Heresy 172

[Black Crow]

Wait. Now I am really confused. Are Ned and Arthur babies now? Or are Ned's babies Arthur's? Why would Ned hide beyond the wall, with so many places to hide? Which Ned are we talking now? Wait... is Ned Dayne actually the child of Arthur and Rhaegar? By looks, it would make sense, but biology would have been really messed of. Was the Tower of Joy used to hide Arthur's pregnancy? Was Arthur actually a woman? The Daynes also have magical swords and pale hair and violet eyes. Do you need those to make magical metal?

I am really confused now. :eek:

It's all right, let daddy explain.

Eddard Stark is dead - they cut his head off and stuck it on a spike, on a wall. The Lannisters have a thing about heads and spikes.

Arthur Dayne is dead too. Or at least I hope he was before Eddard Stark buried him. He did have a magic sword but it didn't do him much good. It doesn't matter how good a swordsman is or how magic his sword when some dirty rotten coward shoots him in the back

Eddard had three sons; one of them is dead too, another one is half dead and the other one is wild.

Jon Snow is not Eddard's son. We know this because GRRM has told us he will get inside the knickers of one of Eddard's two daughters.

Rhaegar was a Prince. He's dead too, which is why Danaerys is now Queen of the Dragonlords.

Danaerys is not Queen over much because most of the Dragonlords are dead. In fact there may only be one and Danaerys' dad disinherited him which is why she's the Queen and he isn't the King - and he'll probably be dead soon.

The tower of joy was how Rhaegar described the roadhouse after he discovered the bedbugs

[The Dragon has three heads]

Haha people in this thread so desperate to disprove R + L

Rhaegar is gay!

Rhaegar wasn't lustful!

Ned thinks about Rhaegar in that way because GRRM wanted him too.

He thinks that he wouldn't frequent brothels, but that doesn't mean he didn't like getting down with Elia or Lyanna. Come on, try harder plz.

[wolfmaid7]

Haha people in this thread so desperate to disprove R + L

Rhaegar is gay!

Rhaegar wasn't lustful!

Ned thinks about Rhaegar in that way because GRRM wanted him too.

He thinks that he wouldn't frequent brothels, but that doesn't mean he didn't like getting down with Elia or Lyanna. Come on, try harder plz.

This isn't a matter of desperation its a matter of thinking.

Ned thought what he thought because something about Rhaegar made him think that way.If he's wrong or right is another matter.There is something to why Aery's Knights compared Rhaegar to Baelor....Was it only because he was bookish or did he not show interest in fracking around with the ladies.Perfectly logical.Leave your negativity at the gates please.

[Voice]

What's the heretical "consensus" on GRRM stating that https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/essays/ on Daenerys in Meereen is spot on?

Yeah no consensus here Asche, which is a good thing :)

Haha people in this thread so desperate to disprove R + L

Rhaegar is gay!

Rhaegar wasn't lustful!

Ned thinks about Rhaegar in that way because GRRM wanted him too.

He thinks that he wouldn't frequent brothels, but that doesn't mean he didn't like getting down with Elia or Lyanna. Come on, try harder plz.

LOL at this post! Oh ye' who speak loudly saying nothing. You will find no desperation here my friend.

When you have some citations to support your stance, call me.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Pffffft.

Strange as it may be, I have better things to do than grab the many(as you well know) references to support R+L.

I would also like to be surprised but just because JC had the Horn for Rhaegar doesn't mean it was reciprocated.

Plus, black sails already did that twist.

Ned knew exceedingly little about Rhaegar and anything he thinks about him is conjecture, AT BEST.

Also, just because someone has a melancholy demeanour, or preferred reading to hitting people with a sword, or married out of duty, doesn't prove any of your own(vauge) points either.

And poking holes in some of the more cracked theories is not negativity, it's what I do.

So you can keep your high horse.

Thanks.

[Sly Wren]

Pffffft.

Strange as it may be, I have better things to do than grab the many(as you well know) references to support R+L.

I would also like to be surprised but just because JC had the Horn for Rhaegar doesn't mean it was reciprocated.

Plus, black sails already did that twist.

Ned knew exceedingly little about Rhaegar and anything he thinks about him is conjecture, AT BEST.

Also, just because someone has a melancholy demeanour, or preferred reading to hitting people with a sword, or married out of duty, doesn't prove any of your own(vauge) points either.

And poking holes in some of the more cracked theories is not negativity, it's what I do.

So you can keep your high horse.

Thanks.

Fair enough. As has been said a few times above--there's no consensus here. Just the house rules as stated in Black Crow's signature and in the OP. That's really all we ask. Easy.

[Sly Wren]

Ned's quote along with Selmy's info on Aery's Knights cracking on Rhaegar for being like Baelor the blessed to says Rhaegar probably scene a couple of sausages up close.Its kind of tough to actually gauge what they were referencing.We know Baelor wasn't known for his liking of the ladies.

Yes--my brain went to "Rhaegar might be gay" a little while ago. My big problem with going with that is the lack of info makes that or almost anything else about Rhaegar hard to pin down. Ned may speak of Rhaegar, but his thoughts are never expansive. Gay is an option, so is reclusive and devoted to wife, so is reclusive and devoted to books--and probably a dozen more I haven't thought of.

11 and 12:

I don't see how an argument can be made that Rhaegar was too smart to put himself in that position, if R+L=J truly, because Rhaegar ended up dead in a river as a result. But, more directly, I think Ned makes the distinction quite clear. There are lustful men, who visit brothels and father bastards, then there is Rhaegar. He didn't doubt Rhaegar visited because he was too smart to, but because he was no Robert Baratheon to go bed-hopping. Rhaegar loved his lady Elia ;) and he kept to her bed. Lyanna was not a homewrecker, and Rhaegar believed his son Aegon was tptwp. If he was smart, he was too smart to risk abducting the wolf girl. I think it's far more likely that he went to war for his friend, Arthur, just as Ned went to war for his friend Robert.

I respect your bottom line, but for me, taken as a whole it is damning. And this is coming from the guy who was saying Rhaegar is the only man to have ever bedded Lyanna, canonically speaking. So I don't take this stuff lightly. I came to this realization while trying to prove RLJ to myself, which is pretty ironic. LOL

Yeah--I didn't explain that at all well. Meant I saw it more as a dig against Robert than an insightful comment on Rhaegar--IE--"not even Rhaegar would be this stupid." But it's hard for me to pin down, because the comment is so short. Can't go with you yet on scene as being decisive. But can fully agree it raises questions.

And I also respect your bottom line. I may not agree with the overall conclusion, but I fully respect your argument and process. And agree it raises questions.

Notwithstanding what appears to be a strict moral code adhered to by Lord Eddard, I can't avoid the feeling that this was not a friendly thought

Yes--not a compliment to Rhaegar--definitely a dig at Robert. And easily could be a dig at Rhaegar, too.

[wolfmaid7]

Pffffft.

Strange as it may be, I have better things to do than grab the many(as you well know) references to support R+L.

I would also like to be surprised but just because JC had the Horn for Rhaegar doesn't mean it was reciprocated.

Plus, black sails already did that twist.

Ned knew exceedingly little about Rhaegar and anything he thinks about him is conjecture, AT BEST.

Also, just because someone has a melancholy demeanour, or preferred reading to hitting people with a sword, or married out of duty, doesn't prove any of your own(vauge) points either.

And poking holes in some of the more cracked theories is not negativity, it's what I do.

So you can keep your high horse.

Thanks.

You do know that RLJ is just a theory right?One that has not been confirm by the author.It is not default theory,certainly not here.Per the canon Wylla and Ned are Jon Snow's parents and we are all just questioning the canon, which we are entitled to do.So until the canon is validated or dismissed we will continue to pint out what makes sense and what doesn't and see where that takes us. :cheers:

You are right just because JonCon had feelings for Rhaegar doesn't mean feelings wer returned.

Just because Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QOLAB doesn't mean he had feelings for her.

Just because she cried at a song he played doesn't mean she had feelings for him.

So there's a lot of just beacuse and doesn't mean,that why we are looking at text.

[Sly Wren]

I vaguely remember reading through one of the threads with someone arguing that about Lyanna...

The theory itself, certainly doesn't provide enough evidence to make it plausible, however, something about it still rings true to me. I can see Rhaegar washing up on the Quiet Isle after the battle, meeting up with Lyanna, who is nearly ready to give birth. He stays with her until Ned shows up, but knows Lyanna is dying. He feels he must live due to the prophesied future, but knows that he can only survive in hiding. For whatever reason, he is forced to turn to the many faces God/faceless men and must in turn dedicate himself to them for their assistance. It would certainly give this group a stronger reason to be introduced to us in the series. Plus it's already rumored for them (the faceless men) to have a Targaryan link through BR. In a way that would also help to make sense of Jaqen's protective behavior towards Arya. This could be one of the secrets that Ned is harboring. Also, if Howland Reed burst out that Rhaegar was still alive during the battle with the KG this would certainly give Arthur Dayne reason to pause, and possibly go into hiding himself. Or I could just be nuts...

First--re: your previous post--a belated, yet no less sincere, welcome! Very sorry to be remiss--I really though we had welcomed you. You fit in so easily.

I kind of like the idea of Rhaegar's being alive--and I agree that we have the possibility of someone else in his armor. But it really seems like he is still influencing the plot plenty without being alive.

Plus, I struggle with working out Lyanna's being on the Quiet Isle--what little evidence we do have at least heavily hints at Dorne-ish locale. It doesn't rule out the Quiet Isle--someone earlier was raising the same idea. But seems like it would require Ned to either go south, have the KG fight, go to Starfall to pick up Wylla the wet-nurse, and then come to the Isle, or go to the Isle, get Lyanna and baby, go south, have fight with KG, go to Starfall to drop off sword and pick up wet-nurse--or some other combo of the same events.

It's been shown multiple times that the timelines are mince--but the scenarios I just listed seem a bit much. Unless you've got a better option . . .

[wolfmaid7]

Yes--my brain went to "Rhaegar might be gay" a little while ago. My big problem with going with that is the lack of info makes that or almost anything else about Rhaegar hard to pin down. Ned may speak of Rhaegar, but his thoughts are never expansive. Gay is an option, so is reclusive and devoted to wife, so is reclusive and devoted to books--and probably a dozen more I haven't thought of.

Of definitely there isn't a lot of info about Rhaegar hence the reason for gleaning from what is there.Rhaegar as far as characters go in this series is the one who is veiwed through colored glasses the most and that's a problem because everyone is flawed.Even the one bad act he is reported to have comitted is romantized and in Cersie's case seen as a dig against her.From Dany's point of view if Elia was a better wife Rhaegar wouldn't have taken Lyanna. All this is a problem.

In truth do i think Rhaegar was gay probably not he comes off a bit asexual and that's a consideration.He probably was just not sexually attracted to anyone.Disinterested in the whole affair.Yes he would have peformed out of duty,but maybe that wasn't his thing.The man has no paper trail with regards to either in this story.Take a pick you couldprobably find some history for or against such a thing.There's nothing except two bits of info.

Ned's statement about Rhaegar not being the kind to visit brothels and him being compared to Baelor which again could be the bookish nature or not being down with sex for whatever reason.We can take the pick.But that brothel chapter has some negativity directed at Rhaegar from Ned...No doubt about it.

[Mace Cooterian]

You are right just because JonCon had feelings for Rhaegar doesn't mean feelings wer returned.

Actually, GRRM was really shooting for the male version of "Orange is the new Black".

Rather than taking place in a prison environment, the story starts in a far away place in a land called Westreros.

Queue "Phillip Frye".

[Black Crow]

Haha people in this thread so desperate to disprove R + L

Rhaegar is gay!

Rhaegar wasn't lustful!

Ned thinks about Rhaegar in that way because GRRM wanted him too.

He thinks that he wouldn't frequent brothels, but that doesn't mean he didn't like getting down with Elia or Lyanna. Come on, try harder plz.

Alas my friend, I fear you miss the point. This thread is not about disproving R+L=J at all, but rather about taking a critical look at the story as a whole, of which this is only one aspect. It happens at this moment some are discussing it but there is no mission to disprove anything.

If you want to play here, read the OP and follow the house rules in my signature block

[Black Crow]

Of definitely there isn't a lot of info about Rhaegar hence the reason for gleaning from what is there.Rhaegar as far as characters go in this series is the one who is veiwed through colored glasses the most and that's a problem because everyone is flawed.Even the one bad act he is reported to have comitted is romantized and in Cersie's case seen as a dig against her.From Dany's point of view if Elia was a better wife Rhaegar wouldn't have taken Lyanna. All this is a problem.

The real problem, as with much of the way the discussion is conducted elsewhere is that it is conclusion driven. As I've said many times before I don't have a problem with R+L=J as an historical fact. Where the problem lies is in the assumption that R+L=Jon Targaryen First of His Name and this is therefore played backwards as well as forwards to elevate Rhaegar as a character and so with inevitable circularity propose that Jon [snow] be read accordingly.

[Black Crow]

I kind of like the idea of Rhaegar's being alive--and I agree that we have the possibility of someone else in his armor. But it really seems like he is still influencing the plot plenty without being alive.

This is basically what I've just been saying to Wolfmaid. It's possible to argue that he may be influencing the plot but I think that has far more to do with people wanting him to influence the plot to a degree that simply isn't justified by the text.

Whether or not he was Jon's biological father really isn't that important. He's dead and he died before Jon was born. What's important is what Jon Snow decides to do with whatever kind of life he wakes up with and being brutally honest here there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he will turn his back on everything he has known and which has shaped him to become a Targaryen prince, no matter how much some people want that.

[wolfmaid7]

This is basically what I've just been saying to Wolfmaid. It's possible to argue that he may be influencing the plot but I think that has far more to do with people wanting him to influence the plot to a degree that simply isn't justified by the text.

Whether or not he was Jon's biological father really isn't that important. He's dead and he died before Jon was born. What's important is what Jon Snow decides to do with whatever kind of life he wakes up with and being brutally honest here there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he will turn his back on everything he has known and which has shaped him to become a Targaryen prince, no matter how much some people want that.

100% agree with this its all a reset its all about the Snow and what he will do as Jon Snow.

[wolfmaid7]

Actually, GRRM was really shooting for the male version of "Orange is the new Black".

Rather than taking place in a prison environment, the story starts in a far away place in a land called Westreros.

Queue "Phillip Frye".

HA!

[TheSmallOther]

Haha people in this thread so desperate to disprove R + L

Rhaegar is gay!

Rhaegar wasn't lustful!

Ned thinks about Rhaegar in that way because GRRM wanted him too.

He thinks that he wouldn't frequent brothels, but that doesn't mean he didn't like getting down with Elia or Lyanna. Come on, try harder plz.

What are you sinking... about?

There is much more fun in this thread than focus on "disapprove RLJ". People look for a symbols, hidden meanings in the text. Sometimes conclusions are really interesting. Funny thing is, some people in RLJ thread do the same, only conclusions sometimes are different.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Alas my friend, I fear you miss the point. This thread is not about disproving R+L=J at all, but rather about taking a critical look at the story as a whole, of which this is only one aspect. It happens at this moment some are discussing it but there is no mission to disprove anything.

If you want to play here, read the OP and follow the house rules in my signature block

I am aware of all that.

I have been posting on and off in this thread for about 3(maybe more??) years.

Let me be clear though, I have zero vested interest in RLJ it is, as stated above, just one more theory.

Albeit to be fair, a well supported one.

What i do shake my head at is the leaps made off many characters limited POV or memories.

And further the blithe way in which a previous poster spoke down to me.

I think the tone of my original post was misread, it was merely a head shake moment at straw grasping on behalf of people WANTING their version of events to be THE version of events.

This board is littered with it, you know this only too well I think BC.

As to proving or disproving I am genuinely open to a different outcome than RJL but at this stage, not a great deal else makes as much sense as that particular theory.

Shrug.

[Black Crow]

I agree that R+L=J is the most likely answer, although the real question is the outcome.

Let us just say that your post was unfortunately worded, leave it at that and move on :cheers:

[WhitewolfStark]

I am aware of all that.

I have been posting on and off in this thread for about 3(maybe more??) years.

Let me be clear though, I have zero vested interest in RLJ it is, as stated above, just one more theory.

Albeit to be fair, a well supported one.

What i do shake my head at is the leaps made off many characters limited POV or memories.

And further the blithe way in which a previous poster spoke down to me.

I think the tone of my original post was misread, it was merely a head shake moment at straw grasping on behalf of people WANTING their version of events to be THE version of events.

This board is littered with it, you know this only too well I think BC.

As to proving or disproving I am genuinely open to a different outcome than RJL but at this stage, not a great deal else makes as much sense as that particular theory.

Shrug.

And I believe you misread what your original post was reacting to, to be quite frank. Given that I began this discussion, I should address this. When I went "tinfoil" in my post after hearing others' opinions on what Rhaegar not being "lustful" might have meant (and reacted to their postulating), it was followed by the "drunk" smilie, I was indicating I had left being serious for a quick joke and was "drunk" on the idea (as it seemed the best smilie to choose to convey what I wanted from the limited number given). I don't seriously think Arthur and Rhaegar were gay for one another in the least--it was a joke designed to entertain those in the conversation, just as much as BC's "let daddy explain" and "the Tower of Joy is what he called the roach infested motel" are above to another poster.

The original intention was not to disprove R+L=J, even if I have issues with the places some people take it (that issue being the same as BC's: Jon Targaryen the First of his Name), I do hold it as the most likely outcome. That said, I was interested more in what caused Ned to speak of men having lusts as if he too were part of that category. The next phase of the discussion I wanted to move on to discussing if regardless of R+L=J what that means for Ned. I was even going to suggest that, even if R+L=J, then that means Ned himself likely has/had a bastard who's not Jon, and what that might mean, and with whom it might have happened is where I wanted to go next--and wondering what happened to the baby being the final question.

That the conversation spun off into R+L=J territory is what happened and it was a nice little conversation to get different points of view IMO. But so far only Lady Dyanna has given me something to mull over on the subject of Ned himself, which is where I was more interested in than Rhaegar to be quite honest*, since it was BC's comment about this thought being in Ned's mind that became an earworm to me in the first place. Hearing that Voice or Ravenstark take other interpretations out of this chapter was interesting, and I liked hearing what they had to say, but it's not where I wanted to end up by any means.

Having said all that, Lady Dy, I'm working on a response to you. :)

*I have admitted I'm not Rhaegar's biggest fan already, for reasons regarding how he treated Elia, which despite her Dornish heritage would have been a dick move. Sure, taking a paramour is fine, but there are better ways of doing so than humiliating your wife in front of the entire Seven Kingdoms, and further humiliating her after the birth of your son and heir. Dorne from what we can gather has a "do what you want in private, but there's only so much you can do in public" kind of liberated attitude (otherwise why can't Arianne marry Daemon?). Rhaegar humiliated his wife, Elia, publicly and for that I have beef with him, simple as that.