How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[Hippo]

This isn't the present day, people like Sam don't survive in asoiaf times.

He wouldn't make a good lord because no one would respect him and he hasn't got the balls to act on stuff.

Look how manderly is looked down upon and he is nothing like Sam. Sam would get eaten alive

[LordStoneheart]

This isn't the present day, people like Sam don't survive in asoiaf times.

People like Sam don't survive in present day times either. Sometime they're killed by their abusive parents. Westeros' "time" doesn't excuse Randyll. Plus, these books were written in the 90s.

[LordStoneheart]

So how you respond to people attempting to reason or even just flat out excusing the actions of a literary character is to snipe nastily at them and make assumptions about their personal nature and character?

Well, it doesn't take the lens of a reading of book to let me know what that says about you as a person.

Looks like I'm in the same category as HelenaExMachina, and for that I am honored.

[Hippo]

People like Sam don't survive in present day times either. Sometime they're killed by their abusive parents. Westeros' "time" doesn't excuse Randyll. Plus, these books were written in the 90s.

Jesus Christ get a grip, kids have been raised much worse and haven't turned out like Sam. No one would want Sam ruling them and that is a fact, he's not smart, he's not witty he's just a fat useless coward.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Easy. It's called delegation. Get Dickon to deal with battles and stuff. Sam can get on with logistics (which is what actually wins wars) and justice.

How is that fair? What if Dickon is married to an heiress and has the opportunity to rule lands of his own, is he supposed to stay at Horn Hill and do his brothers job for him?

It is not just about battle. Lords have minor disputes between their own landed knights fighting amongst each other, neighbouring Lords taking advantage or even raiders from Dorne. Sam had shown repeatedly that when faced with conflict he would back down.

Lords in this world also have to inspire strength as shown how Tytos Lannister almost brought down the Lannisters with his ineffectual rule despite having a brother like Jason who was more competent.

Randyll also organized a powerful marriage with Lord Redwynes daughter which Paxter vetoed after Sam had spent some time at the Arbor. He was unlikely to get a good marriage that would strengthen his family.

It is not that Sam was fat, there are plenty of fat Lords or that he could not fight as I believe Tyrion would make a good Lord but that he had no backbone. That his automatic response to confrontation is to lie down and wait for it to stop. He'd be doomed and could possibly bring the Tarly House down with him.

I'm not saying he could not have succeeded but the odds were against him. If you were Randyl would you really trust the safety and future wellbeing of you family, House and it's people in Sam?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Jesus Christ get a grip, kids have been raised much worse and haven't turned out like Sam. No one would want Sam ruling them and that is a fact, he's not smart, he's not witty he's just a fat useless coward.

No, that's only your opinion and not really a well supported or even a popular one.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

This thread is ridiculous and I pray some posters here never have children. To not like Sam is to not like GRRM.

That is pretty insulting to GRRM.

They are both fat so they must be the same? Jesus?!

[Julia H.]

Whether you like Sam or not, I find it hilarious that most of us who dislike him as a character, either because of who he is as a person or because his POV's are a pain to read, 1. actually provide reasons for why we dislike him.

Reading the responses in favour of Sam most refer to the fact that Sam had a harsh upbringing at Horn Hill and use that to justify his faults. 2. I don't think anyone pro-Sam has accounted for the fact we actually witness him get someone killed due to his inherent weakness as was the case with Small Paul, and that is the key issue for those of us who understand why his father behaved as he did, these were inherent flaws within Sam from no age, not the product of abuse.

1. And several of us have provided reasons why we like him. The OP's question was how anyone can like Samwell Tarly. Quite a few posters have tried to answer this question (myself included).

2. The case of Small Paul and the Other: Sam is not a warrior. He is not physically fit, not cut out for fighting, for enduring those extreme circumstances. That is why his father made a grave mistake when he sent him to the Night's Watch, i.e. chose for him a vocation where he was bound to fail, instead of sending him to the Citadel, where Sam could have done something he was good at. I can't blame him for "getting Small Paul killed". Small Paul was brave to stay behind to help Sam, but it was his choice. I do think that it was an honourable choice, although some could argue that Small Paul was not helping Sam out of selfless reasons:

"He promised I could have a bird," Small Paul said, even though Sam hadn't, not truly. They aren't mine to give. "I want me a bird that talks and eats corn from my hand."

