evita mgfs

BRAN’S GROWING POWERS AFTER his FINAL POV in ADwD

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That so many ravens are in WF is suspicious on it's own. ..Theon assumes they're all Maester Luwin's ravens and tells us Roose has brought 3 maesters to take the birds in hand, but if they were just normal ravens, I think most of them would have simply flown off to their home destinations once the rookery was destroyed.They may be part of the same "unkindness of ravens" that we see with Coldhands and at the cave.

 

He wished Robb were with them now.  I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him.  I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow.  We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.    [ Bran III, ADWD.]

Edited by Wizz-The-Smith

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JON X
 
After searching for clues for Bran as the wind, I may have found some interesting possibilities in Bran III and Jon VII ?  I have tried to link them up thread and this is the chapter the wind appears again, with similar and familiar text.  So after two chapters of no wind at all, here's Jon X, and very early in the chapter.

'' All praise R'hllor, the Lord of Light.'' the wedding guests answered in a ragged chorus before a 'gust' of ice cold wind blew their words away. Jon Snow raised the hood of his cloak.
  The snowfall was light today, a thin scattering of flakes dancing in the air, but the wind was blowing from the east along the Wall, cold as the breath of the Ice dragon in the tales Old Nan used to tell.......... '' Only Ghost seemed not to feel the chill.'' 


Another gust of ice cold wind early in the chapter with more hood/cloak mentions.  And I liked the imagery that the wind 'blew' their words away, perhaps another physical description of the winds actions ?  Then the description of the wind as the Ice dragon again, and Old Nan, as in Jon VII.  Having possibly set this up in Jon VII, this is the very next appearance of the wind we get in Jon's chapters, so the descriptions are consistent.  Here's that passage from Jon VII.......

 

A sudden 'gust' of wind set Edd's 'cloak' to flapping noisily. '' Best go down, m'lord. This wind's like to 'push' us off the wall, and I never did learn the knack of flying.''   [ screams Bran ?  :dunno: ]
They rode the winch lift back to the ground. The wind was 'gusting' cold as the breath of the Ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy. The heavy cage was swaying. From time to time it scraped against the Wall, starting small crystalline showers of ice that sparkled in the sunlight as they fell, like shards of broken glass.  [ Jon VII.]

 

We see the 'windy' winch lift ride and the last sentence word for word repeated later as well.
 
Having maybe established a presence early in the chapter, and around the wedding, the next two quotes are interesting.  It seems the wind is not only there throughout the ceremony, but interested in Mel.
 
'' Alone we are born and alone we die, but as we walk through this black vale we draw strength from one another, and from you my lord.''
Her scarlet silks and satins swirled with every gust of wind.
''  Two come forth today to join their lives, so they may face this worlds darkness together.......''

 
Then the second appearance of the wind at the ceremony.....

'' Two went into the flames.''  A gust of wind lifted the red woman's scarlet skirts till she pressed them down again.
'' One emerges.''

 
There are two more mentions of the wind, but in Jon thoughts rather than an actual appearance......
 
[ On Mully.] He was muffled up in his best blacks, woollens so new that they had hardly had a chance to fade yet, but the wind had turned his cheeks as red as his hair.
 
And
 
[ On others present.]  Queen's men, King's men, and free folk alike, all anxious to get out of the wind and the cold. 
 
I think that the wind was maybe subtly presented to us as Bran through the 'blowing away the words', perhaps offering a physical presence again ?  Then we get the Ice dragon and Old Nan description used again to maybe strengthen any potential 'Stark' links.  And of course the actual start of all the repetitive use of these phrases.  With this a possibility, what does the wind do for the rest of the chapter ?
 
Having blown in around the wedding guests chanting, the next two appearances or gusts of the wind are also around the wedding, and has a particular interest in Mel.  The wind is actually there in these instances, leading to the description of 'gust' around the wind, the next two are Jon's thoughts therefore not present and in no need of such text.  However they do still serve to set the scene that it is indeed windy and cold.
 
Having looked at the chapters, there are three that have these clues or pattern,[ Jon VII, X + XI ] and they all seem to set up a presence early, with then a sprinkling of other mentions throughout the rest of the chapter, not always just the wind though.  Once the wedding has finished and everyone heads inside, we get the possibility of Bran in the screaming hinges when Jon enters the Ice cells.......

'' Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Wittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through.......
 
There are some thoughts on this quote up thread, so I won't go over the same stuff too much, plus I've nothing new to add at the moment.  Bemused had some good thoughts in his post.  The main thing I think to take from this, is that there was an earlier presence perhaps set up, that then leads to this Bran appearance. 
 
But regarding the wind, there's a pattern I think I'm seeing, that an early presence is established and then the Bran clues are scattered subtly around, a couple of 'gusts' here and there, and the hinges in this chapter.  The next chapter is the other way around.  Object/animal first, then wind, but still an early presence leading to cool windy/Bran/hingey/winch lifty type stuff going on. 
 
Next chapter we get some wind, and more clues.  But after that it is only mentioned in thoughts, no appearances.  But still some raven stuff, and some dream stuff,  so will post analysis on all Jon's chapters.  I hope this is a help to some, and think I'm seeing some evidence, but I really am no expert when it comes to such matters.  I would love to hear peoples thoughts.  Will post the next one soon.    ^_^

Edited by Wizz-The-Smith

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JON XI
 
Hello again, I quoted some stuff up thread, but will try to add some flow and context to the quotes in this chapter.  I think there may be a slightly different technique used, with options for BR and Bran presented early in the text, but through more traditional methods rather than the possibility of the wind.  Namely the 'one eyed garron' and the 'carved weirwood face pin'.
 
The chapter starts with Jon parlaying with Tormund.  Mormont's raven flies down to Jon from nowhere.

''Did you follow me as well ?'' Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him ''Snow'' it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

Val was dressed all in white...........a white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face.


