of them.

Why isn't he called Brynden Targaryen?

Do bastards from same mothers behave similarly against the bastards of a different mother? Blackwoods vs Brackens are chief among these.

What mothers had multiple Great Bastards?

[anonnyscouse]

Did any of the Great Bastards take the name Targaryen? As he was a Targaryen loyalist Brynden would never take the same name as the bastards he was fighting against so he kept his original name.

Not sure where Brightflame fits into your post, that's a completely different subject.

[Daendrew]

Did any of the Great Bastards take the name Targaryen? As he was a Targaryen loyalist Brynden would never take the same name as the bastards he was fighting against so he kept his original name.

Not sure where Brightflame fits into your post, that's a completely different subject.

Yeah that's a 1am brainfart.

He was a loyalist but then sent away to rot at the wall. I wonder if that changes his loyalties. And then he changed his loyalty from the watch.

Really really changed his loyalties if you have been following my ideas.

[anonnyscouse]

As to your edit about "groups" of Great Bastards, there weren't any groups, there was only 6 Great Bastards, 3 male and 3 female: Daemon Blackfyre had a Targaryen mother, Aegor Bittersteel's mother was a Bracken (he also had 2 full sisters Mya Rivers and Gwenys Rivers (nothing is known about them except that they were legitimised)), Brynden's mother was a Blackwood. And the final bastard was Shiera Seastar, whose mother was a Lyseni called Serenei.

[GallowsKnight]

Why is Bloodraven still called Brynden Rivers if he was legitimized? Was he not legitmized? He is one of the great bastards. Perhaps the greatest of them.

Why isn't he called Brynden Targaryen?

Politics probably. He sided against a legitimized bastard so perhaps he thought he should downplay the fact he too was an heir to the throne.

As to your edit about "groups" of Great Bastards, there weren't any groups, there was only 6 Great Bastards, 3 male and 3 female: Daemon Blackfyre had a Targaryen mother, Aegor Bittersteel's mother was a Bracken (he also had 2 full sisters Mya Rivers and Gwenys Rivers (nothing is known about them except that they were legitimised)), Brynden's mother was a Blackwood. And the final bastard was Shiera Seastar, whose mother was a Lyseni called Serenei.

Weren't there the girls from House Butterwell as well?

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Bellegere birthed Aegon three children, two girls and a boy of questionable paternity: Bellanora, Narha, Balerion

Megette birthed Aegon four daughters in four years time: Alysanne, Lily, Willow and Rosey

Also not legitimized but maybe Jeyne Lothston and definitely Viserys Plumm

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to your edit about "groups" of Great Bastards, there weren't any groups, there was only 6 Great Bastards, 3 male and 3 female: Daemon Blackfyre had a Targaryen mother, Aegor Bittersteel's mother was a Bracken (he also had 2 full sisters Mya Rivers and Gwenys Rivers (nothing is known about them except that they were legitimised)), Brynden's mother was a Blackwood. And the final bastard was Shiera Seastar, whose mother was a Lyseni called Serenei.

Mya and Gwenys were Brynden's full sisters, not Aegor's.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Bloodraven didn't kill one Blackfyre, Daemon but he did kill Aenys (IIRC).

Why is Bloodraven still called Brynden Rivers if he was legitimized? Was he not legitmized? He is one of the great bastards. Perhaps the greatest of them.

Why isn't he called Brynden Targaryen?

Do bastards from same mothers behave similarly against the bastards of a different mother? Blackwoods vs Brackens are chief among these.

What mothers had multiple Great Bastards?

That you are legitimized doesn't automatically mean you take the name of the House where your parent of nobility is from, I think. You are allowed to do so (if the head of house agrees), you are also allowed to keep your bastard name, or choose a different name alltogether.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

That you are legitimized doesn't automatically mean you take the name of the House where your parent of nobility is from, I think. You are allowed to do so (if the head of house agrees), you are also allowed to keep your bastard name, or choose a different name alltogether.

^This

I think this is where all of the Blackfyres=Targaryens argument comes from.

Being legitimized means you are no longer a "bastard" but not necessarily part of the house that you Father/Mother was in. I think that is up to that House. Which is why they went with Blackfyre... they made an entirely new House.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Yeah that's a 1am brainfart.

He was a loyalist but then sent away to rot at the wall. I wonder if that changes his loyalties. And then he changed his loyalty from the watch.

Really really changed his loyalties if you have been following my ideas.

He wasn't sent away to rot. He broke the rules and chose to take the black. For all we know the whole thing could have been planned. The prophecy about the Targ Dragon who would fight the Others and save Westeros is far older than any of the characters, even those whose lifespans have been enhanced by magic. It may be that Brynden went to the Wall to monitor the threat from the Others.

And he didn't change his loyalty from the Watch either. He is STILL protecting the realms of men.

Someone on the boards said he chose to stick with Rivers. Don't know why.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Politics probably. He sided against a legitimized bastard so perhaps he thought he should downplay the fact he too was an heir to the throne.

Weren't there the girls from House Butterwell as well?

Yes. In theory Aegon IV legitimized ALL of his noble-born bastards. Thing is, only a handful are ever named. There are others out there somewhere. The Tolland girl with the dragon dreams might be descended from one of them.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Someone on the boards said he chose to stick with Rivers. Don't know why.

It could be that he's more loyal to the realm than the Targaryens, and his choice of "Rivers" reflects that fact. I think he would have been raised primarily by the Blackwoods (?), and his first name seems to be Northern or common among the followers of the Old Gods rather than Targaryen.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It could be that he's more loyal to the realm than the Targaryens, and his choice of "Rivers" reflects that fact. I think he would have been raised primarily by the Blackwoods (?), and his first name seems to be Northern or common among the followers of the Old Gods rather than Targaryen.

Brynden as far as I know is a Riverlands name. Brynden Rivers, Brynden Tully. And the Blackwoods keep the Old Gods, or at least kept their weirwood.

Good point about putting the realm first, and the fact that the Targs follow the Seven.

[Lord Varys]

Usually legitimizing means you get the family name the parent that has legitimized you. Jon Snow would have been Jon Stark if Stannis had legitimized, Ramsay Snow is Ramsay Bolton after his legitimization, etc.

My guess is that Brynden Rivers technically is Brynden Targaryen, just as Daemon and Aegor are Targaryens, too. Daemon chose a special name for his house, obviously in opposition to his half-brother Daeron who did not get the sword (I imagine he took that name before he was legitimized and stuck to it after his father's death). And I guess Aegor was happy with this Bittersteel name, too.

Brynden stuck with Daeron II and his descendants and none of them - not even Daeron II - would have been happy with the idea to accept his half-siblings as full siblings with the Targaryen name. Thus he may have kept the Rivers name to make a public show of his loyalty and humility.