Heresy 172

[Black Crow]

Yes, there's that. But it also seems unlikely that anyone but perhaps Rhaegar would need to conceal his identity in the first place - I can see Robert going after Rhaegar even to the Wall, but otherwise, past lives are forgotten and all that ...

That's why I'm suggesting that if there's a secret identity involved it goes back to when Mance was a boy, not a grown man. Who is the boy who grew up to be a man of the Nights Watch?

[e1kabong]

other than being god at fighting, which rhaegar also was, there is nothing to tie mance to dayne. and if anyone has secretly survived, it has something to do with that line, richard monmouth's body was never recovered, because otherwise, why include that?

dayne didn't dress in red and black silk. dayne didn't steal a stark princess and return a child. dayne shouldn't be obsessed with summerhall and jenny of oldstones. dayne wasn't a musician at all as far as we know.

ultimately what this connects to is our previous toj discussion. something there is not as it seems. maybe it is the line "they found him cradling her"

the obvious impression is that someone found ned holding lyanna as she died, but the trick is that it is actually ned and howland finding rhaegar holding lyanna as she died

Except that Dayne was sworn to the Targaryens and Rhaegar's closest friend, which means that all the same connections apply, with the exception of the musician aspects (since we never know Dayne's musical inclinations, if any). All the cues about Mance's identity can just as easily be Dayne's remembrance of his good friend (ie - being stirred by Rhaegar's colors, obsessed with the "kidnapping" that resulted in Rhaegar's death, etc.).

Moreover, I think Dayne makes a lot more sense with the plot of the story. If Mance Rayder is Rhaegar, the only real plot point he serves is to deliver the news of Jon's parentage. However, implicitly, he is yet another possible contender for the Iron Throne (and a direct negation of any claim Jon, Aegon, and Dany have). Seems too intrusive this late in the game and throws the balance that out of whack right during the end-game. Sure, it's a possibility, but Dayne would not only be a nice reveal, he would serve the plot better.

Like Rhaegar, he can shed light on Jon's parentage, but without the inherent problem of adding a new competitor for the Iron Throne. In addition, someone will likely have to win over the Lannisters about the whole "great war" thing. I get the distinct impression that Dayne is a mentor to Jaime, and could probably make a strong case for Jaime (and his related forces) to join up.

Honestly, I'm not sure how likely either choice is, but if I had to pick one possibility, I think Dayne fits a lot better.

[Reposado]

Except that Dayne was sworn to the Targaryens and Rhaegar's closest friend, which means that all the same connections apply, with the exception of the musician aspects (since we never know Dayne's musical inclinations, if any). All the cues about Mance's identity can just as easily be Dayne's remembrance of his good friend (ie - being stirred by Rhaegar's colors, obsessed with the "kidnapping" that resulted in Rhaegar's death, etc.).

Moreover, I think Dayne makes a lot more sense with the plot of the story. If Mance Rayder is Rhaegar, the only real plot point he serves is to deliver the news of Jon's parentage. However, implicitly, he is yet another possible contender for the Iron Throne (and a direct negation of any claim Jon, Aegon, and Dany have). Seems too intrusive this late in the game and throws the balance that out of whack right during the end-game. Sure, it's a possibility, but Dayne would not only be a nice reveal, he would serve the plot better.

Like Rhaegar, he can shed light on Jon's parentage, but without the inherent problem of adding a new competitor for the Iron Throne. In addition, someone will likely have to win over the Lannisters about the whole "great war" thing. I get the distinct impression that Dayne is a mentor to Jaime, and could probably make a strong case for Jaime (and his related forces) to join up.

Honestly, I'm not sure how likely either choice is, but if I had to pick one possibility, I think Dayne fits a lot better.

is there any evidence that arthur survived the 7-3 battle though? not really. while we do have the ruby thing and the richard lonmouths body not being found for rhaegar

[Sly Wren]

That's why I'm suggesting that if there's a secret identity involved it goes back to when Mance was a boy, not a grown man. Who is the boy who grew up to be a man of the Nights Watch?

Are you asking rhetorically or do you have someone in mind? I can't think of anyone who fits the bill of a boy who ended up with wildling raiders. I agree that Quorin and the others have no reason to dissemble about his backstory. But I can't think of anything specific.