Is the change of heart from shoo to stroke a subtle possibility of evita's Homeric notion ?  Then a bit later........
 
She still rode the grey garron that Mully had given her the day she left the wall, a shaggy, stunted thing blind in one eye.

Mormonts raven followed them as far as the gate, then flapped upward as the rest of them dismounted.

 

As mentioned up thread, such multiple skinchanging opportunities are rare in one scene.  Forgetting the wind for a moment, this is the first chance for an eagle eyed reader to link the possibility of Bran or BR [ or both ] being present in Jon's chapters in the garron or weirwood pin, along with Mormont's raven.  

 

With this in mind, Bran or BR could've been privy to a lot of info in this chapter, but as soon as these possibilities disappear, and the second half of the chapter starts, the wind suddenly appears, as if to take over........... 

The higher they went the stronger the wind. Fifty feet up the heavy cage began to sway with every 'gust'. From time to time it scraped against the wall, starting small crystalline showers of ice that sparkled in the sunlight as they fell. They rose above the tallest towers of the castle. At four hundred feet the wind had teeth, and tore at his black 'cloak' so it slapped noisily at the iron bars. At seven hundred feet it cut right through him. 'The wall is mine' Jon reminded himself as the winchmen were swinging in the cage, 'for two more days at least.'

 

We have seen the wind appear around Jon whilst taking the 'heavily swaying' winch lift before, in Jon VII, just after he and Edd first encounter the wind after Bran's last chapter.  We get the Ice dragon description in that instance, here we get the physicality again with the wind having teeth, and as for the bolded sentence, it is the second time we have this description regarding the lift ride, and it is word for word the same as the first example in Jon VII.  As this forum has taught me, any repetitive text around the same subject, should be looked at again.  Perhaps once a presence may've possibly been established, is when we get a couple more gusts/examples of the wind.................. 

 

A disagreement during the meeting

'' I would sooner have them dead in the ground'' said Yarwick ''If it please my lord.''

'' It does not please me'' Jon's voice was as cold as the wind snapping at their cloaks.


And at the end of the chapter when Jon contemplates alone.

And Jon thought ''Ice'' she said ''and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard on naked steel'' His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.

 

In conclusion :  This time we have a definite chance of Bran's presence early in the chapter with all the skinchanging opportunities, along with BR's presence.  There are some interesting things they were maybe privy too, and once the garron or weirwood pin were no longer available, the wind appears with all the similar descriptive text around it, winch lift, word for word sentences, more gusts and the physicality [teeth] etc.......

 

These are the last actual appearances of the wind in Jon's chapters, the remaining couple are just internal thoughts.  There is Jon's dream in the next chapter, and raven quotes, so will continue the analysis anyway.

 

Please comment, even if in disagreement, I think I'm seeing something but would welcome some feedback.      :)

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JON XI
 
Hello again, I quoted some stuff up thread, but will try to add some flow and context to the quotes in this chapter.  I think there may be a slightly different technique used, with options for BR and Bran presented early in the text, but through more traditional methods rather than the possibility of the wind.  Namely the 'one eyed garron' and the 'carved weirwood face pin'.
 
The chapter starts with Jon parlaying with Tormund.  Mormont's raven flies down to Jon from nowhere.

''Did you follow me as well ?'' Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him ''Snow'' it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

Val was dressed all in white...........a white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face.


Is the change of heart from shoo to stroke a subtle possibility of evita's Homeric notion ?  Then a bit later........
 
She still rode the grey garron that Mully had given her the day she left the wall, a shaggy, stunted thing blind in one eye.

Mormonts raven followed them as far as the gate, then flapped upward as the rest of them dismounted.

 

As mentioned up thread, such multiple skinchanging opportunities are rare in one scene.  Forgetting the wind for a moment, this is the first chance for an eagle eyed reader to link the possibility of Bran or BR [ or both ] being present in Jon's chapters in the garron or weirwood pin, along with Mormont's raven.  

 

With this in mind, Bran or BR could've been privy to a lot of info in this chapter, but as soon as these possibilities disappear, and the second half of the chapter starts, the wind suddenly appears, as if to take over........... 

The higher they went the stronger the wind. Fifty feet up the heavy cage began to sway with every 'gust'. From time to time it scraped against the wall, starting small crystalline showers of ice that sparkled in the sunlight as they fell. They rose above the tallest towers of the castle. At four hundred feet the wind had teeth, and tore at his black 'cloak' so it slapped noisily at the iron bars. At seven hundred feet it cut right through him. 'The wall is mine' Jon reminded himself as the winchmen were swinging in the cage, 'for two more days at least.'

 

We have seen the wind appear around Jon whilst taking the 'heavily swaying' winch lift before, in Jon VII, just after he and Edd first encounter the wind after Bran's last chapter.  We get the Ice dragon description in that instance, here we get the physicality again with the wind having teeth, and as for the bolded sentence, it is the second time we have this description regarding the lift ride, and it is word for word the same as the first example in Jon VII.  As this forum has taught me, any repetitive text around the same subject, should be looked at again.  Perhaps once a presence may've possibly been established, is when we get a couple more gusts/examples of the wind.................. 

 

A disagreement during the meeting

'' I would sooner have them dead in the ground'' said Yarwick ''If it please my lord.''

'' It does not please me'' Jon's voice was as cold as the wind snapping at their cloaks.


And at the end of the chapter when Jon contemplates alone.

And Jon thought ''Ice'' she said ''and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard on naked steel'' His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.

 

In conclusion :  This time we have a definite chance of Bran's presence early in the chapter with all the skinchanging opportunities, along with BR's presence.  There are some interesting things they were maybe privy too, and once the garron or weirwood pin were no longer available, the wind appears with all the similar descriptive text around it, winch lift, word for word sentences, more gusts and the physicality [teeth] etc.......

