R+L=J v.146

[Shpati]

Anyone else think it could be Benjen to tell Jon about R+L=J, not Howleed?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The war is counted from Jon Arryn calling his banners until the Sack.. That's not 20 months of war.. The war itself lasted only "close to a year".

Dany was born on Dragonstone 9 moons after Rhaella's flight from King's Landing. The exile of the remaining Targaryens and Robert's complete control of the seven kingdoms marked the end of the war.

9 months plus close to a year...

The battle of Gulltown was the first recorded battle of the war. It is kind of difficult for war to "rage" without battles.

My point was that the war did not last 20 months, a number you reached in your post above.

Those 8,5 months between the Sack and Dragonstone's fall don't seem to be counted as war..

Anyone else think it could be Benjen to tell Jon about R+L=J, not Howleed?

Possibly.. if he's still alive.

[Lord Varys]

Dates:

It makes no sense to assume Selmy's mind referred to the stuff somebody told him in any literal sense. If I tell you something, you memorize the information, not the words I used, and subsequently Selmy remembers information about Ashara, not the sentences he was told about her. Consequently, the 'soon' in this whole thing is Selmy's own insertion - he gives us the time of her death in relation to her stillborn daughter that way. Nearly two decades later 'soon' can be roughly a year. Around the time of Ashara's death it would be improper to say she killed herself soon after her stillbirth.

Generally, the dates given at the beginning of AGoT aren't all that good. The story seems to have changed later - Cat relates the story as if her wedding was near the beginning of the war which simply isn't the case. But the whole stuff still can make sense if Cat's general claim that Ned warred in the South refers to a longer period of time he spent in the Stormlands/Reach and Dorne after the Sack. This would have been a way for Ned to obscure things and make his story plausible that he chanced upon a woman and fathered a bastard on her down there. If Wylla and Jon had traveled to Winterfell/arrived there before a woman Ned impregnated after the Trident/Sack could have given birth to a child the whole cover story would have fallen apart.

We cannot squeeze nine months into the time after the Battle of the Bells and the Sack. That simply doesn't work. And it is also not necessary. We can assume that Cat and Ned did not see each other because Ned simply did not return to Riverrun after the war was won but stayed down in the South and then in KL for quite some time. He may also have spent some time with Robert after their reconciliation. It may even be that Cat and Ned only met each other again at Winterfell, as Cat doesn't state anything about herself arriving together with Ned there - it may be that Ned instructed Cat/sent a contingent of men to escort her from Riverrun to Winterfell while he took a ship from KL to White Harbor and traveled home from there. Ned may have not been particularly eager to be reunited with this 'strange wife' after he had just lost Lyanna in addition to Brandon and Rickard, not to mention that whatever he and Ashara had going on might have been over for good, too. If Ned was in love with her and received the news about her suicide before his return to Winterfell (at KL, for instance) he would have suffered another blow.

And if Ashara actually killed herself the loss of Ned may have been the reason for that. Ser Arthur was only her brother, and a KG is expected to die doing his duty. That should not have broken her. But Arthur's death, Ned's involvement in it, the stillbirth, and the loss of the man she (may have) loved should be enough to break her. The tragedies would have piled up for her in the last year.

Oh, and people make generally mistakes if they casually remember dates 15 years later. We should actually expect more mistakes than we have...

[BearQueen87]

Anyone else think it could be Benjen to tell Jon about R+L=J, not Howleed?

As time goes on, I'm less inclined to think that Ben is still alive. But, if he is, I do think he has something to tell Jon (though, in this series being dead doesn't exactly mean that you can't get a message across)

[MtnLion]

I mentioned this on the first page of the thread, but apparently, no one saw it?

Rhaenys_Targaryen, on 27 Jun 2015 - 2:34 PM, said:

Does anyone have any idea's?

Ned goes on about how he had vowed never to forget his friends, but that their faces are now shadows in his mind lets him down. The Kingsguard, on the other hand, have clear and distinct features, and are sharply remembered. It is a clue about how highly Ned revered the three, since they are more clearly remembered while Ned's companions are not.

[MtnLion]

Only the books by George are canon. Ran even confirmed this with Weasel Pie. Remember? The app is "semi canon".

And as for the WB, straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.vulture.com/2014/11/george-rr-martin-new-book.html

I'd include D&E with the canon since GRRM wrote those books himself.

I am confused. Being semi canon, one sentence is being objected to as "subjective"?

[stateofdissipation]

My point was that the war did not last 20 months, a number you reached in your post above.

Those 8,5 months between the Sack and Dragonstone's fall don't seem to be counted as war..

but considering that there didn't pass nine months between Ned's wedding and the end of the war it is all but impossible that this is the case.

The war had raged for close to a year to the sack of King's Landing according to Ned.

Gulltown to King's Landing close to a year.

Dany was born 9 moons after the sack. (before the fall of Dragonstone and the end of the war)

That is 20 months of war spanning 282-284

The post above.....

Those 8,5 months between the Sack and Dragonstone's fall don't seem to be counted as war..

The 20 months stated above specified the end as the fall of Dragonstone...

[stateofdissipation]

double post

[MtnLion]

My point was that the war did not last 20 months, a number you reached in your post above.

Those 8,5 months between the Sack and Dragonstone's fall don't seem to be counted as war..

I believe that they may be counting from war's beginning until the fall of Dragonstone. But, the problem that one will encounter with this thinking is that it took Stannis a year to build the fleet, how long to equip it, and how long to sail to besiege and take Dragonstone? We know that Daenerys was young when Darry took her and Viserys to Braavos, but it is extremely unlikely that she was a newborn. ;)

[Sasha Steelsong]

While I believe that "firstborn son of Rhaegar" might be a hint to the reader that Rhaegar might have had more than one son, I think that in-story, Jon is simply emphasizing that Aegon is Rhaegar's heir, for the purpose of Aegon's conquest.

With JonCon's negative memories of Rhaegar's wedding to Elia, I would find it strange if he would completely omit Rhaegar's second wedding, if he had known about it.

Yeah I just don't think he knew about it. He was hand during the Battle of the Bells, Rhaegar was already missing and in hiding by this point. Plus as close as they were it's easy to see Rhaegar not feeling comfortable telling his father's hand his plans with Lyanna. As JonCon went into exile immediately thereafter I can see him being in the dark to this day as to the details about what transpired with Lyanna. In fact I don't even recall him mentioning her, which given that her kidnapping played a major part in starting the war, seems a little odd.

[MtnLion]

Forgive me for intruding here, but how did you come to the conclusion that Arthur and Whent were Rhaegar's sworn swords, without the app? The Summerhall thing doesn't imply that Arthur and Whent were Rhaegar's sworn swords as Rhaegar went there without any Kingsguard. Not just Whent and Arthur

"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

Evidence of who is present at the tower of joy. Whent and Dayne must have been with Rhaegar, as his sworn swords, and Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar and have him return to King's Landing.

[Mother of Dragons]

I am confused. Being semi canon, one sentence is being objected to as "subjective"?

I'm not sure what you're asking me. I don't think Dayne & Whent were at the Trident with Rhaegar, either.

[MtnLion]

I'm not sure what you're asking me. I don't think Dayne & Whent were at the Trident with Rhaegar, either.

Earlier you objected quoting three sentences, and only one has a basis in the App, and is clearly stated as coming from the App. Now, explain to me why it is "subjective".

I think it's been established that we can't use excerpts from the app as canon:

Let's try to focus on what we know directly from the text, it gets confusing if we start throwing in subjective accounts.

[Mother of Dragons]

Earlier you objected quoting three sentences, and only one has a basis in the App, and is clearly stated as coming from the App. Now, explain to me why it is "subjective".

No, I think you misunderstood me. I was objecting to using the quote from the app (which was listed as a reference) not to everything you said. People might start confusing things from the app as direct sources from the books.

[MtnLion]

No, I think you misunderstood me. I was objecting to using the quote from the app (which was listed as a reference) not to everything you said. People might start confusing things from the app as direct sources from the books.

Is it possible that you made a misstatement? Read the post that I quoted, it is yours, and note the highlighted portion: "subjective accounts". I just want to understand how you defined the App's statement as a "subjective account". The App being semi-canon can provide clarifying information, or even disinformation, but it is the best we have at present regarding who was with Rhaegar. The World book gives a larger number.

[Mother of Dragons]

Is it possible that you made a misstatement? Read the post that I quoted, it is yours, and note the highlighted portion: "subjective accounts". I just want to understand how you defined the App's statement as a "subjective account". The App being semi-canon can provide clarifying information, or even disinformation, but it is the best we have at present regarding who was with Rhaegar. The World book gives a larger number.

I think the app is subjective because imo it was written with an RLJ bias. But no matter, Mtn Lion, you're probably correct.

[Sly Wren]

Look at the context. What reason does Cersei have to fear Bran discovering that she and Jaime have been doing the deed? If Robert finds out, her children are likely to lose their inheritance, at least. In this context Ned first thinks in the abstract about how he would weigh up his children against someone else's, then goes on to think specifically about Cat weighing up hers against Jon. Why the specific example, unless it bore a more direct correlation? It's more than just the maternal thing, because he thinks specifically about Jon being the threat, and Jon to Ned & Cat's kids is hardly of Bran to Jaime & Cersei's kids.

If Jon is Rhaegar's son, then if Robert finds out, he'd be likely to take some action. He'd not be happy with Ned. He might well, for example, exile Ned. If Ned was obstinate (perhaps having a promise he was determined to keep) it might even come to war. That represents a threat to Cat's children. Jon, if the son of Rhaegar, represents the same danger of turning Robert into a threat to Cat's children as Bran does of turning Robert into a threat to Cersei's children.

Unless Ned thinks of Jon as being this kind of potential threat to Cat's kids, it's hard to see why he'd come up with that specific example at all. That he does think this way explains perfectly why he'd keep a secret even from her.

Agree the context has some impact. Cersei fears for her kids' lives per se. Ned thinks he might sacrifice an unknown child for his own. Then that Cat might sacrifice Jon--But the scene and context aren't just specific to a secret. Ned's thoughts seem to fit any life or death situation. And, whether Cat knows about Jon or not, she's a threat to Jon. Not knowing Jon's parentage, she's just insisted he be sent away. She's also just snapped and taken Tyrion--Ned has reason to fear her impulsiveness and temper per se, not just tied to Jon's probably secret.

But I agree that the scene is suggestive, and that Cat could be dangerous if she knew the secret. But I still struggle to see how or why she'd act against Jon because of the secret. It's only a threat if Robert or someone close to him discovers the secret. So keeping it is in her best interest. She may be impulsive, but she's not suicidal. But I admit that's my interpretation, not fact.

Bottom line: I may not get Ned's take on this entirely, but I do think he'd keep Jon's paternity a secret if Lyanna asked him to, regardless of what that paternity is. Safe or not--he'd do it for her. Cat very well may be high on Ned's list of concerns. But concerned or not, I think the promise to Lyanna would insure Ned's silence. Period.

[Sly Wren]

Anyone else think it could be Benjen to tell Jon about R+L=J, not Howleed?

Yes, actually. Both Howland and Benjen seem likely to have a lot of backstory, so both would work. Or a vision. But I fully admit a prejudice to A. seeing Benjen again and B. having Jon find out about his parentage from someone he knows and trusts. If nothing else, Jon's in for a rough day when that info comes down. Having real family--think it would help.

[Shiny!!]

Nothing it's certain at this point but the hints are strongly in favor of R+L=J, as of now. That's all I'm saying. ;)

Jon looks like a Stark, more like Arya who looked like Lyanna.

Cersei would have absolutely no reason to look for Rhaegar.

Cersei pledges her love for Rhaegar as for a long time ago. This be why she has stayed mad with Lyanna. The Lady Lyanna steals her two loves in life- have Robert and Rhaegar and Cersei left only for her brother passions.

When Cersei has staying with Starks on Winterfell she has eyes on Jon Snows. Because Rhaegar is Jon's real paternity, Cersei can see Rhaegar in Jon if he looks much Targaryen. Cersei is jealous woman, her eyes flying everything.

You have reason. Jon is Stark look not Rhaegar look, but Rhaegar has dark Martell looking in his heritage. Jon must looks as Martell-Stark because no silver hairs. If Jon looks like dragon kings, no more story. GRRM does not giving us easy answers.

Ran and Linda believe in this theory too, giving it more merit. Big Bang is 'only' theory also! Hahaha!

[Shiny!!]

I'm afraid that I'm not following. The Summerhall quote shows that Rhaegar always travelled with Kingsguard, except when he went to Summerhall. When Rhaegar left to elope with Lyanna, he therefore would have taken Kingsguard with him as he was not going to Summerhall if he met her in the Riverlands. So he ultimately would have left whoever he took with him at the Tower of Joy. The fact that he left Arthur and Oswell is no proof that they were his sworn swords as we're told that he always had Kingsguard with him. They could just have been the two on Rhaegar's rotation at that time, or the one's not being doing anything.

I would say the evidence for Arthur and Oswell being his sworn swords is more in the fact that Arthur and Rhaegar were close friends, and that Oswell was willing to go behind Aerys back to set up the Harrenhal tourney

The MtnLion has just proofed you from before that Rhaegar is protecting with his Knights from the official's app. Check also Wikipedia as having verifying sources. GRRM corrects these facts for publication and that's why they stay to be official. The author helped engineering these extras for fans to review further truths from more sources.