Eventually even Small Paul decides to leave Sam behind - because he has to think of his own survival. Then the Other comes, and Sam, as always, finds it difficult to start fighting. Again: he is not a warrior, was never meant to be one, it is not that easy to overcome physical weakness, clumsiness, lack of skill and a low self-esteem. In the end, when the situation gets truly extreme, there is an opportunity for Sam - given him by Small Paul, it is true, but that happens in fights and battles, even when only brave and skilful fighters are involved. But even then, it is very difficult for Sam to do the killing. He is the kind of person who "couldn't kill a fly". Expecting him to become a warrior is like expecting Hodor to become a maester. It wouldn't be Hodor's fault if he failed. Yet, in the end Sam succeeds. But how exactly?

Do it now. Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands.

What's happening here? Sam hears the mocking words he has heard all his life - his father's, Dickon's, Thorne's - and he can't fight even though his life is at stake. He almost gives up. Then he hears Jon's words, Jon's encouragement. Jon doesn't call him a craven, Jon calls him Sam. Jon sees the human being in Sam, all the backstory behind his cowardice, all the hidden value that could be used, and Sam suddenly becomes a man and kills the Other, the enemy of mankind.

No amount of abuse or mockery or humiliation could help Sam to man up. What gave him strength in the face of extreme danger was the memory of a person who trusted him and saw the good in him for the first time, the memory of a friend who gave him back his human dignity.

Do you think it is an accident that among all the brave warriors and heroes we see in this novel Sam is the only character who has killed an Other so far? It is the fight between humanity and ... the Others. Sam is not a great warrior, but he is absolutely human, in the most positive sense of the word.

[Hippo]

What is Sam good for? Ok he is loyal, can read/write and can look after birds.

I can get that from a maester, Sam is useless and would make a terrible lord.

Even if he didn't have a tough up bringing he would still be the same if not worse. He doesn't try to achieve things he literally gives up at the first try and cries (his training at castle black)

[Hippo]

The reason Sam never achieved at anything he disliked is simply because he didn't try hard enough. If people were calling me a craven I would want to do everything to prove them wrong and prove my worth but Sam? No Sam just refuses and says he can't do it just accepting that he is a craven.

Fair enough Sam might not of been born a fighter but that doesn't stop you from at least trying to improve.

[Winter's Knight]

1. And several of us have provided reasons why we like him. The OP's question was how anyone can like Samwell Tarly. Quite a few posters have tried to answer this question (myself included).

2. The case of Small Paul and the Other: Sam is not a warrior. He is not physically fit, not cut out for fighting, for enduring those extreme circumstances. That is why his father made a grave mistake when he sent him to the Night's Watch, i.e. chose for him a vocation where he was bound to fail, instead of sending him to the Citadel, where Sam could have done something he was good at. I can't blame him for "getting Small Paul killed". Small Paul was brave to stay behind to help Sam, but it was his choice. I do think that it was an honourable choice, although some could argue that Small Paul was not helping Sam out of selfless reasons:

"He promised I could have a bird," Small Paul said, even though Sam hadn't, not truly. They aren't mine to give. "I want me a bird that talks and eats corn from my hand."

Eventually even Small Paul decides to leave Sam behind - because he has to think of his own survival. Then the Other comes, and Sam, as always, finds it difficult to start fighting. Again: he is not a warrior, was never meant to be one, it is not that easy to overcome physical weakness, clumsiness, lack of skill and a low self-esteem. In the end, when the situation gets truly extreme, there is an opportunity for Sam - given him by Small Paul, it is true, but that happens in fights and battles, even when only brave and skilful fighters are involved. But even then, it is very difficult for Sam to do the killing. He is the kind of person who "couldn't kill a fly". Expecting him to become a warrior is like expecting Hodor to become a maester. It wouldn't be Hodor's fault if he failed. Yet, in the end Sam succeeds. But how exactly?