[e1kabong]

is there any evidence that arthur survived the 7-3 battle though? not really. while we do have the ruby thing and the richard lonmouths body not being found for rhaegar

Not direct evidence, but as far as faked death conspiracies go, there are way more witnesses to Rhaegar's death and burial, seeing as though he died in a great battle and was buried in the main sept in the capital. Whereas, if you believe in ToJ conspiracies, the only people to see Arthur Dayne's dead body would have been Ned (who due to "the promise" might lie), Howland Reed (who would lie due to Stark loyalty), and House Dayne (who could be convinced to lie by the Sword in the Morning, himself).

Moreover, Rhaegar having access to magic would mean that Mance has access to magic, yet the only glamouring we see is Mel's spell on him. So, you're telling me that there's multiple glamours operating at once? There's strong indication that magic hasn't been prevalent at the time Rhaegar was killed and only started coming back into the world recently. So the idea of such powerful spells that they persist in death prior to the rebirth of magic is one I find dubious.

All that being said, I'm not familiar with any "missing Richard Lonsmouth" quotes from the book. I remember the Harrenhal story where he's mentioned as drinking and carrying on with Bobby Baratheon, but not where they talk about him being missing. Moreover, if we have a missing Lonsmouth, I think Patchface is a much better suspect (Melisandre's vision of Patchface with red lips surrounded by skulls is a direct correlation to House Lonsmouth's banners). Is there any quotes about where he sided in the war? He was Rhaegar's squire and friend, but is also a bannerman of House Baratheon and seems friendly with Robert as well.

[WhitewolfStark]

I was wondering if we could chat about this quotation from AGOT. BC mentioned it a few threads ago and it's been an earworm in my head for a while now.

"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

"And tell him I've not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he'd come back. So you'll tell him I'm waiting, won't you? I don't want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly."

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

"Well, he has more than you, for a start."

----Eddard IX

First, so I can say I'm not discounting anything from bias, I quoted the context, which does indeed prompt a woman getting Ned to promise him something, which in turn causes him to think of Lyanna and the promises he made her.

Pro-R+L=J view: Ned thinking about Lyanna's promises is followed by Ned's thoughts of Jon later on (after he's promised her what he can and is riding through the rain).

The Observation I make: Ned's question seems dispirited & depressed as he says that, seeming to imply complicity in the actions he's contemplating in that thought.

The question becomes, if R+L=J is true, then what bastard or lust that's produced such a bastard is Ned speaking about? The Ashara Dayne connection? Or perhaps a woman named Wylla that we do not know beyond the fact that Ned has admitted to having slept with a woman outside of marriage to Cat?

If R+L=J is not true, then it's about Jon still--which feels natural considering Ned was still thinking of Jon just before this.

Alternative, it's still about Jon, but Jon's not the ubermensch secret prince-ling of some of the R+L=J fantasies, instead he's simply Rhaegar's bastard.

Then why does that line still feel so personal to Ned?

[e1kabong]

I was wondering if we could chat about this quotation from AGOT. BC mentioned it a few threads ago and it's been an earworm in my head for a while now.

First, so I can say I'm not discounting anything from bias, I quoted the context, which does indeed prompt a woman getting Ned to promise him something, which in turn causes him to think of Lyanna and the promises he made her.

Pro-R+L=J view: Ned thinking about Lyanna's promises is followed by Ned's thoughts of Jon later on (after he's promised her what he can and is riding through the rain).

The Observation I make: Ned's question seems dispirited & depressed as he says that, seeming to imply complicity in the actions he's contemplating in that

The question becomes, if R+L=J is true, then what bastard or lust that's produced such a bastard is Ned speaking about? The Ashara Dayne connection? Or perhaps a woman named Wylla that we do not know beyond the fact that Ned has admitted to having slept with a woman outside of marriage to Cat?

If R+L=J is not true, then it's about Jon still--which feels natural considering Ned was still thinking of Jon just before this.

Alternative, it's still about Jon, but Jon's not the ubermensch secret prince-ling of some of the R+L=J fantasies, instead he's simply Rhaegar's bastard.

Then why does that line still feel so personal to Ned?

The lust line still fits if R+L=J. Ned might view Rhaegar and Lyanna's "love" the same way he views Robert's, foolish and not something of real merit, which certainly fits how he might view his sister running of with a married man. I get the distinct impression that Ned isn't really a romantic, so his comparison of that type of "love" with "lust" is somewhat understandable.