 

These are the last actual appearances of the wind in Jon's chapters, the remaining couple are just internal thoughts.  There is Jon's dream in the next chapter, and raven quotes, so will continue the analysis anyway.

 

Please comment, even if in disagreement, I think I'm seeing something but would welcome some feedback.      :)

 

I like what you've found here, with the pin, the raven and the wind, and the one eyed garron. I can see where Bran and BR may have had a presence there.  But could there be something else? 

 

I'm thinking about Val.  She's surrounded by all kinds of interesting imagery.  She's dressed in white on white snow field.  She's riding a grey horse, and grey horses are many times refereed to as white. She's joined by a white direwolf, she has blue eyes and is sometimes refereed to as a 'princess.'  

 

And weirwood face pin.  I can't recall anywhere else in the text where there is another example of jewelry based on the ww.  I'm glad you noticed it as it's just one line but not only is it important, but I feel Val will be as well. 

 

Ghost seems like Val and as she rides into view and is joined by the direwolf Jon thinks "They look as though they belong together."   So what is it with the wilding princess?  She's isolated from the others by Mel and Selyse, they seem threatened by her, can Mel feel her power?  Does much of Val's personal power come from BR? 

 

I don't think she's being warged, but where did the ww pin come from?  I don't think it's accidental that she wears it.  Val herself is a strong wilding woman, part of BR's weirnet somehow?  And if she perhaps is part of BR's weirnet, how would that affect and possibly influence Bran?

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I've always been a bit suspicious about that weirwood pin. Old Gods worshipers don't typically craft items out of weirwood; I imagine that would be an act of sacrilege to them. They like their weirwoods alive. The exception would be the three arrows we saw Brandon Snow fashion, but that was implied to be part of a special (perhaps magical?) assassination attempt.

 

When people of other religions use weirwood as a craft or building material, it is clearly meant to show dominance over or contempt toward the Old Gods religion - the High Septon's weirwood staff, the roof beams at Whitewalls.

 

The only time we see a heart tree face depicted as a symbol by an Old Gods believer is in the case of the KotLT, and that was part of an act of deception. Leaves me a bit suspicious of Val, as does the fact that we've seen Ghost "highjacked" before (by Mel).

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I've always been a bit suspicious about that weirwood pin. Old Gods worshipers don't typically craft items out of weirwood; I imagine that would be an act of sacrilege to them. They like their weirwoods alive. The exception would be the three arrows we saw Brandon Snow fashion, but that was implied to be part of a special (perhaps magical?) assassination attempt.

 

When people of other religions use weirwood as a craft or building material, it is clearly meant to show dominance over or contempt toward the Old Gods religion - the High Septon's weirwood staff, the roof beams at Whitewalls.

 

The only time we see a heart tree face depicted as a symbol by an Old Gods believer is in the case of the KotLT, and that was part of an act of deception. Leaves me a bit suspicious of Val, as does the fact that we've seen Ghost "highjacked" before (by Mel).

 

What about Morna's mask?

 

I'd agree that I can't see wildlings hacking up weirwoods just to make baubles, but things happen that would create "found" wood ..branches get broken in storms, etc. ..And I think both Morna's mask and Val's pin do have magical and/or religious significance - things intended to draw the powers of the old gods to them to assist in their undertakings, e.g., healings, or asking to be granted visions. This would put them in a similar category with the weirwood arrows.. If taken from a living tree, it would have been taken in extreme reverence - assuming I'm correct in seeing Val as some kind of seer/priestess. (We know Morna is a witch).

 

Bloodraven and Ygritte (!?) both had weirwood and horn bows.

 

And I'm not sure all those outside uses demonstrate dominance over or contempt for the old gods (though some might), but may rather be a symbol of legitimacy.. The High Septon's staff might be intended to show that the old gods support the new to those the new religion was trying to convert (just as Christianity appropriated Celtic holy springs or practices) ..and the weirwood throne in the Eyrie seems to have echoes of the  Lia Fáil or the Stone of Scone. The beams at Whitewalls could show contempt.. but may have been used in complete ignorance, or simple disregard of religious context, and chosen for the wood's indestructibility. (and I'm not sure the porridges and potions used to heal Mance didn't have some weirwood content .. just speculation)

 

I get a very different vibe from Val and Ghost that I did from Mel and Ghost. With Mel, there's definitely some weird manipulation going on, if we look at Ghost's behaviour. With Val, his behaviour seems much more natural.

 

Jon spontaneously thinking they look like they belong together counts for something IMO.

Edited by bemused

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I like what you've found here, with the pin, the raven and the wind, and the one eyed garron. I can see where Bran and BR may have had a presence there.  But could there be something else? 
 
I'm thinking about Val.  She's surrounded by all kinds of interesting imagery.  She's dressed in white on white snow field.  She's riding a grey horse, and grey horses are many times refereed to as white. She's joined by a white direwolf, she has blue eyes and is sometimes refereed to as a 'princess.'  
 
And weirwood face pin.  I can't recall anywhere else in the text where there is another example of jewelry based on the ww.  I'm glad you noticed it as it's just one line but not only is it important, but I feel Val will be as well. 
 
Ghost seems like Val and as she rides into view and is joined by the direwolf Jon thinks "They look as though they belong together."   So what is it with the wilding princess?  She's isolated from the others by Mel and Selyse, they seem threatened by her, can Mel feel her power?  Does much of Val's personal power come from BR? 
 
I don't think she's being warged, but where did the ww pin come from?  I don't think it's accidental that she wears it.  Val herself is a strong wilding woman, part of BR's weirnet somehow?  And if she perhaps is part of BR's weirnet, how would that affect and possibly influence Bran?

 
Thanks LongRider, the wind is one to watch for sure. 
 
I agree that there's a lot of old gods imagery around Val, and I definitely think we'll see more of her in winds.  Not only because I 'get that impression', which has been the case up till recently, but also a cool idea I saw on another thread.  The thread is called 'The Valkyrie of the FM' by Sweetsunray, it concentrates on Arya and the Faceless men, but could have some meaning to other characters as well, Val I feel is a good candidate.  It's an excellent theory and very well presented, and really you only have to read the first part and it may conjure up some cool thoughts around Val.  It's Norse mythology based, Odin [BR] and the Valkyrie's that served him, very cool read.  [ Because of this thread my thoughts on Val are new and I've not got much else at the moment, but worth a mention, it's a great read anyway.]

 

Here's a link

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAAahUKEwjdt9P9pMrHAhUD6xQKHR2ODbM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fasoiaf.westeros.org%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2F133891-the-valkyrie-of-the-fm-theory-about-the-first-and-the-first-reborn%2F&ei=HIzfVd25OoPWU52ctpgL&usg=AFQjCNG2tXDbH7Ys0tZratve2gXQeo4vvw

 

On some of your other thoughts, I'm not sure that Val is getting any power from BR or that 'she' is part of the weirnet, rather the other way around, the jewellery with eyes is a chance for BR to manipulate Val's position and fashion sense without her knowing anything about it, a thousand eyes and one, why not these eyes?  Pretty cool as well.

 

I didn't think much on where the pin came from.  It seems logical to me that the Free folk would make use of any broken ww branches around and that they would possibly make jewellery out of it, among other things of course.  And it fits nicely into this scene with all the skinchanging opportunities, there's really no stone left unturned, ww pin, one eyed garron, Mormont's raven and Ghost.  So I think it was there because it worked for George in this scene, a subtle change from the tree faces, and awesome at that.  It stuck out as I was looking for evidence of both being present. 

 

How this is influencing Bran is a tough one, obviously his thoughts are out of our reach, but I'd imagine it's all a bit of a shock.  If he is watching Jon, Arya, etc..... then he's seeing some worrying stuff happening to his family.  But also, I see it as a necessity, BR is not going to take him places he doesn't need to be, his lessons are not going to be irrelevant, and the only guy that knows more than BR is George.  The hour is late after all.  With all Bran is about to learn, I'd be surprised if we get many chapters in Winds, and if we do they may be training based with hints and links to other chapters, but I think the skinchanging, ww faces and the elements [wind/mist] is where we will 'see' Bran the most moving forward.  

 

Finally, I agree that Mel is one to watch regarding Val.  If BR is using Val as an instrument to influence or see, then maybe Mel can feel a power in Val ?  Definitely something to watch for.  You're right about the separation between Selsye and Mel etc.... but I reckon Val was reasonably comfortable with Wun Wun sleeping at the base of her tower.  Perhaps Ser Patrick was trying to steal her ala wilding tradition, as Jon had joked about earlier, when he came to his untimely demise ?    :P

Edited by Wizz-The-Smith

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I'd agree that I can't see wildlings hacking up weirwoods just to make baubles, but things happen that would create "found" wood ..branches get broken in storms, etc. ..And I think both Morna's mask and Val's pin do have magical and/or religious significance - things intended to draw the powers of the old gods to them to assist in their undertakings, e.g., healings, or asking to be granted visions. This would put them in a similar category with the weirwood arrows.. If taken from a living tree, it would have been taken in extreme reverence - assuming I'm correct in seeing Val as some kind of seer/priestess. 
 
I get a very different vibe from Val and Ghost that I did from Mel and Ghost. With Mel, there's definitely some weird manipulation going on, if we look at Ghost's behaviour. With Val, his behaviour seems much more natural.
 
Jon spontaneously thinking they look like they belong together counts for something IMO.

 

Hey bemused.  I like your take that the mask and pin have magical powers or religious significance, and are perhaps being used in a seer/priestess sense, we don't know a great deal about Val and this would be an awesome way to go.  And as mentioned in my last post, I totally agree that any ww items would be made from the shedding of the branches over time, and it would make sense that they may revere such a gift from the gods, but also that they would make use of any and all materials available to them in that harsh landscape.

 

And I agree there is a different vibe between Val and Ghost and Mel and Ghost, and that everything feels far more comfortable when the former are together as opposed to the latter.  They look like they belong together will count for something is definitely something I can get on board with, in fact I kind of expect to see Ghost with Val together at the Wall in Winds.  We will wait and see.   :dunno:

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Hey Evita, Wizz-the-Smith, bemused and all,

I have really enjoyed this thread! I have just started a re-read of the books for the first time and will be on full alert for fogs, breezes and wind.

One thing I'm beginning to suspect is that there might be more than one player in the greenseeing game using different pawns or mentoring successors.

Wizz, I just listened to a Preston Jacobs video on wolves and sweetrobin. I don't know how many of his conclusions I believe but I was very struck by his analysis of Robin as a more important player than I had suspected. Robin sits on that weirwood throne, has that falcon and wind imagery attached to him through his forebears, is having bad dreams of singing that seem more than memories, is insistent that they aren't just dreams, dreams of flying, and wants to make people fly.

Your quotes from when Jon is on top of the wall in particular of a personified wind with intention to push remind me very strongly of Sweetrobin's sentiments about making people 'fly'.

Thought I would mention that in case you haven't considered it because it might be another avenue to explore. If the Wall is a 'hinge' of magic, more than one person might be accessing it unknowingly or knowingly through the weirwoods.

On a different topic, remember when Varamyr's soul is let loose in his 'true death' at the end of the prologue and he flips from one potential host to another before settling on One Eye? He flips from a flock of ravens, to a direwolf, to an elk with children on its back, to One Eye. He has told us in the chapter that animals that have been skinchanged before are easiest to slip into and all of these animals HAVE likely been skinchanged before. So that kind of answered one mystery for me.

With the One Eyed wolf and the One Eyed garron, I did wonder if perhaps an animal that has been skinchanged habitually and for a long time might take on that 'Odin' mark, not necessarily betokening Bloodraven, but as a mark that it has been magicked, and its sight is only 'half' its own. Just throwing that out there.

Anyway, fantastic thread that's given me a lot to think about. Thanks guys!

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Hey Evita, Wizz-the-Smith, bemused and all,

I have really enjoyed this thread! I have just started a re-read of the books for the first time and will be on full alert for fogs, breezes and wind.

One thing I'm beginning to suspect is that there might be more than one player in the greenseeing game using different pawns or mentoring successors.

Wizz, I just listened to a Preston Jacobs video on wolves and sweetrobin. I don't know how many of his conclusions I believe but I was very struck by his analysis of Robin as a more important player than I had suspected. Robin sits on that weirwood throne, has that falcon and wind imagery attached to him through his forebears, is having bad dreams of singing that seem more than memories, is insistent that they aren't just dreams, dreams of flying, and wants to make people fly.

Your quotes from when Jon is on top of the wall in particular of a personified wind with intention to push remind me very strongly of Sweetrobin's sentiments about making people 'fly'.

Thought I would mention that in case you haven't considered it because it might be another avenue to explore. If the Wall is a 'hinge' of magic, more than one person might be accessing it unknowingly or knowingly through the weirwoods.

On a different topic, remember when Varamyr's soul is let loose in his 'true death' at the end of the prologue and he flips from one potential host to another before settling on One Eye? He flips from a flock of ravens, to a direwolf, to an elk with children on its back, to One Eye. He has told us in the chapter that animals that have been skinchanged before are easiest to slip into and all of these animals HAVE likely been skinchanged before. So that kind of answered one mystery for me.

With the One Eyed wolf and the One Eyed garron, I did wonder if perhaps an animal that has been skinchanged habitually and for a long time might take on that 'Odin' mark, not necessarily betokening Bloodraven, but as a mark that it has been magicked, and its sight is only 'half' its own. Just throwing that out there.

Anyway, fantastic thread that's given me a lot to think about. Thanks guys!

 

Lady, I agree with the bolded.  I too think SR has more of a part to play than simply being a victim of LF.  Personally, my gut feeling is he will be on to survive the series.  SR is like some children in the books and life; ill and sickly when a child but grows strong as an adult, so perhaps that's his path. 

 

Also have bolded about the elk and animals skin changed before.  Who was in the elk I wonder?  When warging the ravens Bran discovers traces of other skinchangers in them.  Bran and party ate the elk. Do these traces die when the animal dies, what if it's eaten as the elk was? 

 

Your comments about the Wall being a hinge of magic and accessing it through the weirwoods are pretty interesting!  

Edited by LongRider

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Hey bemused.  I like your take that the mask and pin have magical powers or religious significance, and are perhaps being used in a seer/priestess sense, we don't know a great deal about Val and this would be an awesome way to go.  And as mentioned in my last post, I totally agree that any ww items would be made from the shedding of the branches over time, and it would make sense that they may revere such a gift from the gods, but also that they would make use of any and all materials available to them in that harsh landscape.

 

And I agree there is a different vibe between Val and Ghost and Mel and Ghost, and that everything feels far more comfortable when the former are together as opposed to the latter.  They look like they belong together will count for something is definitely something I can get on board with, in fact I kind of expect to see Ghost with Val together at the Wall in Winds.  We will wait and see.   :dunno:

 

We know how Starks and other Northerners worship the Old Gods, but the wildings may have their own various ways and ww jewelry and fetish objects might be common with them, or perhaps just found among the few seer/priestesses?  Maybe that's why Mel doesn't like her, and if she doesn't like her, it's easy for Mel to convince Selyse not to like her either.

 

And yeah, Val and Ghost belonging together.  OK, crack pot time, it just came to me, if as some predict, Jon wargs into Ghost, it would be interesting if Val and Ghost went on a bit of a trip to BR's cave.    Told ya it was crackpot!    :p       

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Wizz-The-Smith, LongRider , Lady Barbrey..
 
There are some very good catches and interesting possibilities here.. I'll just call some of them up at random..  I had quite forgotten Bran's "We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.".. I love that.
 
I know we're all trying to be mindful that sometimes the wind is just going to be the wind..;)..and at the same time, sometimes Bran (or another greenseer) might well be present in it.. But I want to introduce another thought as well (if someone else hasn't already) - that especially when we're talking about at the Wall or in Winterfell , the magic of those places has a life of it's own, so that even when it isn't being directed by Bran / Bloodraven / greenseer x, it's attuned to their goals (or they are attuned to it's goals).
 
The magic itself would automatically act to blow away Mel's words, or at times distract her, interrupt her, etc., by blowing her skirts. (Perhaps it would blow her away,if it could). And even in Jon's thoughts about Mully , " the wind had turned his cheeks as red as his hair."..given the fact that Mully appears to be Bowen's catspaw (he and Bowen would have been at the Wall long enough to be "winter friends") .. then the wind might well want to chafe him more than the next guy.. And this is shortly before the hinges on the door to the ice cell scream (note that it's Wick, one of Jon's attackers, who opens the door).
 
I might have mentioned this before, but as far back as ACoK, after the miller's boys have been killed, we see Theon on the WF battlements..
 
A brisk autumn wind was swirling through the battlements. It reddened his cheeks and stung his eyes. ....
... On their iron spikes atop the gatehouse, the heads waited. 
Theon gazed at them silently while the wind tugged on his cloak with small ghostly hands.
 
This is just before his and Ramsay's combined actions force Bran and Rickon out of WF, leaving it without a Stark presence. Bran can't be present in the wind,yet.. but maybe BR can and maybe the magic of WF itself is "aware" that he's already chipping away at it's edges.
 
Since the questions around Val have been raised, I feel compelled to jump in (she's been an obsession of mine for years).. I could definitely see the one-eyed garron as an animal that has been previously skinchanged .. maybe by Bloodraven .. someone may even be present to watch what Val is doing on her mission (as Mormont's raven keeps close tabs on Jon) , but I don't think the garron is finding her way for her ..she says, "I know where I must go." ..I'm fundamentally opposed to seeing her as another character's tool, or merely a symbol.. (Not that that was necessarily being suggested.)
 
I humbly (but not too humbly) offer my own take, which has some very basic differences from sweetsunray's... (it's 3 yrs. old now, and more clues have come to me in the course of re-reads, but it's still pretty concise.)
 
 
..or a kind of short form summary in one or two of my posts, here..
 
I suppose the best way to put the difference is - I think the historic "Vala" (seers in the old Norse culture) are the best and most likely model for Val and Dalla, not the mythological Valkyries. Similarly, I think that with Tormund,  "Speaker to Gods" and "Father to Hosts" identify him as the classic Chieftain/priest of Norse culture and outweigh the Thor-like "Thunder Fist" in importance. I think the behaviour of the two characters is consistent with this.  
 
I think Morna best fits the category of primarily healer( perhaps specialising in battle wounds) but who also does some scrying and I've come to see her offer to be Jon's man or his woman  as carrying more than just a sexual connotation. She's probably considerably older, having (I believe) sons among the warrior class, as well as one among the hostages...If he doesn't want to ally with Val because of tempting his vows.. he can avoid the problem and ally with her as his seer..(???)
 
I feel sure some form of Wildling prophecy also exists of a great leader or hero emerging at a time of great crisis. The hints have been subtle but they are there, IMO... (Tormund thought at one time, "it" might be him.) ... So, had Dalla (wrongly) identified Mance as the hero? ..and does Val now believe Jon is this figure ? .. When you think about it, there are some strong similarities between Jon and Mance, and the differences between them might not be picked up in a vision. - Each came to the NW at a young age , each has (at least) one unknown parent.. each has, at different times in their lives, given good service to the Watch and each has deserted.. Both want to bring the Free Folk to shelter south of the wall and would risk themselves to do it. ... You can see how a misidentification can easily have been made.
 
LongRider.. I don't think your crackpot idea is so crackpot if Jon wargs into Ghost for any length of time (it's possible).. But I have another idea that I won't call crackpot, because I think there are enough clues to suggest it.. maybe it will appeal to you.
 
When Jon says "Ghost,"  maybe it's not a sign of him going into Ghost, but of Ghost coming into him. I don't think Jon is anywhere near as badly injured as most people believe (after picking the assassination scene apart with tweezers and a fine tooth comb) and there have been signs that Jon is a developing berserker (see the Iron Emmett bout for the clearest example) I think there's a strong possibility that he has just been shunted out of his normal consciousness into an altered mental state and may just get up off the ground and fight back with wolf-like ferocity. (In the Emmett bout, he had no awareness of his own attack, or of Emmett yielding..and he just destroyed Emmett, who was supposedly the better fighter.)

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~~~snip~~~~
 
LongRider.. I don't think your crackpot idea is so crackpot if Jon wargs into Ghost for any length of time (it's possible).. But I have another idea that I won't call crackpot, because I think there are enough clues to suggest it.. maybe it will appeal to you.
 
When Jon says "Ghost,"  maybe it's not a sign of him going into Ghost, but of Ghost coming into him. I don't think Jon is anywhere near as badly injured as most people believe (after picking the assassination scene apart with tweezers and a fine tooth comb) and there have been signs that Jon is a developing berserker (see the Iron Emmett bout for the clearest example) I think there's a strong possibility that he has just been shunted out of his normal consciousness into an altered mental state and may just get up off the ground and fight back with wolf-like ferocity. (In the Emmett bout, he had no awareness of his own attack, or of Emmett yielding..and he just destroyed Emmett, who was supposedly the better fighter.)

 

 

I like the idea of Ghost going into Jon, a bit of a difference, but important.  Like you, I'm not convinced Jon is as dead and as injured as some.  Your berserker is a new idea to me, and it's hard to come across new ideas concerning Jon's attack (in my experience, anyway.)  Hope to take a look at your links in a day or two when I'm a bit less overwhelmed (I'm moving.)

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I like the idea of Ghost going into Jon, a bit of a difference, but important.  Like you, I'm not convinced Jon is as dead and as injured as some.  Your berserker is a new idea to me, and it's hard to come across new ideas concerning Jon's attack (in my experience, anyway.)  Hope to take a look at your links in a day or two when I'm a bit less overwhelmed (I'm moving.)

 

We just moved in April.. still not totally settled . So, condolences. Here's the Jon thread, if you do like the idea (not too long)    

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130451-jon-the-berserker/

 

Now, back to Bran...

 

Hey Evita, Wizz-the-Smith, bemused and all,

I have really enjoyed this thread! I have just started a re-read of the books for the first time and will be on full alert for fogs, breezes and wind.

One thing I'm beginning to suspect is that there might be more than one player in the greenseeing game using different pawns or mentoring successors.

 

 

I've been pondering that too.. There are all those other CoTF greenseers that Bran sees on his rambles.. I think they're still on the same page with Bloodraven, but some may have their own ideas about what is good for Jon to know at a particular time.. In Jon's wolf dream where Ghost is running from the Moon, the moon turns into Mormont's raven trying to wake Jon up..Ghost had not been pleased.. but Ghost had been sensing his siblings whereabouts , which might not have been good for Jon to know at that point,in Bloodraven's opinion.

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What about Morna's mask?
 
I'd agree that I can't see wildlings hacking up weirwoods just to make baubles, but things happen that would create "found" wood ..branches get broken in storms, etc. ..And I think both Morna's mask and Val's pin do have magical and/or religious significance - things intended to draw the powers of the old gods to them to assist in their undertakings, e.g., healings, or asking to be granted visions. This would put them in a similar category with the weirwood arrows.. If taken from a living tree, it would have been taken in extreme reverence - assuming I'm correct in seeing Val as some kind of seer/priestess. (We know Morna is a witch).


Morna's mask can be thought of as one more example of the use of weirwood/heart tree imagery to conceal. Of course, there's an element of concealment that runs though the old gods religion. Greenseers see through the trees, but no one can tell if they are being watched, or who is watching. Is Morna imitating a heart tree? Why?
 
Aside from weapons, though, we really don't see any old gods followers using religious symbols, especially made from weirwood. The significance of the trees seems to be in the memories/consciousnesses stored in the living net. Does dead weirwood really have magical properties? We're not sure. (I don't count Jaime's weirwood stump as being fully dead.) Maybe the First Men misunderstood the CotF on some points. Maybe Brandon Snow's weirwood arrows wouldn't have worked any better than normal arrows. Using weirwood might have been a political statement.
 
There is one item we both missed - the CotF's weirwood bowl that Bran ate the weirwood paste from. But is it magical, or just a traditional artifact?
 
The "Vala" idea for Dalla and Val has some appeal, but there's nothing backing it up. We don't hear of any other "Vala", past or present. Dalla and Val seem to appear out of nowhere as Mance travels back north after Robert's feast. They have no backstory. I'm remaining skeptical. That brooch would make a fine item to anchor a glamour on.
 

BThe High Septon's staff might be intended to show that the old gods support the new to those the new religion was trying to convert (just as Christianity appropriated Celtic holy springs or practices) ..and the weirwood throne in the Eyrie seems to have echoes of the  Lia Fáil or the Stone of Scone

 
I still see it as dominance. The Seven-worshiping Andal invaders of the Vale defeated the First Men and made their gods into furniture. Then they sat their butts on the seat to rule the conquered. The High Septon turned a sacred tree into a walking stick.
 
 

I get a very different vibe from Val and Ghost that I did from Mel and Ghost. With Mel, there's definitely some weird manipulation going on, if we look at Ghost's behaviour. With Val, his behaviour seems much more natural.
 
Jon spontaneously thinking they look like they belong together counts for something IMO.


Appearances can be deceiving, and Jon's link with Ghost is not as strong as it should be. Val has been flirting with Jon for some time - he might not be as objective as he thinks he is. The way to a man's heart is through his wolf, maybe.

 

Don't get me wrong - these are quality ideas everyone is presenting here. I'm just wary.

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Wizz-The-Smith, LongRider , Lady Barbrey..
 
There are some very good catches and interesting possibilities here.. I'll just call some of them up at random..  I had quite forgotten Bran's "We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.".. I love that.
 
I know we're all trying to be mindful that sometimes the wind is just going to be the wind.. ;)..and at the same time, sometimes Bran (or another greenseer) might well be present in it.. But I want to introduce another thought as well (if someone else hasn't already) - that especially when we're talking about at the Wall or in Winterfell , the magic of those places has a life of it's own, so that even when it isn't being directed by Bran / Bloodraven / greenseer x, it's attuned to their goals (or they are attuned to it's goals).
 
The magic itself would automatically act to blow away Mel's words, or at times distract her, interrupt her, etc., by blowing her skirts. (Perhaps it would blow her away,if it could). And even in Jon's thoughts about Mully , " the wind had turned his cheeks as red as his hair."..given the fact that Mully appears to be Bowen's catspaw (he and Bowen would have been at the Wall long enough to be "winter friends") .. then the wind might well want to chafe him more than the next guy.. And this is shortly before the hinges on the door to the ice cell scream (note that it's Wick, one of Jon's attackers, who opens the door).
 
I might have mentioned this before, but as far back as ACoK, after the miller's boys have been killed, we see Theon on the WF battlements..
 
A brisk autumn wind was swirling through the battlements. It reddened his cheeks and stung his eyes. ....
... On their iron spikes atop the gatehouse, the heads waited. 
Theon gazed at them silently while the wind tugged on his cloak with small ghostly hands.
 
This is just before his and Ramsay's combined actions force Bran and Rickon out of WF, leaving it without a Stark presence. Bran can't be present in the wind,yet.. but maybe BR can and maybe the magic of WF itself is "aware" that he's already chipping away at it's edges.

 

Thanks bemused, I was excited to find that Bran 'Maester Luwin's rookery' quote, right after I read your post in fact, I really like your take on that and this fits right in.  

 

I really appreciate your comments on the wind as well, and of course, the wind is sometimes just the wind.  I was kind of posting a little blind, finding some cool descriptive text in amongst some other rather bland examples, it's always good to get others thoughts and try and make some sense out of it all.  On that note, I love the idea that the Wall and WF's magic are attuned to the goals of BR, Bran or greenseer x etc........  could be a way in for BR/Bran to utilise this magic and pop in and out, [wind/hinges] the wind is often on top of the Wall, blowing alongside it, swaying the winch lift etc....  And I agree that any examples that are there pre Bran's last chapter, is likely BR, close inspection needed to differentiate what's just wind/mist and something that may be a clue.

 

As for your ideas on Val, they're great, I've only briefly looked over it once, will spend more time on it next couple of days.  But that was a little along the lines of what I was seeing, my Norse mythology knowledge is at beginner stage, so working off the Valkyrie idea I was going to do some searches along them lines.  But my basic thought was Val was playing a role of helper to BR [Odin] in some way, I'm pretty sure I would've stumbled across your thread in my search, but very pleased you have brought it to my attention, looks great.  Thanks.    :)

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Hey Evita, Wizz-the-Smith, bemused and all,

I have really enjoyed this thread! I have just started a re-read of the books for the first time and will be on full alert for fogs, breezes and wind.

One thing I'm beginning to suspect is that there might be more than one player in the greenseeing game using different pawns or mentoring successors.

Wizz, I just listened to a Preston Jacobs video on wolves and sweetrobin. I don't know how many of his conclusions I believe but I was very struck by his analysis of Robin as a more important player than I had suspected. Robin sits on that weirwood throne, has that falcon and wind imagery attached to him through his forebears, is having bad dreams of singing that seem more than memories, is insistent that they aren't just dreams, dreams of flying, and wants to make people fly.

 
Hey Lady Barbrey, glad you've enjoyed this thread !  And I think you may be right about more than one player in this greenseeing game.  Bemused has some cool ideas, stretching into unseen territory with the old greenseers Bran saw, some awesome possibilities.  I recently watched History of Westeros latest video, and they mentioned Damphair's dreams and a recurring mention of screaming hinges that he relates to Euron, I have nothing more to add at the moment, but will look into this, maybe nothing but sounds interesting. 
 
I will watch Preston's video, I know he's a particular fan of Sweetrobin, and you're right a lot of the imagery you've mentioned is consistent with what we're looking for here.  Thanks for the heads up !   :)

Edited by Wizz-The-Smith

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We know how Starks and other Northerners worship the Old Gods, but the wildings may have their own various ways and ww jewelry and fetish objects might be common with them, or perhaps just found among the few seer/priestesses?  Maybe that's why Mel doesn't like her, and if she doesn't like her, it's easy for Mel to convince Selyse not to like her either.
 
And yeah, Val and Ghost belonging together.  OK, crack pot time, it just came to me, if as some predict, Jon wargs into Ghost, it would be interesting if Val and Ghost went on a bit of a trip to BR's cave.    Told ya it was crackpot!    :P

 

Haha !  Totally not crackpot, if they were to travel anywhere then that would be as good a shout as any !   :P

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Ibbison..
 
Well, you'll get no black marks from me for being wary. I think wariness is a good thing. It's always an excellent starting position and a great default, as far as I'm concerned.
 
I can see an intended element of dominance in some of the uses of weirwood, and some of the people might take the lesson... but at the same time, some of the people  receiving the message (i.e. people used to the old religion) might perceive it as validation on some level. I'm no expert, but I brought up the business of the sacred springs in our world , because in some cases, there was no way local people were going to accept a spring sacred to (e.g.) Brigid being rededicated to the Virgin Mary. In the end, the church had to appropriate Brigid and call her a saint (IIRC).. If you can't eradicate it, absorb it. Gradually, with the passage of time, you reach an eventual situation where no-one remembers it was ever a question. So I guess I'm saying I can see elements of both dominance and validation, and it's probably not as simple as one thing or the other.
 
Yes, I had overlooked Bran's bowl .. and come to think of it, I don't think it's mentioned what kind of bowls he and the Reeds ate their stew from. 
 
No, the Vala are not mentioned - just hinted at in the names Val and Dalla - but witches, woods witches and wise women are mentioned quite often ...and that is what the Vala were. Mance's NW brothers take him to an"old wisewoman" to be healed (her "daughter" heals him).. He tells Jon, of Dalla, "..it's a wise woman I've found" ..The Ghost of High Heart is referred to variously as a dwarf woman , perhaps a woman of the CoTF, and a woods witch . She dreams her prophecies (and asks for a song in payment).. The Vala are said to enter a trance (or dream state ?) to recieve their visions/predictions, after certain songs have been sung (by herself or with other women who know the rituals). Jon hears Val singing at night.. he says, to little Monster.. she says she was singing to herself. Both can be true at any given time.. or she may also have been singing an invocation.... That the Moonsingers lead the Braavosi to a safe haven through their visions, establishes that locating places /people / things etc. can be done through visions.. but their god is neither R'hllor nor the old gods ... Mel's little speech about the magical/religious power in joining male and female establishes the idea ... but the outcome in her case (shadow babies) might not be a universal result. The GoHH and Mel could both be parallels for Val.. similar, in some ways, but very different in others.
 
 There's just so much more I could say, so many more examples I could give, but I'm holding it there, except to say that if Val does have visions in a dream state, it's almost certain that they would be influenced by Bloodraven (and potentially, Bran). I see her pin as making that connection and perhaps being a symbol to other wildlings of her status (like the wand or staff of the Vala) and that she's not for stealing or hindering in any way. I'm not worried about her being under a glamour.
 
And I don't mean to say that all the threads that link Val to the valkyries, or the story line in general to Ragnarok, should be entirely discounted, but I remind even myself that GRRM has often said that he does not do straight-up allegory, and says flatly that we will not be meeting any gods in the pages of these novels. So while we don't know where he will draw the line with these associations, we can be sure a line will be drawn.
 
Also, LongRider... regarding my "berserker Jon" hypothesis: berserkers and ulfheddin were "Odin's men", so with all the Odin symbolism around Bloodraven, I think it safe to see Jon as his man (and of course now, Bran's - who always was close to Jon anyway). BR is joined to a weirwood ,and Ghost is noted by Jon as "belonging to the old gods", based on Ghost's weirwood colouring... would that make Jon and Ghost together a "Weir Wolf" ? ;).. Apart from just tickling my fancy ,knowing the way GRRM plays with words, I wouldn't rule it out.
 
Wizz.. Coming back to Bran (please excuse the digression), I wouldn't rule out any of the possibilities around him, though I like some better than others. It'll be interesting to see if any of the more nebulous ones are confirmed (or if they need to be). I'm really eager for his storyline, because I doubt his skinchanging and ramblings with Hodor, combined with Bran's spirit of adventure, have been introduced only to have nothing more important to do... and at the same time, we have Theon ready and willing to "recieve the word".

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