Heresy 172

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 172, this week’s edition of the ever lively thread which tries to take a thoughtful, often sideways and occasionally irreverent look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed here over the years since the thread first began way back in 2011. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not as a group take and hold a particular stance on issues, or even agree with each other most of the time. Instead it’s a free-flowing and above all a friendly series of open discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that the story is followed through five related story arcs, not one. Clearly the story has changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear from the synopsis that it does not simply revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s father, which appears to be very much a secondary issue, for the resolution of an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, Susannah Clarke’s Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and especially that vastly under-rated date of1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic. Be warned though that Heresy is constantly moving and evolving and that what was once regarded as important may now be exploded.

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Reposado]

The fact that Quaithe suggests Dany will find truth in Asshai indicates to me that Quithe did indeed want Dany to visit Asshai, and yet I think this is a journey that will now never take place--Dany will never visit Asshai for truth, or the Heart of Fire, or any other reason, and I don't think Quaithe will ever prompt her to do so from this point forward, because that journey is no longer compatible with the story Martin is telling.

i agree. things have changed. on that note. is there anywhere in heresy that we've listed those things from earlier books that have been clearly changed?

off hand, i can think of the facelessmen being devotees of the red god, and the position of warden being a military position and not an honorary one.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Continuing on the Craster debate-

I'm thinking of a number between everything and two and Craster is the one.

In Whitetree, in the mouth of the weirwood when the Watch stops there on their way north there are skulls in the mouth of the tree large enough to swallow a sheep. One is smaller, so probably a child's skull. And there is ashes and bits of bones and blackedness from fire. In these few paragraphs of that Jon chapter, we get reference to sheep and babies and burning the dead. And I would say sacrifice too. The villagers are feeding the weirwood their burnt offerings.

Then there is Craster, also hailing from Whitetree, sacrificing sheep and babies but to the cold instead of the weirwood. So I think he is not new to the idea of sacrificing to the gods and he grew up with this ritual. But where the sacrifice turned to the cold gods is intriguing.

I believe it is Jon who says he gives his sons to the woods. So if the Others are inhabiting the woods, then I guess this would just fit in with his practice of sating the gods.

Sheep and children are the foods of the gods.

Craster sees himself as blessed, or at least makes a show of it, but Ygritte calls him cursed. I suppose it's all in where you're standing.

[Phillip Frye]

Craster sees himself as blessed, or at least makes a show of it, but Ygritte calls him cursed. I suppose it's all in where you're standing.

Maybe Ygritte is just jealous.

[LordImp]

Im discussing the second Dance on another thread. Most think this war will be between Dany and Aegon , but i think it will be Jon vs Dany. One of the reasons i belive that is because Dany will not kill Rhaegars son , if so it must be because Dany finds out that he is false( if he is) or if Aegon moves against her , which i think he will not. Whats your touhgts on this ?

[Sly Wren]

Continuing on the Craster debate-

I'm thinking of a number between everything and two and Craster is the one.

In Whitetree, in the mouth of the weirwood when the Watch stops there on their way north there are skulls in the mouth of the tree large enough to swallow a sheep. One is smaller, so probably a child's skull. And there is ashes and bits of bones and blackedness from fire. In these few paragraphs of that Jon chapter, we get reference to sheep and babies and burning the dead. And I would say sacrifice too. The villagers are feeding the weirwood their burnt offerings.

Then there is Craster, also hailing from Whitetree, sacrificing sheep and babies but to the cold instead of the weirwood. So I think he is not new to the idea of sacrificing to the gods and he grew up with this ritual. But where the sacrifice turned to the cold gods is intriguing.

I believe it is Jon who says he gives his sons to the woods. So if the Others are inhabiting the woods, then I guess this would just fit in with his practice of sating the gods.

Sheep and children are the foods of the gods.

Craster sees himself as blessed, or at least makes a show of it, but Ygritte calls him cursed. I suppose it's all in where you're standing.

Agreed that he sees himself as blessed vs. Ygritte and others, though they call him cursed, not evil--curious.

But your point about sacrificing to the cold vs. the weirwood--this is where I think I need Wolfmaid (no offense--she's just a lot better on mythology than I am). I can think of multiple cultures making different kinds of sacrifices for fertility for trees, crops, animals, people. I can even think of sacrifices to gods of children because the "gods" demand it. But the shift from sacrificing to weirwoods to flat out giving babies to the cold--I'm no anthropologist, but I can't think of a culture that's made that shift. Please correct me if I'm an idiot.

Am wondering if the weirwood with the screaming face might be a hint--if Craster is from Whitetree, did something happen there? Did it force/encourage a shift? To increase the sacrifices? Am again thinking of the emaciated Moai on Easter Island--the figures became gaunt and terrifying during a famine. Could Craster's mother have had something to do with the shift to sacrifice (presuming it was a shift)--or her family? And that's where he learned it?