[Voice]

I was wondering if we could chat about this quotation from AGOT. BC mentioned it a few threads ago and it's been an earworm in my head for a while now.

First, so I can say I'm not discounting anything from bias, I quoted the context, which does indeed prompt a woman getting Ned to promise him something, which in turn causes him to think of Lyanna and the promises he made her.

Pro-R+L=J view: Ned thinking about Lyanna's promises is followed by Ned's thoughts of Jon later on (after he's promised her what he can and is riding through the rain).

The Observation I make: Ned's question seems dispirited & depressed as he says that, seeming to imply complicity in the actions he's contemplating in that

The question becomes, if R+L=J is true, then what bastard or lust that's produced such a bastard is Ned speaking about? The Ashara Dayne connection? Or perhaps a woman named Wylla that we do not know beyond the fact that Ned has admitted to having slept with a woman outside of marriage to Cat?

If R+L=J is not true, then it's about Jon still--which feels natural considering Ned was still thinking of Jon just before this.

Alternative, it's still about Jon, but Jon's not the ubermensch secret prince-ling of some of the R+L=J fantasies, instead he's simply Rhaegar's bastard.

Then why does that line still feel so personal to Ned?

This chapter negates RLJ. For myself, at least.

I just posted this over at RLJ actually:

Ned reflects on his own weakness in the brothel chapter, and the weaknesses of men in general, while simultaneously exempting Rhaegar Targaryen from such weaknesses. That is quite the bombshell, for those with eyes to see it.

[Lord Ravenstark]

To be honest, the "promise me, Ned" can have so many meanings. Most people around here see what thye want to see, cause they can't stop thinking of Jon as the savior of mankind, perfect boy...

Now that you spoke about Ashara, I wonder what took her to suicide. I can imagine Ashara and Ned deeply in love. Ned was a second son, his brother was already married to a important lord. The Daynes are no week lordlings, either. Brandon's death and Ned marrying another woman, that in time he came to love. Maybe he even let her with baby, but that's conjecture.

It would be interesting, in comparison. Both Robert and Eddard would have married women they didn't expect... it is just that Ned managed to get through it, Bob didn't.

[wolfmaid7]

This chapter negates RLJ. For myself, at least.

I just posted this over at RLJ actually:

Ned reflects on his own weakness in the brothel chapter, and the weaknesses of men in general, while simultaneously exempting Rhaegar Targaryen from such weaknesses. That is quite the bombshell, for those with eyes to see it.

I agree,and to reiterate a point already made.Rhaegar might be more comfy sitting atop a perch with JonCon steering into each other's eyes.Elia probably had to show him wehere to put it.

[Lord Ravenstark]

This chapter negates RLJ. For myself, at least.

I just posted this over at RLJ actually:

Ned reflects on his own weakness in the brothel chapter, and the weaknesses of men in general, while simultaneously exempting Rhaegar Targaryen from such weaknesses. That is quite the bombshell, for those with eyes to see it.

For my eyes, it always sounded like Ned thinks in Rhaegar as the too holy for this sinful earth melancholic gay dude who had the duty to provide a heir to the realm.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I agree,and to reiterate a point already made.Rhaegar might be more comfy sitting atop a perch with JonCon steering into each other's eyes.Elia probably had to show him wehere to put it.

We had the same idea, then. Good to know I am not alone. For me it was obvious, at every time someone talks about Rhaegar, that he is not the kind of dude who would touch a girl willingly.

[WhitewolfStark]

The lust line still fits if R+L=J. Ned might view Rhaegar and Lyanna's "love" the same way he views Robert's, foolish and not something of real merit, which certainly fits how he might view his sister running of with a married man. I get the distinct impression that Ned isn't really a romantic, so his comparison of that type of "love" with "lust" is somewhat understandable.

True. But his comment is about men's lusts--and last I checked Lyanna was Ned's sister, not Ned's brother.

And Ned, as Voice mentions below, and I'll quote, exonerates Rhaegar from having such lusts:

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

The rain was falling harder now, stinging the eyes and drumming against the ground. Rivers of black water were running down the hill when Jory called out, "My lord," his voice hoarse with alarm. And in an instant, the street was full of soldiers.

----Eddard IX

Which if Rhaegar had such desires to produce such bastards, is an odd thing to think when you've been raising Rhaegar's bastard all these years. Conversely, many take this to mean that Rhaegar married Lyanna, and if Ned knows Jon is "legitimate" then why think about him while he thinks about the sorry lot of bastards and their sires?

This chapter negates RLJ. For myself, at least.

I just posted this over at RLJ actually:

Ned reflects on his own weakness in the brothel chapter, and the weaknesses of men in general, while simultaneously exempting Rhaegar Targaryen from such weaknesses. That is quite the bombshell, for those with eyes to see it.

Pretty much what I was trying to work towards.

To be honest, the "promise me, Ned" can have so many meanings. Most people around here see what thye want to see, cause they can't stop thinking of Jon as the savior of mankind, perfect boy...

Now that you spoke about Ashara, I wonder what took her to suicide. I can imagine Ashara and Ned deeply in love. Ned was a second son, his brother was already married to a important lord. The Daynes are no week lordlings, either. Brandon's death and Ned marrying another woman, that in time he came to love. Maybe he even let her with baby, but that's conjecture.

It would be interesting, in comparison. Both Robert and Eddard would have married women they didn't expect... it is just that Ned managed to get through it, Bob didn't.

Agreed that the "promise me Ned" is a litmus test to see what kind of story you believe this is and/or want to read.

With Ashara I've conjectured in the past that she and Elia performed the baby switch themselves, with Ashara's baby dying in Aegon's place as it fits with George's stated "inspiration" for ASOIAF: Les Rois Maudits, and explains rather neatly and interestingly Ashara's role in the story.

And if Ashara's child was Ned's... what a gigantic bombshell.

[Sly Wren]

This chapter negates RLJ. For myself, at least.

I just posted this over at RLJ actually:

Ned reflects on his own weakness in the brothel chapter, and the weaknesses of men in general, while simultaneously exempting Rhaegar Targaryen from such weaknesses. That is quite the bombshell, for those with eyes to see it.

Agree that Ned wonders if Rhaegar frequented brothels. Then thinks not. But that seems a far cry from "exempting" Rhaegar from weaknesses/lusts of men in general. Even in context of the rest of the scene. Not saying we know enough about Rhaegar to assert he had those weaknesses, but can't see how this excludes it. Raises questions, yes. But how are you getting to "excluding?" Can't see that yet. . . .

I agree,and to reiterate a point already made.Rhaegar might be more comfy sitting atop a perch with JonCon steering into each other's eyes.Elia probably had to show him wehere to put it.

HA! Yes--they'd make an interesting boy band. Still, though I've thought myself that Rhaegar might be gay, we don't have anywhere near enough to support that ye. JonCon--yeah. That's supportable.

For my eyes, it always sounded like Ned thinks in Rhaegar as the too holy for this sinful earth melancholic gay dude who had the duty to provide a heir to the realm.

Yeah--this I really can't see. It's one sentence, if I remember right. "He thought not." Seems a far cry from "holy". . . .

[WhitewolfStark]

I agree,and to reiterate a point already made.Rhaegar might be more comfy sitting atop a perch with JonCon steering into each other's eyes.Elia probably had to show him wehere to put it.

For my eyes, it always sounded like Ned thinks in Rhaegar as the too holy for this sinful earth melancholic gay dude who had the duty to provide a heir to the realm.

I could see this, if we get a chapter where Jon Con essentially states that he was doing more than pining. If Rhaegar was gay, Jon Con apparently knew nothing about it from the vibe I get from his chapters (all longing and no release).

We had the same idea, then. Good to know I am not alone. For me it was obvious, at every time someone talks about Rhaegar, that he is not the kind of dude who would touch a girl willingly.

Or at least is the brooding Byronic emo. ;-)

But yeah, that would put a twist on all the preconceived notions of R+L=J and be rather satisfying, I'd say.

It would make me wonder then why the Tower of Joy was called the Tower of... wait... it's in Dorne (near the border) and not too far away from Summerhall (comparitively speaking to King's Landing)... Tinfoil: The reason the Tower of Joy is called that, is because that's where Rhaegar and Arthur met before Arthur joined the Kingsguard. And all this time Rhaegar was gay, but into Arthur, not Jon Con. :drunk:

[Sly Wren]

It would make me wonder then why the Tower of Joy was called the Tower of... wait... it's in Dorne (near the border) and not too far away from Summerhall (comparitively speaking to King's Landing)... Tinfoil: The reason the Tower of Joy is called that, is because that's where Rhaegar and Arthur met before Arthur joined the Kingsguard. And all this time Rhaegar was gay, but into Arthur, not Jon Con. :drunk:

Yup! My brain went there a few days ago. Nice twist on the Lancelot, Arthur, Guinevere scenario--just Arthur and Lancelot.

No way to prove it--but it would be a great twist.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I could see this, if we get a chapter where Jon Con essentially states that he was doing more than pining. If Rhaegar was gay, Jon Con apparently knew nothing about it from the vibe I get from his chapters (all longing and no release).

Or at least is the brooding Byronic emo. ;-)

But yeah, that would put a twist on all the preconceived notions of R+L=J and be rather satisfying, I'd say.

It would make me wonder then why the Tower of Joy was called the Tower of... wait... it's in Dorne (near the border) and not too far away from Summerhall (comparitively speaking to King's Landing)... Tinfoil: The reason the Tower of Joy is called that, is because that's where Rhaegar and Arthur met before Arthur joined the Kingsguard. And all this time Rhaegar was gay, but into Arthur, not Jon Con. :drunk:

Arthur and Rhaegar being lovers actually makes far more sense than Rhaegar as Jon's father.

[Mace Cooterian]

Good question. I would say so and as Wolfmaid and I are agreed Vinculus is superb.

However a fair warning to all. The magic of the Raven King has pretty well been lost and the ending a big disappointment

And I concur. What a pleasant surprise to find Vinculus as our favorite red priest of Myr being non other than Thoros himself. Allow me to sift through the chaff and get to a few questions:

Is it your believe (and I'm being lazy as I could very well go back through the pages upon pages of Heretical rhetoric):

• Strange & Norrell are the embodiment of what GRRM is creating with the Bran and Bloodraven story arc?

If yes to the prior (and I preface again, as I have only seen three episodes....so spoilers allowed) where do you see the Raven King (John Unkglass) fitting into the mix? Or to be more direct, as you seeing him as the Great Other, or something else?

P.S: After three episodes I'm still finding it difficult to ascertain who is good from who is "bad". I tend to lean towards Strange as something good, as Norrell appears to be hiding something. I might add that the Gentlemen is evil incarnate.

My take.

[Voice]

Agree that Ned wonders if Rhaegar frequented brothels. Then thinks not. But that seems a far cry from "exempting" Rhaegar from weaknesses/lusts of men in general. Even in context of the rest of the scene. Not saying we know enough about Rhaegar to assert he had those weaknesses, but can't see how this excludes it. Raises questions, yes. But how are you getting to "excluding?" Can't see that yet. . . .

I meant the chapter as a whole, for me, negates Rhaegar as Jon's father, particularly if Lyanna is Jon's mother, not that single part. There are many strikes against RLJ in this chapter. But that passage is quite suggestive regarding the weaknesses of men like himself (Ned) and Robert. And yes, he does seem to exclude Rhaegar. I'll break down my reading of it...

Eddard IX:

Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts¹. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." ²

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair . . . "

"She does." Eddard Stark had touched the baby's fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert's firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall.³

"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it . . . as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.⁴

"And tell him I've not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he'd come back. So you'll tell him I'm waiting, won't you? I don't want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly." ⁵

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."⁵

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him.⁵ Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? ⁶

"Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?" ⁷

"Well, he has more than you, for a start."

"How many?"

Littlefinger shrugged. Rivulets of moisture twisted down the back of his cloak. "Does it matter? If you bed enough women, some will give you presents, and His Grace has never been shy on that count. I know he's acknowledged that boy at Storm's End, the one he fathered the night Lord Stannis wed. He could hardly do otherwise. The mother was a Florent, niece to the Lady Selyse, one of her bedmaids. Renly says that Robert carried the girl upstairs during the feast, and broke in the wedding bed while Stannis and his bride were still dancing. Lord Stannis seemed to think that was a blot on the honor of his wife's House, so when the boy was born, he shipped him off to Renly." He gave Ned a sideways glance. "I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home." ⁸

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough . . . but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. "Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king's baseborn children?" ⁹

The short man gave a sodden shrug. "He was the King's Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for."

Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. "It had to be more than that, or why kill him?"

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." ¹⁰

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.¹¹ He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.¹²

1. What old guilts should our honorable Eddard have?

From Lyanna's own mouth (and one of the few things we learn from her own mouth), she took issue with Robert not keeping to one bed before they were even betrothed! How then, could she abide, be complicit in, and even encourage Rhaegar's infidelity. Rhaegar was not only betrothed, he was wed.

The whore's daughter has the same hair as the babe Ned discussed with Lyanna. Eddard is remembering Lyanna's disapproval of such philanderings. Jon Arryn was the one protecting hidden bastard-heirs, not Eddard Stark.

Ah, the promise. The promises Ned made to Lyanna as she lay dying. Would he tell her the truth? That he killed Arthur Dayne? Or would he ease her passing from this world by telling a lie that was not without honor? And, what is it that prompts Ned to recall the promises he made to Lyanna? Why, it was the request from this poor young girl.

"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it . . . as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."

Ned knew Robert would not honor this girl, just as he knew he and Arthur could do nothing for Lyanna at that point.

"Good to me..." yeah right. Some good. What's more interesting is the promise Ned makes here. He doesn't promise to hide a hidden heir, he only promises that the child shall not go wanting. And what more could a desperate young mother as for? I have a feeling Lyanna was offered the same promise, and gave Ned a tremulous and sweet smile that cut the heart out of him...

Lusts? Wait a minute... What lusts? Rhaegar surely wasn't acting out of lust! He had just fulfilled the prophecy of tptwp with the birth of his son Aegon, and the dragon needs three heads. He's not acting out of lust, he's rising to the call of duty. Doesn't Ned really mean to ask why the gods fill men with the urge to elope and have secret weddings? ;) Joking of course, but it is a very interesting paragraph. And, at the very least, seems to confirm that Jon is a bastard. Are these "lusts" Eddard's or Robert's? Or both? Is Ned also recalling the lust of his fellow man of impeccable honor, Arthur Dayne? It's all conjecture, but I think you will agree that "lustful" would seem to be applicable to any of these men, save Rhaegar Targaryen.

The wheels are turning in Ned's head, slower than Petyr's to be sure, but they are turning. In pondering the lusts of men, he asks Petyr how many bastards the king has, which, of course, isn't all that different from being considerate of the young freckled girl with a babe in arms, and wondering how many more unfortunate girls like her there are. We know there are many, and Petyr tells of a few.

Thus, the reasons Ned hid Jon.

Because Jon Arryn was in the business of protecting the king's only heirs. Funny that Ned doesn't make that connection if he were in fact doing the same thing.

Hmm.... "blurt out that the sun rises in the east..." It's an interesting choice of quip here from GRRM. The sun of dawn rises in the east. The sword of the morning is the rising sun of Dawn. Dawn of the Day=Dayne. Natural fire, rather than Valyrian. Jon doesn't feel right holding Longclaw. It isn't his father's sword, after all. ;)

Another damning choice of words. Regardless of the other times Ned recalls Rhaegar, and the various ways the faithful have attempted to explain-away this anomaly, it remains a ponderous statement if Rhaegar was indeed Jon's father. I think the whole chapter removes Rhaegar from the discussion, and this is but one more reason to do so (for myself).

Rhaegar was next in line, and would now sit the IT if Eddard had not aided in usurping the dragonlords, and planted his drunken, lustful best friend there instead. Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face. He wondered if Rhaegar was lustful. He wondered if Rhaegar strayed and took his pleasure from multiple beds. He wondered if Rhaegar fathered bastards like Robert...

Somehow, he thought not.

[Voice]

Addicted to Snowdrops is the one who gets excited about it.

Actually I know it quite well, its less than an hour up the coast from me. Nice place.

Whoops, my bad. And AtS is definitely addicted to dropping Snow-theories. :cheers:

We're planning a trip to Europe next year and would like to make few stops in the UK. I'm not sure I could talk my wife into a trip to a fishing town, but mayhaps if I play my cards right I can do some on-the-ground reconnaissance. Of course, by then, hopefully we'll all have WoW in our hands, and along with it, some concrete answers.