Do it now. Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands.

What's happening here? Sam hears the mocking words he has heard all his life - his father's, Dickon's, Thorne's - and he can't fight even though his life is at stake. He almost gives up. Then he hears Jon's words, Jon's encouragement. Jon doesn't call him a craven, Jon calls him Sam. Jon sees the human being in Sam, all the backstory behind his cowardice, all the hidden value that could be used, and Sam suddenly becomes a man and kills the Other, the enemy of mankind.

No amount of abuse or mockery or humiliation could help Sam to man up. What gave him strength in the face of extreme danger was the memory of a person who trusted him and saw the good in him for the first time, the memory of a friend who gave him back his human dignity.

Do you think it is an accident that among all the brave warriors and heroes we see in this novel Sam is the only character who has killed an Other so far? It is the fight between humanity and ... the Others. Sam is not a great warrior, but he is absolutely human, in the most positive sense of the word.

:cheers:

[Hippo]

Tyrion is a perfect example, he was born a dwarf yet still possesses more fighting ability than Sam. He's also been stepped on and mistreated his whole life and also had an abusive father yet look at him now. Sam has no excuse

Present day then sure Sam is a nice guy with a loving heart but asoiaf times are hard/brutal and Sam would not survive unless he was a maester.

[FoolishOwl]

Julia H.'s descriptions of Samwell are really insightful. Well done.

[apovsic]

Tyrion is a perfect example, he was born a dwarf yet still possesses more fighting ability than Sam. He's also been stepped on and mistreated his whole life and also had an abusive father yet look at him now. Sam has no excuse

Yes, yes look at Tyrion, he only raped a prostiute, not unlike horrible Sam who whines, WHINES! oh what a horrible crime!, all the time.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1. And several of us have provided reasons why we like him. The OP's question was how anyone can like Samwell Tarly. Quite a few posters have tried to answer this question (myself included).

2. The case of Small Paul and the Other: Sam is not a warrior. He is not physically fit, not cut out for fighting, for enduring those extreme circumstances. That is why his father made a grave mistake when he sent him to the Night's Watch, i.e. chose for him a vocation where he was bound to fail, instead of sending him to the Citadel, where Sam could have done something he was good at. I can't blame him for "getting Small Paul killed". Small Paul was brave to stay behind to help Sam, but it was his choice. I do think that it was an honourable choice, although some could argue that Small Paul was not helping Sam out of selfless reasons:

"He promised I could have a bird," Small Paul said, even though Sam hadn't, not truly. They aren't mine to give. "I want me a bird that talks and eats corn from my hand."

Eventually even Small Paul decides to leave Sam behind - because he has to think of his own survival. Then the Other comes, and Sam, as always, finds it difficult to start fighting. Again: he is not a warrior, was never meant to be one, it is not that easy to overcome physical weakness, clumsiness, lack of skill and a low self-esteem. In the end, when the situation gets truly extreme, there is an opportunity for Sam - given him by Small Paul, it is true, but that happens in fights and battles, even when only brave and skilful fighters are involved. But even then, it is very difficult for Sam to do the killing. He is the kind of person who "couldn't kill a fly". Expecting him to become a warrior is like expecting Hodor to become a maester. It wouldn't be Hodor's fault if he failed. Yet, in the end Sam succeeds. But how exactly?

Do it now. Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands.

What's happening here? Sam hears the mocking words he has heard all his life - his father's, Dickon's, Thorne's - and he can't fight even though his life is at stake. He almost gives up. Then he hears Jon's words, Jon's encouragement. Jon doesn't call him a craven, Jon calls him Sam. Jon sees the human being in Sam, all the backstory behind his cowardice, all the hidden value that could be used, and Sam suddenly becomes a man and kills the Other, the enemy of mankind.

No amount of abuse or mockery or humiliation could help Sam to man up. What gave him strength in the face of extreme danger was the memory of a person who trusted him and saw the good in him for the first time, the memory of a friend who gave him back his human dignity.

Do you think it is an accident that among all the brave warriors and heroes we see in this novel Sam is the only character who has killed an Other so far? It is the fight between humanity and ... the Others. Sam is not a great warrior, but he is absolutely human, in the most positive sense of the word.

Claptrap. Sorry, but Sam was faced with death and acted. It had nothing to do with Jon being kind to him.

[Winter's Knight]

Reason's to like Sam

1. Good food taster.

2. Gut him like a ton ton and crawl inside in case of a blizzard.

3, Ample food supply if it comes to eating people.

4. You look much better standing next to him.

5. Provides good cover from arrows.

6. You dont need to out run the white walkers, just him.

7. Excellent seat warmer and bed flattener.

8. Ballast..

9. Good messenger...in case you need to know if they kill messengers

10. about the only pen pal you could have on the wall.

Someone hit the report button for me.

[William_Tell]

Claptrap. Sorry, but Sam was faced with death and acted. It had nothing to do with Jon being kind to him.

Sorry but the text clearly states otherwise. Sam freezes out of terror. He can't act while Small Paul faces the Other. Then we have his thought process on page. When does he finally act? Only after remembering Jon.

[Hippo]

Yes, yes look at Tyrion, he only raped a prostiute, not unlike horrible Sam who whines, WHINES! oh what a horrible crime!, all the time.

But Tyrion had a abusive father and a troubled upbringing! It was his fathers fault!

[HexMachina]

Looks like I'm in the same category as HelenaExMachina, and for that I am honored.

Precisely. I'm not that bad, right? ;)

[Julia H.]

The reason Sam never achieved at anything he disliked is simply because he didn't try hard enough. If people were calling me a craven I would want to do everything to prove them wrong and prove my worth but Sam? No Sam just refuses and says he can't do it just accepting that he is a craven.

Fair enough Sam might not of been born a fighter but that doesn't stop you from at least trying to improve.

That's a question of self-confidence and self-esteem, the things that abuse and humiliation can take away from people. It is also important who calls you a craven. If you get encouragement and trust from your parents as a child, you are likely to be better armoured against outsiders' attacks. If your father treats you like worthless dirt, you are more likely to believe it. A father's opinion is usually extremely important to a son. We see that with various characters in ASOIAF.

Tyrion is a perfect example, he was born a dwarf yet still possesses more fighting ability than Sam. He's also been stepped on and mistreated his whole life and also had an abusive father yet look at him now. Sam has no excuse

Present day then sure Sam is a nice guy with a loving heart but asoiaf times are hard/brutal and Sam would not survive unless he was a maester.

Well, Tyrion had one thing to emotionally cling to:

During all the terrible years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything.

Also, Tywin at least did not have various strangers "stretch" Tyrion to make him taller. Tyrion was at least left to live his life as a Lannister most of the time. No one expected him to do things he could not do.

It is true that Tyrion had different strategies than Sam to survive his childhood. But I still wouldn't say that Tyrion turned out to be totally all right as a person. Patricide is a pretty suspicious sign that something went horribly wrong.

Claptrap. Sorry, but Sam was faced with death and acted. It had nothing to do with Jon being kind to him.

Well, I quoted the text of the novel. Sam remembers all those mocking words when he should already be acting and he keeps thinking of becoming a wight. He even giggles hysterically. Then he remembers Jon's words and imagines Jon encouraging him and then, only then does he attack the Other. Yes, the mortal danger is a huge part of it, but Jon's kindness (which was not just kindness, BTW) has everthing to do with it as well. It's in the text. GRRM shows us the contrasting effects of Sam's different memories in a critical situation. One type of memories keeps him from acting, the other type of memories helps him to attack. As it happens, he hesitates when he remembers being called a craven, and he acts when he hears a friend's encouragement "you can do it". It was written like that by the author.