A very long list of questions with no real way to answer them. But it does seem like he's got the same sickness of most fanatics, IE: Mel. Sees himself as blessed despite the horrors around him. Just as Mel sees herself as blessed--and bleed smoking black blood. Which is why I suspect the shift is localized, not a long-lost tradition of the North.

[Sly Wren]

Maybe Ygritte is just jealous.

Of Craster? Of his wives? Or of Craster's access to his wives?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Im discussing the second Dance on another thread. Most think this war will be between Dany and Aegon , but i think it will be Jon vs Dany. One of the reasons i belive that is because Dany will not kill Rhaegars son , if so it must be because Dany finds out that he is false( if he is) or if Aegon moves against her , which i think he will not. Whats your touhgts on this ?

I see no special reason why would Jon ever be part of the second Dance at least no more than Patchface. He is a son of the North, a black brother. He deserted, it is true, but still a son of the North.

[LordImp]

I see no special reason why would Jon ever be part of the second Dance at least no more than Patchface. He is a son of the North, a black brother. He deserted, it is true, but still a son of the North.

Yeah , but i belive the Dance will be between North and Dany. And their Jon comes in.

[Phillip Frye]

Of Craster? Of his wives? Or of Craster's access to his wives?

Not everyone can get chosen by the gods.

[Voice]

Continuing on the Craster debate-

I'm thinking of a number between everything and two and Craster is the one.

In Whitetree, in the mouth of the weirwood when the Watch stops there on their way north there are skulls in the mouth of the tree large enough to swallow a sheep. One is smaller, so probably a child's skull. And there is ashes and bits of bones and blackedness from fire. In these few paragraphs of that Jon chapter, we get reference to sheep and babies and burning the dead. And I would say sacrifice too. The villagers are feeding the weirwood their burnt offerings.

Then there is Craster, also hailing from Whitetree, sacrificing sheep and babies but to the cold instead of the weirwood. So I think he is not new to the idea of sacrificing to the gods and he grew up with this ritual. But where the sacrifice turned to the cold gods is intriguing.

I believe it is Jon who says he gives his sons to the woods. So if the Others are inhabiting the woods, then I guess this would just fit in with his practice of sating the gods.

Sheep and children are the foods of the gods.

Craster sees himself as blessed, or at least makes a show of it, but Ygritte calls him cursed. I suppose it's all in where you're standing.

Yup. Craster, the keeper of the arcane red herring, isn't all that special.

Bran IV AGOT

"Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks."

Craster is a swineherd.

I was hoping you were going to go a step further, Flagons, and say the bones found in the mouth of Whitetree's weirwood were actually the bones of Craster's sons that the villagers had to burn because they had risen and haunted as kinder-wights... :devil:

I see no special reason why would Jon ever be part of the second Dance at least no more than Patchface. He is a son of the North, a black brother. He deserted, it is true, but still a son of the North.

A son of the North, yes, but I think he's also a son of the South. He is the civil war of the heart, incarnate.

Not everyone can get chosen by the gods.

Considering sheep are just as acceptable as sons, I wouldn't say "the gods" are the "choosiest" of connoisseurs.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Agreed that he sees himself as blessed vs. Ygritte and others, though they call him cursed, not evil--curious.

But your point about sacrificing to the cold vs. the weirwood--this is where I think I need Wolfmaid (no offense--she's just a lot better on mythology than I am). I can think of multiple cultures making different kinds of sacrifices for fertility for trees, crops, animals, people. I can even think of sacrifices to gods of children because the "gods" demand it. But the shift from sacrificing to weirwoods to flat out giving babies to the cold--I'm no anthropologist, but I can't think of a culture that's made that shift. Please correct me if I'm an idiot.

Am wondering if the weirwood with the screaming face might be a hint--if Craster is from Whitetree, did something happen there? Did it force/encourage a shift? To increase the sacrifices? Am again thinking of the emaciated Moai on Easter Island--the figures became gaunt and terrifying during a famine. Could Craster's mother have had something to do with the shift to sacrifice (presuming it was a shift)--or her family? And that's where he learned it?

A very long list of questions with no real way to answer them. But it does seem like he's got the same sickness of most fanatics, IE: Mel. Sees himself as blessed despite the horrors around him. Just as Mel sees herself as blessed--and bleed smoking black blood. Which is why I suspect the shift is localized, not a long-lost tradition of the North.

I'm no mythology buff myself. I've read a good bit in the past but most of the details are gone.

I do think Craster is leaving the boys for the cold ones. He is the priest of his household. Or hovelhold. Heh. He makes the decisions how to worship and the wives have to conform and perform by popping out sons for the sacrifices.

