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BRAN’S GROWING POWERS AFTER his FINAL POV in ADwD


evita mgfs

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Hey b00gieman!  Thanks for your post, and welcome to Bran's growing powers.  :D

The text you posted is key to this thread, Evita has a wonderful essay up thread regarding this encounter.  You have a keen eye and understanding of what we're looking for here, hopefully we'll see you again with more great ideas.  :)

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On 4/2/2016 at 7:44 AM, b00gieman said:

 

Hello again.  I have been to your blog and I have read your theories.  I think your observations are amazing and informed, an you know the texts of which you write quite well.:wub:

Since I do not own the books of which you write, my mother is ordering them for me on Amazon for my birthday coming up here on April 15, but I have also asked for ten Dark Horse figurines.  My mom is a much better bargain hunter than I am, so I ask her to do my shopping online.  She  has coupons and discounts and free shipping because she is a ravenous reader, a trait she instilled in me and my four sisters.

About the HBO show, I hope that the powers that be do not make us wait to learn the fate of Jon Snow.  I figure that he will not warg Ghost in the show as I anticipate Jon will do in the books.

Do I think Jon is dead?  Yes, I fear I have come to this conclusion.  Maester Aemon says that he must kill the boy, and although this is metaphoric, I also think it must be literal as well.  Jon Snow must die to be reborn in ice and fire - and to be able to lead an army of the dead.

Not that I think he will lead the wights.  Jon has an army of another ilk he will lead.

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20 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey Evita, that's page fourteen!!!   :wub:

 

20 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Evita, you are on form!  Some awesome posts, so much to take in.  Forgive a simple appreciation post, I have nothing to add but admiration.  :wub:

Yippee!  Let's party on the thread.  Drinks for everyone!  :cheers:

Thank you for your appreciation.  You are my Wonderful Wizard of Oz:D - and you are tireless in your most observant contributions to this thread and other threads I have visited.

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Fellow scholars who have some familiarity with the Catholic Mass, I appreciate your help on some bothersome ideas that have been coming to me in rapid succession.  Maybe someone will ascertain what I am trying to say and what my disorganized ramblings might mean.

1)   After Ravenous Reader’s post detailing the Transubstantiation of Christ, which is “the teaching that during the Mass, at the consecration in the Lord's Supper (Communion), the elements of the Eucharist, bread and wine, are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are no longer bread and wine but only retain their appearance of bread and wine” [https://carm.org/transubstantiation] I started to see parallels with Bran especially regarding elements of the Catholic Mass and its many mysteries.

2)   By Bran ingesting weirwood paste, which the CotF likely harvested from the tree to which Bloodraven is bound, then Bran literally and figuratively is partaking of the body and blood of his teacher Lord Brynden, whom Leaf tells readers has given himself to the tree.

3)   Martin admits that he is a non-practicing Catholic; however, at one time the author attended Mass and probably received several of the Holy Sacraments:  Baptism, Communion, Confession, and Confirmation are the four he may have experienced if his parents guided him in his faith through the eighth grade.  With this possibility, Martin may draw from his catechism classes and scripture readings as well as from experiencing and participating in the Mass.

In an excerpt from the essay “Transubstantiation and the Real Presence”, author Matt Slick tries to explain in laymen’s terms the enigma of “Transubstantiation”.  The mystical powers of “blood” that Martin’s characters have often mentioned plays into Slick’s explanations, and mayhap Martin’s thematic elements that feature blood and that intimate cannibalism are somehow inspired by the Catholic Masses that he attended in his youth. 

“Because they [bread and wine] are the presence of Christ himself, Catholics worship and adore the elements.

“The Mass contains a series of rituals leading up to the Lord's Supper which also contains a reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ. Furthermore, transubstantiation states that the substance of the elements are miraculously changed even though their appearance is not. In other words, the bread and wine will appear as bread and wine under close scientific examination, but the true substance is mystically the Body and Blood of Christ. Synonymous with transubstantiation is the doctrine of the Real Presence. Where transubstantiation is the process of the change, the real presence is the result of that change. In other words, the doctrine of the real presence states that the bread and wine contain the actual presence of Christ in bodily form as a result of the process of transubstantiation. Roman Catholicism states that the incarnation of Christ itself--where Jesus was a man but contained an invisible divine nature--is analogous to the doctrine of the real prese nce.

a)    Bran eating the weirwood paste assists his “process of the change”; that is, Bran’s indoctrination into his greensight [slipping his skin and entering the roots and the tree itself, is achieved by not only partaking of BR’s body and his blood, but also through Bran’s blood and its rich genetic profile, a fact that Leaf confirms.

B)    “the real presence is the result of that change”:  The ritual in which Bran takes part results in Bran looking through the eyes of the heart tree in Winterfell as the “real presence” of a greenseer.

c)    “. . . the weirwood paste bread and wine contain the actual presence of Lord Brynden Christ in bodily form as a result of the process of greenmagic transubstantiation”.

d)   Now that Bran is in Bloodraven’s tree, which is a portal to Bran’s acquisition of even greater magic, Lord Brynden will likely be cognizant of the presence that is Bran.  Neither will have secrets that the other does not know.

e)    LONGRIDER addressed the mystique and magic with which Martin seemingly endows “albinos”, such as Bloodraven, Ghost, and the weirwoods themselves.

The HolyTrinity

the Father [BR], the Son [Bran], and the Holy Ghost [Jon’s direwolf]

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Now that Bran is in Bloodraven’s tree, which is a portal to Bran’s acquisition of even greater magic, Lord Brynden will likely be cognizant of the presence that is Bran.  Neither will have secrets that the other does not know.

 

LONGRIDER addressed the mystique and magic with which Martin seemingly endows “albinos”, such as Bloodraven, Ghost, and the weirwoods themselves.

The HolyTrinity

the Father [BR], the Son [Bran], and the Holy Ghost [Jon’s direwolf]

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25 minutes ago, evita mgfs said:

Hello again.  I have been to your blog and I have read your theories.  I think your observations are amazing and informed, an you know the texts of which you write quite well.:wub:

Since I do not own the books of which you write, my mother is ordering them for me on Amazon for my birthday coming up here on April 15, but I have also asked for ten Dark Horse figurines.  My mom is a much better bargain hunter than I am, so I ask her to do my shopping online.  She  has coupons and discounts and free shipping because she is a ravenous reader, a trait she instilled in me and my four sisters.

About the HBO show, I hope that the powers that be do not make us wait to learn the fate of Jon Snow.  I figure that he will not warg Ghost in the show as I anticipate Jon will do in the books.

Do I think Jon is dead?  Yes, I fear I have come to this conclusion.  Maester Aemon says that he must kill the boy, and although this is metaphoric, I also think it must be literal as well.  Jon Snow must die to be reborn in ice and fire - and to be able to lead an army of the dead.

Not that I think he will lead the wights.  Jon has an army of another ilk he will lead.

I agree with you that he is dead but he will be reborn as Azor Ahai IMO.  "Kill the boy and let the man be born"  I also believe that Jon will lead the White Walkers at least for a time but I don't think them to be the bad guys that everyone thinks that they are.

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On 4/1/2016 at 2:56 AM, b00gieman said:

To me this indicates proof positive that Bran has evolved further than the Three-Eyed Crow

I was wanting to contrast this dream with the points I was making last night but it was too late. I came back to address it this AM, only to find b00gieman was too quick for me ..:ph34r: :D .. (actually, real life interrupted me halfway through this and I that was now two days ago).. :angry:... Anyway, thoughts of Jon's wolf dream in ADWD is why I said...

On 4/1/2016 at 2:23 AM, bemused said:

That's not to say Bran couldn't do it, or wouldn't ever do it... but if he ever did, I think it would be for something really important

Jon's ACoK dream is much more critical to the overall plot, than Theon walking the battlements while Bran is in the crypts. Without this dream, Qhorin might never have made Jon promise to sacrifice his honour for the common good. Jon might not have survived to get back to CB and hold the wall against Mance.. and a cascade of dominos might have followed.

This dream gives us another very complicated puzzle to solve, and even though Bran seems to be clearly involved, I still can't say for certain that Bran is acting entirely on his own.

There are a number of points to consider. For one, what or who prompts Ghost to climb up to that outlook ? I could veer off into a lo-o-o-ng side issue here, but I'll just summarize - I think Ghost's name is so appropriate because Jon will find the ghost/shadow of another being in his wolf when he finally wargs fully. (Whose, is debatable.) ... Though Jon has wolf dreams following this, they're not as clear as  this one, which comes to him unencumbered by the need to translate from wolf -thought to man-thought while still in the dream.(e.g. he sees, recognises fully, and understands in human terms, the military exercises some of the wildlings are engaged in..) Afterwards, his wolf dreams revert to the same sort of wolf dream that Bran and Arya have had.

In his later wolf dream in ADWD, Jon I, we do get more wolf-thought or wolf-speak.. "a pale cliff as tall as the sky" , for the wall, etc. .. I'll hide it here, for space saving purposes ..
 

Spoiler

 

The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

“Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees. Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail
beneath the icy cliff
. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath
frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

“Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!”
His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face. 

I get the distinct sense that there are two intelligences at work (perhaps more).. who are not exactly of the same mind. They seem to want two different things, or perhaps they have the same ultimate  goal, but aren't agreed on the best way to achieve it. Ghost himself, like Jon, yearns for his pack, but I think there must be some greenseer presence in Ghost, because while Ghost may have a strong sense that his siblings are alive, I don't see how he could have a clear picture of what they're doing without being somehow connected to the "weirnet". (In the earlier ACoK dream Ghost senses... There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. )

Bloodraven is observing the dream ,sensed by Ghost as the moon. "Bloodraven/Raven/Moon" wants Jon to wake up, because it would be too risky to have him know the whereabouts of his human "siblings", just yet. It might distract him from the task at hand... Ghost, or the shadow that is in Ghost, doesn't want Jon to wake, perhaps wanting to give him a stronger sense of - not only are his siblings alive, but where they are. ... However, I can't see this tug-of-war as BR vs. Bran, since Bran himself saw the wisdom in not telling Jon about his and Rickon's survival. (When he was at the Nightfort, Bran and CH both, separately, swore Sam to secrecy.)

I don't want to digress into picking the ADWD dream apart (though there's plenty to pick at). I just want to consider who might be at work in both dreams, and how the dreams differ.

I agree that Bran very possibly is in the ACoK dream, but I suspect he's not solely responsible for it because I think Ghost was led / directed to observe Mance's camp. Here, Bran and BR (or possibly another) are acting in tandem.. 

Spoiler

as we will see them acting in tandem in the ravens in Stannis' camp, in TWoW.

One possibility that lurks in the back of my mind is that there are a number of CoTF greenseers with enough physical life to open their eyes and watch Bran/Hodor in his ramblings, and at least one who tries to speak. I think Bran and Bloodraven are pretty much of one mind on how to proceed .. at least so far. But some of these other greenseers might still be "awake" enough that they might still have slightly variant personal opinions. (This is an option, not necessarily a conclusion.)

If it was Bran who didn't want Jon to wake, then it would show a Bran that was still somewhat unpracticed - revealing more than he should, perhaps because of his own yearnings. This would not be compatible with his confident presence in the earlier ACoK dream or the evidence of his presence in the WF godswood (or the TWoW Theon chapter).

I think this suggested difference of opinion carries through in another dream , which I broke down in more detail in this thread..  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/130451-jon-the-berserker/

Without repeating it all here, I think that among other clues, Jon's flaming sword dream in Jon XII, ADWD reveals his innate "berserker" nature and once again, he is awakened from  the dream before it reaches a conclusion.

An excerpt from the dream.. 

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

        … and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried.

Hello again, Bloodraven. .. Before I began to see this meaning in the dream, like many posters, I puzzled a bit over who the "gnarled hand" might represent. Of course it's BR. He's becoming part of the tree's root system, and tree roots are frequently described as gnarled. ... So, if he wants Jon to wake, who is trying to alert to Jon important facets of his nature ?

I don't think it would be Bran. Whether you think the flaming-sword part of the dream (suggesting AA) is most important, or like me, you think the indescriminate-killing-machine part is at least equally important, once again , this would not be the best time for Jon to become aware of any of it.

It could be counter productive for Jon to see himself as displacing Stannis, or to recognize his inner  "berserker" potential, when he's only really scratched the surface of what it is to be a warg.. He needs no distractions (positive or negative) as he's setting out to let Tormund's people through the wall.

So to reiterate, I think that potentially, Bran, BR and possibly another intelligence are variously present in Jon's dreams... but there is one more possible contributing factor - Jon himself. Jon is half Targaryen, and some Targaryens have premonitive dreams.

In the Dunk and Egg stories we get to see how two of these dreams work.

Spoiler

 

From The Hedge Knight, Prince Daeron, speaking to Dunk...  

"I dreamed of you," said the prince.
"You said that at the inn."
"Did I? Well, it's so. My dreams are not like yours, Ser Duncan. Mine are true. They frighten me. You frighten me. I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead."

In The Mystery Knight (from Daemon / John the Fiddler)...  

"Why," the Fiddler said, "I dreamed that you were all in white from head to heel, with a long pale cloak flowing from those broad shoulders. You were a White Sword, ser, a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard, the greatest knight in all the Seven Kingdoms, and you lived for no other purpose but to guard and serve and please your king."  ... and later in the story Dunk asks ...

"What do you want of me?"
"Your sword. I would make you mine own man, and raise you high. My dreams do not lie, Ser Duncan. You will have that white cloak, and I must have the dragon's egg. I must, my dreams have made that plain. Perhaps the egg will hatch, or else—"
 

Even later, Bloodraven  explains to Dunk... "There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong."

Jon has as much Targaryen blood as the Fiddler. It's possible that he has a touch of the Targaryen "gift", himself. I don't mean that the dream of Bran is his dream alone, but would that "gift" contribute to the clarity in interpreting what Ghost sees? Does it play a part in the way that Bran appears to him?

I have some problems with Bran reaching back into the past. I believe he can, otherwise Leaf would have had no need to warn him not to seek to call Ned back from death. She wasn't talking about physical resurrection (Ned would only be a collection of bones). She was talking about revealing things to Ned that would have caused him to make different decisions (perhaps resulting in Bran not becoming a greenseer, or Jon not going to the Wall, perhaps not letting the direwolf cubs live etc.,etc.)

However, I also believe it's critical that Jon should have this dream. The question is, from what point in the future would Bran reach back, if it's him? I would think it would need to be as close to Jon's present as possible, to minimize the chance of unintended consequences. ... I'm not sure Bran has developed quite that much skill by the end of ADWD / the Theon TWoW chapter, and the further ahead in time we go, the riskier it would become.

**Just a note - I've had a busy week and it's taken me days to complete this, a paragraph or two at a time. Over that time, some things have come into sharper focus - and I may have found answers to some of my own questions. ** 

Delivering this dream to Jon takes quite a bit of planning and set up, and as I said, I tend to think it could/would involve more than one intelligence.Time comes into play in a number of ways,and there's a notable paradox in the middle. (Thanks, George)

We know that 4-5 hours elapse from the time Jon goes to sleep and the time he wakes up. Ghost leaves (paying Jon no mind) when Jon lies down.("When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves." is misleading. We don't dream as soon as we close our eyes) 

It would take Ghost some time to reach the vantage point from which he observes Mance's camp. Jon wakes suddenly at the end of that 4-5 hours, when he dreams/feels the attack on Ghost. Jon recounts his dream to the others, and Qhorin decides to move on. ... We aren't given a time estimate, but it doesn't seem like a very long time before they find Ghost - maybe about an hour, but certainly not 4 or 5, or even half that. If we're to take it at face value, Ghost (wounded) made it back a long way in a short period of time. (too short, IMO)

There are 2 probable time warps in this dream. One involves Bran's presence. Whether you think it's Bran reaching back in time or Bloodraven projecting what he knows is Bran's future, either way there's some manipulation... Then we come to the paradox.. Jon experiences the weirwood part of the dream first and through Ghost, since... He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs. ... This only makes sense to me if the weirwood sapling is real and Ghost sniffs it.This is followed soon after by...

And the tree reached down and touched him.
And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice.
 ... That's an entirely different location. Ghost can't be in two places at once ( and there are no jet packs or teleportation), but we know he really was attacked by the eagle. So this is a second time warp within the dream. If we are to reconcile the dream with what is happening in real time in the story, Ghost had to have seen Mance's camp first, then sniff the weirwood sapling on his way back (wounded), in order to be where Jon would find him This would answer some of my questions. here's my suggested order of events...

1. Ghost is guided to the precipice, takes in the view and is attacked.

2. Ghost gets away and begins to make his way back to Jon.

3. Near the weirwood sapling, wounded, needing (or allowed) to rest, he sits and tries to reach out for his packmates. This is where Jon's dream begins...

4. Jon has not warged properly at this point and still won't afterwards. He simply doesn't sense Ghost's wound, or it's being masked by _? ..."The tree" opens his third eye in the dream..

5. Jon sees what Ghost saw, and what Jon would have seen without assistance, if he was an experienced warg.. Jon isn't actually seeing through Ghost in real time, but seeing what Ghost and the ghost/shadow within him saw, perhaps a couple of hours previously. (This would explain the conspicuous lack of "wolf-speak" in the dream.)

6. Jon wakes, while Ghost continues on finding his way to the relatively safe spot between the two boulders.

Phew! I've finished.. Apologies to anyone to whom this is all old news.. ;).. So - I still think the dream stems from more than one source, but if it had to be from only one , I'd have to look to Bloodraven, the guy with 100 yrs (or more) experience.

 

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Still following this thread. So many wonderful essays and theories being put forth. 

I am a rather ill older woman (GRRM) age and my eye sight is not the best with my illness at the moment. I am also not pc skilled which means while I have ideas regarding the story line and the characters fates I am not really able to type them up correctly.  Hopefully, my health will improve I can get off the medication and I can figure out how to use this new format.  This is the main reason I read everything but seldom post. I just wanted to tell everyone who posts their thoughts, ideas here how much enjoyment they bring to me

After reading the newer essays written, I am so pleased because I have suspected for awhile that another entity is in Ghost beside perhaps BR, and Jon.  I have long wondered if the clues Martin gave us regarding "motherhood" might not be a clue to who is also residing in Ghost at times.

Lyanna Stark might have in some way  imparted enough of herself to Jon  (Nissa Nissa idea of the mother's character and traits in the " sword"  ie child.)  Is it possible that in some way a part of Lyanna is also influencing Ghost? 

I was contemplating the UNCAT mother figure we have. She is not at rest because her children are not safe. 

Is there perhaps a subtle theme with mothers?  It would be crackpot I know if some spirit of Jon's mother is inside Ghost, but I think perhaps there are some subtle clues in the story that could lend to that theory.  Perhaps some of you fine folks can think on this idea or debunk it..Either would be fine.  I am always struck by the fact that when Bran is in the coma and he is coming out of his coma..the end of his dream ( vision) involves him seeing a woman..(mother figure).  This could be a very very subtle clue that GRRM slipped in right in AGOT to alert us that there is a woman hidden behind the direwolf (Ghost)

The theme of mothers as ghosts in the mists in GRRM prose writing

Spoiler below regarding a DUNK and EGG story!

Also in one of the Dunk and Egg stories we have BR glammored in a Maynard Plumm? .

Later in AFFC We also have this weird story about  a dead Plumm fathering a child. 

Thers is no doubt that BR was using a Plumm knight to glamour himslef in the Dunk/EGG story..If it was a dead Plum body then we have our answer regarding Br's power. 

Also the idea of one eared, one eyed animals being used by BR. YES!

I have long believed this to be true.  What I do wonder about is whether one eared, or one eyed people are also being used in a sense by BR.  Something about Dwyen the guy with the wooden clanking teeth who holed up in a tree on the ranging and I think is missing an ear?  

Anyways, my poor thoughts regarding so much fine material presented here.  Please excuse mistakes, my eyesight is not good..

Evita's essay on the communion and Father, Son, and Holy Ghost makes alot of sense.  But I wonder if Mother Mary...ie Lyanna is also somehow alive in Ghost.

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On 12/19/2015 at 0:47 PM, LongRider said:

But there is an example of a request for the hearing of sins and forgiveness in the books; on the Quiet Isle, the Elder Brother asks Septon Meribald to hear confessions of the brothers and novices.  Both the EB and SM are keepers of the faith of the Seven.  Just wanted to mention that this motif has been introduced to the story.  :)

edt; also in the same chapter, not being able to forgive someone is there too, as the EB tells SM that he can't forgive Ser Quincy Cox of his sin of not protecting the smallfok during the Saltpans raid. 

Last note, when the EB asks to have the confessions heard, he asks SM to 'absolve' them of their sins, but later speaks of being unable to forgive Ser Cox.   Checking around I see that absolve =/= forgiveness.  Perhaps Bran absolved Theon of some of his sins, but is unable to forgive him?

 

LONGRIDER: :bowdown: GREAT OBSERVATIONS.  Once again, I am bringing earlier posts FORWARD so that we can further discuss them:  Good analyses need to be read and reread, methinks.:wub:

You have pointed out an excellent example of confession and absolution/or absolution withheld using Elder Brother as the Father Confessor.

·       One of my latest writing projects is to trace elements of the Catholic Mass and the Sacraments throughout the novels of Martin’s ASoI&F.  Since Martin once practiced Catholicism, his works might reflect his experiences attending church and participating in the sacraments before he decided to no longer follow the faith.

·       I am sharing several items that you may find interesting, and since you have such a good handle on the terminology and etymology of words, your contributions are appreciated and highly anticipated.

·       I found explanations online that may assist in our understanding of the sacrament of Confession, Reconciliation, and Penance.  After looking at them, perhaps we may have a clearer understanding of what happens with Theon and his communications with Bran through Winterfell’s heart tree.

·       I quoted from two online sources, attributing the authors with web addresses.

How to Make a Good Confession

Make an examination of conscience

1.] Begin with a prayer asking for God’s help. 2.] Review your life with the of 10 Commandments in mind. (see below). 3.] Tell God how truly sorry you are for your sins. 4.] Make a firm resolution not to sin again. [http://diopitt.org/short-guide-confession-sacrament-reconciliation-0 ].

Following is a list of the Ten Commandments, according to the Catholic Faith:

1.     I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

2.     You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain

3.     Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day

4.     Honor your father and your mother

5.     You shall not kill

6.     You shall not commit adultery

7.     You shall not steal

8.     You shall not bear false witness

9.     You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

10.    You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

http://www.catholicbible101.com/thetencommandments.htm

The Rite of the Sacrament of Reconciliation 

Reconciliation may be face-to-face or anonymous, with a screen between you and the priest. Choose the option that is the most comfortable for you.

1.    The priest gives you a blessing or greeting. He may share a brief Scripture passage.

2.    Make the Sign of the Cross and say: “Bless me father, for I have sinned. My last confession was…” (give the number of weeks, months or years).

3.    Confess all of your sins to the priest. The priest will help you to make a good confession. . . Place your trust in God, a merciful Father who wants to forgive you.

4.    Following your confession of sins, say: “I am sorry for these and all of my sins.”

5.    The priest assigns you a penance and offers advice to help you be a better Catholic.

6.    Say an Act of Contrition, expressing your sorrow for your sins. The priest, acting in the person of Christ, then absolves you from your sins.

http://diopitt.org/short-guide-confession-sacrament-reconciliation-0 

Reconciliation

Theon does not have the benefit of a confessional; however, the atmosphere in the godswood has spiritual overtones.  Instead of a church with an altar alit with candles, the snow is falling, melting in a way that is reminiscent of candle wax.  Hence, “Tendrils of mist hung in the air like ghostly ribbons”.  From the flames of candles, tendrils of smoke create similar “ghostly ribbons”.

Additionally, instead of robed religious statues of the saints positioned about the altar, the heart tree is attended by “white-cloaked trees”.

Theon makes a “face-to-face” confession before the white tree with its knowing eyes.

The Father Confessor Bran/The Priest Hearing Confession

“The heart tree stood before him [Theon], a pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands”. 

·       Bran hears Theon’s words from behind the carved face in the tree.  This visage is similar to the barricade in confessionals that conceal the identity of the penitent and the priest.

“Theon sank to his knees . . .”

·       Kneeling is the position a penitent assumes during his confession, either at the altar, face-to-face with the priest, or within the confessional, with an opaque screen that conceals the faces of the priest and the sinner but permits the passage of sound.  Some confessionals allow for the sinner to open the screen if he chooses to confess while face to face with the priest.

 ‘Please,’  he murmured through broken teeth, ‘I never meant . . .’  The words caught in his throat.

·       Theon’s sins are so grave that he cannot speak them – they catch in his throat.  Theon “never meant” what? 

·       Readers may guess the nature of Theon’s unspoken words.  Theon never meant to “take Winterfell”?  Betray the Starks?  Cause the sacking of Winterfell because he trusted the Bastard of Bolton?  Bring pain to Bran, Rickon, and the Stark family?

·       Even though Martin does not detail Theon’s regrets with dialogue or with  his thoughts, Bran the greenseer “reads” Theon’s mind telepathically. Perhaps Martin intentionally omits what Bran hears, in respect for Theon’s privacy:  sinners have a right to confess anonymously.   

 Save me,” he finally managed.  ‘Give me . . .’ What? Strength?  Courage?  Mercy?

·       Theon ASKS FOR SALVATION.  Now, does he wish to be saved from the guilt of his trespasses?  Or does Theon ask to be saved from his fate at the hands of Ramsay?

·       When Theon says “Give me . . .” Once again, he cannot give voice to the words that may allow him to attain forgiveness and salvation. 

·       However, Bran knows Theon’s thoughts, and Bran does grant Theon STRENGTH, COURAGE, and MERCY, all evidenced in Theon’s POVs that follow.

Theon hears a faint sobbing, and he assumes it is Jeyne Poole crying in her bridal bed.  Who else could it be?  Gods do not cry.  Or do they?”

·       Gods do cry.  In the Cave of Skulls, Bran cries when he cannot reach his father, and Bran even wonders if when he cries, does the tree cry?  Theon hearing Bran’s sobbing is answer to Bran’s question.

·       Bran’s weeping for the broken Theon is evidence of Bran’s gift of empathy.

“The sound was too painful to endure”. 

·       The sound of the gods weeping is too painful for Theon, which is ironic considering the horrors Ramsay has visited upon him.  Additionally, this painful sound harkens to the voices of those who sing the song of earth, and Bran’s reaction to their songs during his residency as greenseer-in-training.

 

In ADwD, Bran’s POV, he finally sees and hears a child, or singer:

“That was not Arya’s voice, nor any child’s. It was a woman’s voice, high and sweet, with a strange music in it like none that he had ever heard and a sadness that he thought might break his heart”.

Sometimes the sound of song would drift up from some place far below.  The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves in the True Tongue that no human man can speak.  The ravens could speak it, though.  Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck at his skin when they hear the songs” (448).

·        Bran is not alone in being moved by the song of earth.

·        The song of earth have an effect on the ravens when they hear the singers.  They “caw” as if trying to join their voices with the singers.  They also peck at Bran’s skin, which suggests their nervous excitement.

·        The ravens may want Bran to join in the song as well.

·       Martin endows Bran with a sensitivity to feel what he hears: Bran has a physical reaction to the “high and sweet” voices that intone “sadness” that “might break his heart”. 

“Theon grabbed hold of a branch and pulled himself back to his feet . . . and limped back toward the light” [542].

·       Metaphorically, Theon’s sins weigh heavily on his soul, so much so that they affect him physically, literally.  He needs to brace himself using a branch, grabbing hold of it in order to pull himself to his feet.  His posture likewise reflects the burden he carries.  He cannot stand up straight, and he walks with a limp.

·       Theon’s posture mirrors that of Christ’s as he carries the burden of the cross on his back.

·       Yet Theon DOES MOVE TOWARD THE LIGHT:  That he is progressing toward accountability and responsibility for his actions is demonstrated by him limping toward the light, a symbol for enlightenment, realization, and truth.

Additional Observations

·       If Bran hears Theon’s words and perceives Theon’s thoughts telepathically, then Bran knows about Ramsay’s duplicity; that is, Ramsay manipulates Theon by pretending to be the repulsive Reek.  Ramsay wins Theon’s trust in order to betray him.

·       Bran may know that Theon was uninformed and unsuspecting, completely vulnerable to Ramsay’s strategic ploys.

·        Ramsay murders his manservant Reek, exchanges his own clothing for Reek’s, and then masquerades undetected as Reek so that the northerners believe that Ramsay is dead. 

·       In reality, Reek is the corpse wearing Ramsay’s clothing.

·       What is Theon’s penance for his sins?  Theon pays dearly at the hands of Ramsay, and Bran is likely aware of the abuses Theon has suffered mentally and physically. 

·       Mayhap Theon’s penance includes obeying Abel’s commands to execute the rescue of Jeyne Poole and to facilitate the efforts of the spearwives in any manner that he can.

Now, Longrider, PLEASE SHARE YOUR SAGAEOUS and SCHOLARLY INSIGHTS!:D

EVERYONE ELSE IS WELCOME TO RESPOND.:grouphug:  Wizz and Ravenous Reader posted  EXCELLENT AND INSIGHTFUL comments focusing on their knowledge/experiences with Catolicism.

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On 12/21/2015 at 8:35 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi Evita!  I adore the Wizz-bang-Evita-style!  :D  That sounds perfect.  Thank you again for some of what you’re sharing here, there is so much, I'm loving it.  I particularly like the point about the words being delivered musically in the cave, that is awesome!

And I agree with your idea of Bran’s three chapters first, then on to the others, and here’s a rough shot at the first passage you posted above.

 ‘Swaying in his wicker basket’ sounds like more bird terminology, building the bird motif around Bran.  I’m unsure if it’s Bran that is swaying, or the wicker basket, however birds kept as pets [Parrots, budgies etc…] often sway in their cages.  Maybe nothing but thought worth mentioning anyway.

Hodor was temporarily one eyed and this just after the Three eyed crow was mentioned in Bran’s thoughts.  Interesting.  The one eye thing always has me wondering, especially as Hodor has been skinchanged before, again this may be nothing, nut noted.

Some more detail about the sword from the crypts.  Not just taken for safety as logic may suggest, but referenced in the text again.  Hmmm….  With all you've noted on those swords, worth keeping an eye on text around the this as well maybe?

Bran was thinking to himself a lot in this passage, not sure of any significance but again something I noticed.  Hope this is ok Evita, I look forward to posting with you and trying to break down these wonderful books, and this exciting line of enquiry.  :) 

 

WIZZ-THE-SMITH: :love: If I had the pleasure of teaching you in my Honors Writing class, you would earn an A++++++++.  You are a quick study, and since I am going backwards and bringing good essays to the front, I can delight in the progress you are making not only in your observations, but in your writing as well.:wub:

Now, before embarking on your longer essay from AGoT’s  “Prologue”, I am sharing information on the eye symbology in literature.

My favorite source is the University of Michigan’s “Symbology Project”, wherein student authors explain meanings behind the most popular symbols in literature.  I like this source because the writers condense material, hitting the theories that are the most accepted among scholarly writers.  Of course, you may wish to research other sources for more detailed explanations.

Eye Symbology

“Eyes are probably the most important symbolic sensory organ. They can represent clairvoyance, omniscience, and/or a gateway into the soul.

“Other qualities that eyes are commonly associated with are intelligence, light, vigilance, moral conscience, and truth.

“Looking someone in the eye is a western custom of honesty.

“In this way covering of the eyes, by wearing a helmet, sunglasses, etc. can mean mystery, not seeing the complete truth, or deceit.

“However, in other cultural contexts, the obscuring of the eyes can convey respect (Asian) or modesty and submission (many middle eastern women wear VEILS for this purpose).

“The eye often means judgment and authority.

“Jung considers its original symbol as the eternal bosom with the pupil its 'child.' It is the place where love begins (ending at the mouth).

Different colors of the eyes carry different meanings:

“blue - a sign of being in love, innocence;

“green - jealousy, a sign of distrust, rarity;

 red - demonic, weeping, fury.

Different numbers of eyes have different meanings as well:

one - subhuman, divine omniscience, superhuman (usually negative);

“two - normality, both physically and spiritually;

“three - superhuman powers, can be either benevolent or malevolent;

“multiple - stars and darkness”.

http://www.umich.edu/~umfandsf/symbolismproject/symbolism.html/E/eyes.html

Your mention of Hodor being temporarily blinded in one eye is an excellent catch, but I am not sure where you were going with it?  Martin has a habit of metaphorically and literally blinding his characters for a purpose, and the blindness motif is one of my favorites.  I have traced it through AGoT,  and it lead me to some possible conclusions.

However, I want you to explain your theory about Hodor’s impeded vision.  By introducing an element that prevents a character from seeing clearly, the author may be insinuating that the character’s perceptions are handicapped, distorted, or narrowed in scope.  Martin may wish to show that Hodor is unable to understand or process what happens to him when Bran slips into the gentle giant’s skin.  On the other hand, Bran is seemingly aware of Hodor’s fear when Bran enters him, yet Bran is symbolically blind to his own selfishness:  Martin says that when Bran “tires” of being a wolf, that’s when Bran takes Hodor’s skin.

Now, Bran obviously does not or cannot discern that another person is not a plaything for his personal amusement and entertainment.  He should not skinchange Hodor because he is bored.  Nevertheless, Bran IS a child.  His actions and his insensitivity indicate his immaturity.  What do you think Martin is telling the readers?

1]. As a greenseer, Bran will make childish decisions:  Bran may disregard or misjudge how his implementation of magic will affect others in the long-term.  This short-sightedness could evolve into a significant flaw unless Bran learns to discipline himself and not to act on his own whims.  Impetuosity buys a host of troubles.

2]. Bran needs a firm teacher.  Bloodraven must not indulge Bran.  It is a good thing that Bran fears the talking corpse.  Fear can be a motivating force.  Obviously, Bran does not fear Hodor because he continues to misuse the stableboy.  How will Bran learn to respect Hodor?  Bran has occasionally put his direwolf Summer at risk.  Summer being wounded does not curb Bran’s behavior.  What sort of lesson will teach Bran the value of life?  The fragility of life?  Must he lose Hodor or Summer in order to learn?

3]. How did you learn?  Is it best to fear a teacher?  Or is in best to be friends with the teacher?  What type of educator does Bran need?  Remember how well Bran listened to his mom, dad, and Luwin about climbing?  Then recall how the 3EC got Bran to “fly”.  Does there need to be a “balance” in all things, including Bran’s studies?  Should Bloodraven impose rules with conditions?  Or should disciplining Bran fall to Leaf?  They all listened to her – she told them not to explore the caves or go down by the river.  Men, they are the children.  Words are wind, indeed.

Regarding the “eye symbology”, I highlighted in yellow two points I felt dovetailed with your Hodor observations and with the faces in the weirwoods.

1].  Hodor’s eye frozen shut suggests: “not seeing the complete truth, or deceit”.  However, it is Bran who does not see the complete truth.

2].  The eyes carved in the heart tree:  “The eye often means judgment and authority.   At one time, the First Men and the Starks executed lawbreakers in front of the heart tree after the offender said his last words to the tree:  a man cannot lie in front of a heart tree because the old gods will know.  Later Starks moved the executions from the family property to holdfasts, but the man wielding the sword cleaned his blade beneath the heart tree.  So, the distribution of blood continued – if blood is/was needed to feed the greenseers within the weirwood   {Just a theory].

YOUR TURN, MY DEAR!  Keep up the AWESOME WORK!:D

 

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On 4/8/2016 at 7:06 PM, Lady Arya's Song said:

Still following this thread. So many wonderful essays and theories being put forth. 

I am a rather ill older woman (GRRM) age and my eye sight is not the best with my illness at the moment. I am also not pc skilled which means while I have ideas regarding the story line and the characters fates I am not really able to type them up correctly.  Hopefully, my health will improve I can get off the medication and I can figure out how to use this new format.  This is the main reason I read everything but seldom post. I just wanted to tell everyone who posts their thoughts, ideas here how much enjoyment they bring to me

After reading the newer essays written, I am so pleased because I have suspected for awhile that another entity is in Ghost beside perhaps BR, and Jon.  I have long wondered if the clues Martin gave us regarding "motherhood" might not be a clue to who is also residing in Ghost at times.

Lyanna Stark might have in some way  imparted enough of herself to Jon  (Nissa Nissa idea of the mother's character and traits in the " sword"  ie child.)  Is it possible that in some way a part of Lyanna is also influencing Ghost? 

I was contemplating the UNCAT mother figure we have. She is not at rest because her children are not safe. 

Is there perhaps a subtle theme with mothers?  It would be crackpot I know if some spirit of Jon's mother is inside Ghost, but I think perhaps there are some subtle clues in the story that could lend to that theory.  Perhaps some of you fine folks can think on this idea or debunk it..Either would be fine.  I am always struck by the fact that when Bran is in the coma and he is coming out of his coma..the end of his dream ( vision) involves him seeing a woman..(mother figure).  This could be a very very subtle clue that GRRM slipped in right in AGOT to alert us that there is a woman hidden behind the direwolf (Ghost)

The theme of mothers as ghosts in the mists in GRRM prose writing

Spoiler below regarding a DUNK and EGG story!

Also in one of the Dunk and Egg stories we have BR glammored in a Maynard Plumm? .

Later in AFFC We also have this weird story about  a dead Plumm fathering a child. 

Thers is no doubt that BR was using a Plumm knight to glamour himslef in the Dunk/EGG story..If it was a dead Plum body then we have our answer regarding Br's power. 

Also the idea of one eared, one eyed animals being used by BR. YES!

I have long believed this to be true.  What I do wonder about is whether one eared, or one eyed people are also being used in a sense by BR.  Something about Dwyen the guy with the wooden clanking teeth who holed up in a tree on the ranging and I think is missing an ear?  

Anyways, my poor thoughts regarding so much fine material presented here.  Please excuse mistakes, my eyesight is not good..

Evita's essay on the communion and Father, Son, and Holy Ghost makes alot of sense.  But I wonder if Mother Mary...ie Lyanna is also somehow alive in Ghost.

My dear Arya's Song - your ideas are wonderful. :love: I read one Dunk and Egg story - and I have forgotten it.  So, you already know much more than I. Actually, I love Bran and Arya and Jon Snow - so I focus mainly on my favorites in writing analysis.  I have deconstructed and annotated almost every chapter in AGoT - and the POV chapters of my favorites in all the other novels.

I am sorry to hear that you are ill.  I also have an illness that requires medications, and I certainly understand how difficult dealing with such things can be.  Do you know how to check your mail on the Forum?  I sent you a message.  In the upper right hand corner is an envelope icon.  If you click on that, you will open your mail.  I sent you a message, and I was afraid that you did not get it.  I will try sending you another.  Sending mail on the Forum is also a nice way to get to know nice people, especially those who have been posting here.

You may also notice that I always use a larger font than others.  That is because my eyes are not the greatest either.  I have to wear reading glasses, and they do help, but the glare from the computer screen can tire my eyes, especially when I do a lot of writing and reading online.  I own Martin's books - not the Kindles - I still love the feel of a book in my hands.  I own several copies of the same novels because I annotate the chapters using highlighters, tabs, post its, pins, write able tape, etc.  I will make sure to enlarge my type face to make it easier for you - and me - to read.

My hands and wrists ache - so typing takes me a long time.  I type out all the passages I cite by hand, so that takes quite a while as well.  I have splints to wear, but when I have them on, I cannot type.  I muddle through some how - and sometimes I have to take a few days off to catch up.

I certainly understand how illnesses can take a toll on a person's energy and feelings of well-being.

I really like your contemplation of a mother theme as part of the Catholic  Mass and Sacraments motif - as we are planning to develop the theme further here, we certainly need to consider how Mary fits into the discussion.  We welcome your ideas.  You have some excellent points - Cat not being able to rest until she knows her remaining children are safe is a great interpretation.

With the HBO show slated to premiere soon, we will see how Bran's growing powers are portrayed in the series.  I wonder if we will be able to discuss the episodes and compare them to the novels on this thread.  I do not know if the Forum allows that.  I will have to read the rules.

I wrote more, but I keep losing it.  I am going to submit this now before it disappears for good.

I hope to hear from you soon.

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On ‎09‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 5:26 PM, evita mgfs said:

WIZZ-THE-SMITH: :love: If I had the pleasure of teaching you in my Honors Writing class, you would earn an A++++++++.  You are a quick study, and since I am going backwards and bringing good essays to the front, I can delight in the progress you are making not only in your observations, but in your writing as well.:wub:

 

Now, before embarking on your longer essay from AGoT’s  “Prologue”, I am sharing information on the eye symbology in literature.

 

My favorite source is the University of Michigan’s “Symbology Project”, wherein student authors explain meanings behind the most popular symbols in literature.  I like this source because the writers condense material, hitting the theories that are the most accepted among scholarly writers.  Of course, you may wish to research other sources for more detailed explanation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~snip~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

Hi Evita!  :wub:  Thank you for your kind words, it's nice to know there has been progress.  That's why I went searching to find posters such as you that post such detailed analysis, so awesome. 

Also the eye symbolism stuff is great, and that is a useful website thanks for the link.  The number of eyes certainly run true throughout this series and the colours are interesting.  There was a poster named Shadrich on another forum who had a theory about the golden eyes in the books, claiming those who had them have telepathic/magic abilities.  I shall have to find it.

Now, my post about Hodor and his one eye being frozen shut, I wish I was citing some cool symbolism that I had spotted, but unfortunately not.  :blush:  On my search for clues to find BR in the text there are a few key words/phrases that I look for, then study the text around it.  One of things is to study any mention of one eye, looking for BR. 

So I was 'very speculatively' suggesting that Hodor having already been skinchanged and weak of mind could perhaps be a vassal for BR to pop in and out at will, and whether or not Hodor having one eye at that particular moment in time was our clue to BR's presence in that scene.  But as I said, it is highly speculative and wouldn't Bran sense someone else's presence etc........... I'm not sure I believe it myself, I was throwing it out there in a slower time on the thread.  :P 

To give that some context, I see BR/old gods all around Bran on his journey north of the wall with Coldhands.  Howling north winds, all the ravens, the trees seeming to protect him [stand in battle formation/cover him in snow]  So I see it as a kind of chaperone of sorts, the various things mentioned popping up regularly throughout those chapters almost like they never really left his side, all very subtle.  

But hey, look, we got a really cool eye symbolism post out of it, good work again Evita!  And I agree with your little theory at the bottom regards the blood and the weirwoods as well.  :D  

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On 4/8/2016 at 7:06 PM, Lady Arya's Song said:
1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi Evita!  :wub:  Thank you for your kind words, it's nice to know there has been progress.  That's why I went searching to find posters such as you that post such detailed analysis, so awesome. 

Also the eye symbolism stuff is great, and that is a useful website thanks for the link.  The number of eyes certainly run true throughout this series and the colours are interesting.  There was a poster named Shadrich on another forum who had a theory about the golden eyes in the books, claiming those who had them have telepathic/magic abilities.  I shall have to find it.

Now, my post about Hodor and his one eye being frozen shut, I wish I was citing some cool symbolism that I had spotted, but unfortunately not.  :blush:  On my search for clues to find BR in the text there are a few key words/phrases that I look for, then study the text around it.  One of things is to study any mention of one eye, looking for BR. 

So I was 'very speculatively' suggesting that Hodor having already been skinchanged and weak of mind could perhaps be a vassal for BR to pop in and out at will, and whether or not Hodor having one eye at that particular moment in time was our clue to BR's presence in that scene.  But as I said, it is highly speculative and wouldn't Bran sense someone else's presence etc........... I'm not sure I believe it myself, I was throwing it out there in a slower time on the thread.  :P 

To give that some context, I see BR/old gods all around Bran on his journey north of the wall with Coldhands.  Howling north winds, all the ravens, the trees seeming to protect him [stand in battle formation/cover him in snow]  So I see it as a kind of chaperone of sorts, the various things mentioned popping up regularly throughout those chapters almost like they never really left his side, all very subtle.  

But hey, look, we got a really cool eye symbolism post out of it, good work again Evita!  And I agree with your little theory at the bottom regards the blood and the weirwoods as well.  :D  

 

Hey, Wizz, my sun and stars! :love: I wish you would still speculate on my questions about what teaching methodology will be the most effective to engage our precocious, inquisitive greenseer Bran.

We have observed that fear and terror work with Theon who becomes Reek.  However, Arya is unfazed by threats – she knuckles down and determines ways to best her opposition.  Yet there is part of her that wants to please the kindly man – she seeks his approval while at the same time, she looks for ways to execute her own agenda.  Then she employs what she has learned to do so.

Jon Snow endeavors to win Ned’s approval.

What about Bran?  He wanted Jojen to teach him while secretly resenting him at times.  With BR, Bran fears the talking corpse, and he prefers the darkness so that he does not have to see his wizard:  only hear him.

Awaiting your ALWAYS insightful reply.:D

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RE: the Catholic Mass.  At one time, and I remember this as a young girl from church, the entire Mass was spoken in Latin.  I had learned all the refrains and prayers in a language that I did not know or understand.  Eventually, the priests and the prayer books underwent a change, and the Mass was converted to English so that parishioners could understand better the meaning behind the Mass.

This language issue reminds me of the CotF who speak in the Old Tongue.

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Evita

I wish there was a like button regarding your mention of the Mass in Latin and the language issue of the CofF speaking in Old Tongue.  Good find! 

Whizz comment about Hodor and his one eye frozen shut, I hope so much that she is correct in her idea that he is being used by BR to help get Bran to the Cave.   I worry about this because while he has one eye frozen shut, he also has a hint that is not so good for his long term living.  Please forgive how gross this sounds but GRRM sometimes does the gross.

Snot characters..is it a death clue?

It also mentions that he has frozen snot on his face and beard.  How awful is this?

Well ..I have personally looked up every character in the series that has some type of mucus coming from the nose. It is the same as chewing sour leaf...a real death decree I fear, so I went hunting to make sure our Bran, Arya, Jon, Sansa did not have any mucus..lol 

Sweet Robin is not yet dead, but he is called a snot nosed wretch by Tyrion.

Chiswyck  The men all roared, none louder than Chiswyck himself, who laughed so hard at his own story that snot dribbled from his nose down into his scraggy grey beard. Arya stood in the shadows of the stairwell and watched him

 

Rorge began to laugh. He laughed so hard that snot flew out the hole where his nose had been

 

Lark the Sisterman   . "The Lord Commander wouldn't like that." There was ice under the big man's squashed pug nose, where his snot had frozen. A huge hand in a thick fur glove clenched tight around the shaft of a spear

 

Samwell Tarly but maybe the scarf is a protection.

He had wrapped his scarf over his nose and mouth, but it was covered with snot now, and so stiff he feared it must be frozen to his face

Sallador

"And Sallor picked his nose as if his snot was gold." He stood with his hands crossed at the wrists, his palms resting on the pommels of his blades; a curving Dothraki arakh on his left hip, a Myrish stiletto on his right.  ( Possible foreshadow)

Tyrion's trial.  Shae speaking the people's reaction.

. "It's true," Shae protested. "My giant of Lannister." The laughter swelled twice as loud. Their mouths were twisted in merriment, their bellies shook. Some laughed so hard that snot flew from their nostrils.

I'll be sure to read it," Jon Snow replied.

A line of pale snot ran from Maester Aemon's nose. He wiped it away with the back of his glove. "Knowledge is a weapon, Jon

 

I am sorry my longest post this far has to do with mucus from the nose..lol

All my favorite characters so far have kept their nose's clean, even if a lank of hair has fallen over one eye. :)

 

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41 minutes ago, Lady Arya's Song said:

Evita

I wish there was a like button regarding your mention of the Mass in Latin and the language issue of the CofF speaking in Old Tongue.  Good find! 

Whizz comment about Hodor and his one eye frozen shut, I hope so much that she is correct in her idea that he is being used by BR to help get Bran to the Cave.   I worry about this because while he has one eye frozen shut, he also has a hint that is not so good for his long term living.  Please forgive how gross this sounds but GRRM sometimes does the gross.

Snot characters..is it a death clue?

It also mentions that he has frozen snot on his face and beard.  How awful is this?

Well ..I have personally looked up every character in the series that has some type of mucus coming from the nose. It is the same as chewing sour leaf...a real death decree I fear, so I went hunting to make sure our Bran, Arya, Jon, Sansa did not have any mucus..lol 

Sweet Robin is not yet dead, but he is called a snot nosed wretch by Tyrion.

Chiswyck  The men all roared, none louder than Chiswyck himself, who laughed so hard at his own story that snot dribbled from his nose down into his scraggy grey beard. Arya stood in the shadows of the stairwell and watched him

 

Rorge began to laugh. He laughed so hard that snot flew out the hole where his nose had been

 

Lark the Sisterman   . "The Lord Commander wouldn't like that." There was ice under the big man's squashed pug nose, where his snot had frozen. A huge hand in a thick fur glove clenched tight around the shaft of a spear

 

Samwell Tarly but maybe the scarf is a protection.

He had wrapped his scarf over his nose and mouth, but it was covered with snot now, and so stiff he feared it must be frozen to his face

Sallador

"And Sallor picked his nose as if his snot was gold." He stood with his hands crossed at the wrists, his palms resting on the pommels of his blades; a curving Dothraki arakh on his left hip, a Myrish stiletto on his right.  ( Possible foreshadow)

Tyrion's trial.  Shae speaking the people's reaction.

. "It's true," Shae protested. "My giant of Lannister." The laughter swelled twice as loud. Their mouths were twisted in merriment, their bellies shook. Some laughed so hard that snot flew from their nostrils.

 

 

I'll be sure to read it," Jon Snow replied.

 

A line of pale snot ran from Maester Aemon's nose. He wiped it away with the back of his glove. "Knowledge is a weapon, Jon

 

I am sorry my longest post this far has to do with mucus from the nose..lol

All my favorite characters so far have kept their nose's clean, even if a lank of hair has fallen over one eye. :)

 

I LOVE THIS! :love: Now, it will take me a bit to reply in kind, and you know I will.  I have traced some things I will share - like the bloody mouths - all the Starks taste blood in AGoT, either their own or anothers.

I have traced hands, doors/windows/gates, food, faces, mists and fog, water imagery, Shakespeare, colors, numbers, animals [lions, wolves, birds, snakes, wasps,horses, bears, and more], blood, Gatsby, Golding, Christ figures, and more.  Now I am working on Christ figures.

Just wait - I will find something on NOSES!

It is important as one of the five senses - olfactory - I have written about he smells - let me check my files and I will be back with something either STINKY or FRAGRANT!:D

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1 hour ago, Lady Arya's Song said:

Evita

I wish there was a like button regarding your mention of the Mass in Latin and the language issue of the CofF speaking in Old Tongue.  Good find! 

Whizz comment about Hodor and his one eye frozen shut, I hope so much that she is correct in her idea that he is being used by BR to help get Bran to the Cave.   I worry about this because while he has one eye frozen shut, he also has a hint that is not so good for his long term living.  Please forgive how gross this sounds but GRRM sometimes does the gross.

Snot characters..is it a death clue?

It also mentions that he has frozen snot on his face and beard.  How awful is this?

Well ..I have personally looked up every character in the series that has some type of mucus coming from the nose. It is the same as chewing sour leaf...a real death decree I fear, so I went hunting to make sure our Bran, Arya, Jon, Sansa did not have any mucus..lol 

Sweet Robin is not yet dead, but he is called a snot nosed wretch by Tyrion.

Chiswyck  The men all roared, none louder than Chiswyck himself, who laughed so hard at his own story that snot dribbled from his nose down into his scraggy grey beard. Arya stood in the shadows of the stairwell and watched him

 

Rorge began to laugh. He laughed so hard that snot flew out the hole where his nose had been

 

Lark the Sisterman   . "The Lord Commander wouldn't like that." There was ice under the big man's squashed pug nose, where his snot had frozen. A huge hand in a thick fur glove clenched tight around the shaft of a spear

 

Samwell Tarly but maybe the scarf is a protection.

He had wrapped his scarf over his nose and mouth, but it was covered with snot now, and so stiff he feared it must be frozen to his face

Sallador

"And Sallor picked his nose as if his snot was gold." He stood with his hands crossed at the wrists, his palms resting on the pommels of his blades; a curving Dothraki arakh on his left hip, a Myrish stiletto on his right.  ( Possible foreshadow)

Tyrion's trial.  Shae speaking the people's reaction.

. "It's true," Shae protested. "My giant of Lannister." The laughter swelled twice as loud. Their mouths were twisted in merriment, their bellies shook. Some laughed so hard that snot flew from their nostrils.

 

 

I'll be sure to read it," Jon Snow replied.

 

A line of pale snot ran from Maester Aemon's nose. He wiped it away with the back of his glove. "Knowledge is a weapon, Jon

 

I am sorry my longest post this far has to do with mucus from the nose..lol

All my favorite characters so far have kept their nose's clean, even if a lank of hair has fallen over one eye. :)

 

Well, my dear Arya’s Song, I found some great stuff to help us explore the noses – and you are spot on about it symbolizing ill health. :grouphug: See below the symbology of the nose from http://www.thesymbologist.org/body.html#Nose

Nose

Spiritual Intake

“Through your nose, you draw into the body the "breath of life".

Your nose is another part of your defense system. It can tell you when something is offensive, unhealthy and when something should be avoided literally and figuratively.

·       This fits your interpretation of “unhealthy”, but it can also mean “offensive”!

·       I think Sweet Robin’s snotty nose is a sign of ill-health, and his mother does not wipe his nose.  I wonder why?

·       I do get a feeling that he will not be long in Martin’s world.  I thought for sure he would tumble to his death when Sansa helps him down from the Eyrie.

·       Maester Aemon’s snotty nose may also fit in with the unhealthy aspect of the symbology.  However, he also sacrifices a great deal to join the Watch, so his snotty nose may align to that as well.  [See the Gatsby essay below].

“Since everything is a symbolic reflection of thought, detrimental thoughts often pass through this defense mechanism. This happens because of the use of "artificial aromas", which are really manmade.

Following are a few of my finds regarding Weese who boasts that his nose never lies – he can sniff out fear and secrets.  Yet his ugly dog smells nasty:

·       Weese has “an ugly spotted dog that smelled worse than anything” (ACoK 457).

·       Weese tells his crew, “My nose never lies. When I sniff you, all I want to smell is fear” (421).

·       “Weese frowned at her, as if he smelled her secret” (554).

On the other hand, Jaqen has a pleasant smell:


“The cellar was black pitch and she could not see his face, even inches away. She could smell him though, his skin smelled clean and soapy, and he has scented his hair” (464)

Jaqen comes to her in darkness so that she cannot see his face.  Once again, Martin reminds his readers that Arya has been “blind” before, albeit “symbolically” for she finds herself thrust in the darkness of the dungeons in AGoT.   Arya displays her resilience in commanding her attuned senses.  Without her eyes, Arya’s olfactory senses are alerted to Jaqen’s  pleasant soapy smell.

“Television is excellent at portraying misconceptions, in the guise of shows and commercials, as true and wonderful things to partake of. A great example is the advertising for certain restaurants. They portray the belief that if you eat their food, you will be happy, you will have a happy family life, or you will be successful. All the while, the fat content and salt in the products work against your health. In this way, television can circumvent the body's natural defense mechanism.

“Some questions you might want to ask yourself are:

"How often do I get a stuffy nose and when?"
"What is going on in my life?"
"What ideas or Concepts are blocking my ability to receive spiritual sustenance?"  


Andrew Nightingale, a high school teacher, writes an essay about the nose symbolism in The Great Gatsby that has lots and lots of good information, so I am sharing it here:

“The nose has achieved remarkable symbolic importance throughout history. It is probably the most recognisable facial feature and its absence is immediately noticeable. I am sure that F. Scott Fitzgerald did not intend for the nose to have a singular symbolic value but that reference to it has to be interpreted within the context of each mention.

“Tom Buchanan breaking Myrtle's nose has a dual symbolic value - firstly, it indicates his perception of Myrtle. She is nothing more than an object to him. Her sole purpose is to fulfill his lust and to stroke his ego. Her dream of sharing a life with him is shattered in this one moment of violence, for obviously, Myrtle realizes that Tom will never leave Daisy for her. This is the second aspect of the nose, in this instance, as symbol - it indicates that Tom feels for Daisy and this feeling for his wife is greater than what he feels for Myrtle. His violent reaction is, after all, provoked by Myrtle derisively and repeatedly shouting out Daisy's name. Tom finds this offensive and strikes her.

“The fact that the billboard featuring Dr. Eckleburg's face sans its nose is symbolic of the decay found in the Valley of Ashes. It is a grey, disheartening place where dreams come to die. Its only significance is that it provides passage from one very wealthy area to another. It is a featureless, drab, dusty area which reeks of broken dreams. Just as Dr. Eckleburg's face lacks its definitive character, so too does the Valley of Ashes lack character. It is a place that one just passes through and forgets once one has left.

“Meyer Wolfshiem's nose is symbolic of the rough and tumble life experienced by those who are career criminals. Their noses are misshapen and crooked. Criminals are commonly depicted like this and one is very wary or suspicious of such characters, even in real life. Meyer Wolfshiem's nose presents him as a shady character (which he is), one that should be avoided. It is a pity then that Jay Gatsby associated with him.

“References to the butler's nose could symbolize different things. Firstly, it paints a picture of the idle rich indulging in insignificant gossip. They are bored and need something to do, so they gossip. It is also an indication of Daisy's unwillingness to seriously discuss the problems in her marriage to Tom. She avoids the issue by bringing up this irrelevant topic. Furthermore, the fact that the butler has developed a "blue nose" by polishing huge quantities of silver may symbolize the sacrifices many made to achieve the American Dream. Unfortunately, most gave up and the closest they came was to touch and see the material wealth of others, the promise of achieving the dream, just as the butler did. 

Finally, one should also realize that the nose has always been perceived as that feature which provides character to a face. Many of our expressions are derived from references to the nose, since its prominent position on our faces makes it unmistakable and profoundly noticeable”. 

http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-significance-nose-great-gatsby-breaking-476573

·       Since poor Tyrion loses his nose, he lacks the character and the balance to his features that he once had.  Now his forehead juts out and is even more pronounced than it had been when he was blessed with a nose.

·       Additionally, with the loss of his nose, those dreams he had seemingly die:  he loses Shae, he never finds Tasha [yet], he kills  his father, he flees King’s Landing, and he despises his brother.

·       Rorge’s nose fits with Meyer Wolfsheim since Rorge is a shady person who later attempts to rape Brienne [was it Rorge or Biter?]

What great fun, Arya’s Song!  I found lots of stuff – and we can collaborate more on your other finds when you share them.:cheers:

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