For all I know, Craster met an Other in the woods and begged for mercy while offering his sons as payment for his own life. :dunno:

I mean, he isn't fleeing with the rest of the free folk and thinks he will be alright throughout the winter.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yup. Craster, the keeper of the arcane red herring, isn't all that special.

Bran IV AGOT

"Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks."

Craster is a swineherd.

I was hoping you were going to go a step further, Flagons, and say the bones found in the mouth of Whitetree's weirwood were actually the bones of Craster's sons that the villagers had to burn because they had risen and haunted as kinder-wights... :devil:

A son of the North, yes, but I think he's also a son of the South. He is the civil war of the heart, incarnate.

Considering sheep are just as acceptable as sons, I wouldn't say "the gods" are the "choosiest" of connoisseurs.

Not going there. Heh. Whitetree is too far away from Craster's. And Craster is a sheepherd. Or he was until he gave up all his sheep. Maybe the sheep go to the Others pet spiders.

I think the sons are used for magic. I know there is a debate over blood magic and only death can pay for life etc., but we have seen Mel take part of Stannis' animus/essence/life to create shadow men and MMD use blood to call forth the old powers and dance with the shadows. Craster's sons have a purpose, I say.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Maybe Ygritte is just jealous.

Right on.

[Sly Wren]

Yeah , but i belive the Dance will be between North and Dany. And their Jon comes in.

For me, at least, it depends on how you define "dance." Replay of the Targaryen civil war? Can't see that--the Long Night is coming. Really think the wights and the walkers are getting past that Wall somehow. Dany shows up to claim throne, she's got to help save the throne (and all it represents) first. Hard to see a fight between them once a good percentage of people realizing what's actually coming from the north.

Or were you referencing a fight after they deal with the impending Long Night? Something else entirely?

[Sly Wren]

Yup. Craster, the keeper of the arcane red herring, isn't all that special.

Bran IV AGOT

"Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks."

Craster is a swineherd.

He can be all of those things and still be onto something re: the walkers. He doesn't have to be good, smart, helpful, or anything else--he is the only one we hear of who bears a curse, sacrifices children (and sheep) to the cold gods, and maintains safety in his horrible keep. Not saying he's figured it all out. Not saying he's "right." But he ain't entirely wrong either--re: the cold gods.

[Matthew.]

i agree. things have changed. on that note. is there anywhere in heresy that we've listed those things from earlier books that have been clearly changed?

GRRM tends to keep things ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell where, specifically, he has changed his mind. Broadly, we know he had to have abandoned some ideas (and created new ones) when he decided not to do the five year skip.

Here's one thing that I can't prove, but I'm almost certain is true: Bloodraven didn't exist in GRRM's head when he wrote aGoT. He may have had some vague notion of a greenseer who would eventually train Bran, but I don't think that Greenseer was a half-Blackwood, half-Targaryen character that, among other things, had served as a Hand to the King.

[Sly Wren]

I'm no mythology buff myself. I've read a good bit in the past but most of the details are gone.

I do think Craster is leaving the boys for the cold ones. He is the priest of his household. Or hovelhold. Heh. He makes the decisions how to worship and the wives have to conform and perform by popping out sons for the sacrifices.

For all I know, Craster met an Other in the woods and begged for mercy while offering his sons as payment for his own life. :dunno:

I mean, he isn't fleeing with the rest of the free folk and thinks he will be alright throughout the winter.

Agreed--I've no idea how he came up with this "system"--but it does seem different than the rest. The sheep baffle me a bit--no one says anything about the sheep coming back for other members of their flock (weirdest version of Mary had a little lamb ever)--am wondering if they don't really work as well as kids--the cold winds are rising.

Not going there. Heh. Whitetree is too far away from Craster's. And Craster is a sheepherd. Or he was until he gave up all his sheep. Maybe the sheep go to the Others pet spiders.

I think the sons are used for magic. I know there is a debate over blood magic and only death can pay for life etc., but we have seen Mel take part of Stannis' animus/essence/life to create shadow men and MMD use blood to call forth the old powers and dance with the shadows. Craster's sons have a purpose, I say.

Yup!

Not everyone can get chosen by the gods.

Well, at least she's kissed by fire.

[Matthew.]

Just an addition to the Septa Lemore discussion from the previous thread:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Myriad_of_Questions/

__________
6) How old is Howland Reed?

He'd be in his thirties.

7) And how would have been Ashara Dayne?

Ditto.

__________


Tyrion describes Septa Lamore as "past forty." For context, this SSM was written when GRRM was already working on AFFC/ADWD. It's not exactly damning evidence against Ashara being Lemore, since it's just Tyrion's subjective judgment, but taken with the fact that he never observes her striking eyes... :dunno: