Heresy 172

[Black Crow]

i don't think he would change jon's parentage but i think the reaction to it will change. at this point, i would expect jon to say something, like "i dont care who gave birth to me" ned stark is my father. and he doesn't get a dragon. whereas the original plan likely did call for a dragon for jon

I think that's the point of the decree by Robb legitimising him. He can't by anybody's laws be the son of Eddard Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen at one and the same time. He gets to choose and if the question does arise I really don't see his answer as being in doubt.

[Black Crow]

.GRRM doesn't give away his biggest intrigues in books 2 & 3 of a 9 book series!!!

Who's giving anything away? We still don't know why he's doing it and how his infant sons come back as demons made of snow and ice and cold.*

* © Stannis Baratheon

[Black Crow]

I don't think he would change jon's parentage but i think the reaction to it will change. at this point, i would expect Jon to say something, like "i don't care who gave birth to me" Ned Stark is my father. and he doesn't get a dragon. whereas the original plan likely did call for a dragon for Jon

Just to return to the last bit. That isn't necessary so. Here's GRRM again in the synopsis:

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

As I said earlier, he knows what he wants to achieve but not how he's going to get there, which is where a lot of the gardening stuff comes in. Rather than having an "original plan" I think its more likely that he's considered a variety of options, and may well have changed his mind a few times cos after all it aint over until the fat lady sings.

[Matthew.]

GRRM doesn't give away his biggest intrigues in books 2 & 3 of a 9 book series!!!

Considering that he spent much of the writing process of aCoK thinking that he was writing book 2 of a 4 book series (grown from a trilogy), I don't see why it can't contain some minor revelations about the Others.

Indeed, your own theory relies heavily on GRRM giving away many of his clues throughout aGoT--the Stark's icy hell, Eddard's dream of kings with eyes of ice. Much of what we know (or think we know) about both the lore of the world and Robert's Rebellion comes from aGoT.

[Reposado]

Just to return to the last bit. That isn't necessary so. Here's GRRM again in the synopsis:

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

As I said earlier, he knows what he wants to achieve but not how he's going to get there, which is where a lot of the gardening stuff comes in. Rather than having an "original plan" I think its more likely that he's considered a variety of options, and may well have changed his mind a few times cos after all it aint over until the fat lady sings.

very true. say, "leading option in his mind" rather than "original plan"

as far as dragon riders, i think we can pretty confidently guess that two will be dany and tyrion. i wouldnt be surprised if the third is someone he hadnt conceived of while writing acok

[wolfmaid7]

If Craster's Sons supposedly return as Others... Then the sheep would too & we have seen nothing of the sort...

Eventhough i don't believe Craster's sons are the wws. I think it important to atleast mention of those who believe they are ,that some form or blood magic is being used to create the wws.

Good question. I would say so and as Wolfmaid and I are agreed Vinculus is superb.

However a fair warning to all. The magic of the Raven King has pretty well been lost and the ending a big disappointment

Really? Noooo!

[Sly Wren]

The Sheep are the big clue that everything is not as it seems in the North... Craster is GRRM's version of David Koresh (a cult leader who's story was playing out on TV while GRRM was writing ACOKs & ASOSs). We will eventually learn that Craster had no relationship whatsoever with the Others, all of his sacrifices, sheep & sons alike were given to the weirwoods...GRRM doesn't give away his biggest intrigues in books 2 & 3 of a 9 book series!!!

I agree the sheep may be a clue--but seem more likely to be that Craster's understanding isn't perfect. He's on to something re: the cold gods, but doesn't have it all figured out. Hence the sheep. And I agree that Craster definitely has a David Koresh vibe--he's right with the gods, the creepy incest/polygamy angle. But his craziness doesn't mean he's entirely wrong.

And Martin isn't giving his secret away--we still don't know how it all works. All we have is one piece in a big puzzle.

If Craster's Sons supposedly return as Others... Then the sheep would too & we have seen nothing of the sort...

Can't see why the sheep couldn't just die--not sure what happens to the sheep. But can't see why the sons' returning has to equal returning sheep. Though if the Others show up riding wooly sheep zombies--gotta admit, I might not mind. :)

[Lord Ravenstark]

very true. say, "leading option in his mind" rather than "original plan"

as far as dragon riders, i think we can pretty confidently guess that two will be dany and tyrion. i wouldnt be surprised if the third is someone he hadnt conceived of while writing acok

I would far more prefer to see our two little crows, who were promised the gift of flying, dragonriding than tyrion.

[Sly Wren]

So... It's late and I think I might have entirely lost what little is left of my mind, but...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132186-the-true-identity-of-jaqen-hghar-possible-series-level-spoilers/#entry7154534

For some reason the above mentioned post about Rhaegar somehow being alive is resonating with me. Might be an interesting parallel to Lyanna still being around and connected to the weirnet in some way. Or not...

I read the theory--it is fun. But I can't see how or why it could work. A lot of people seem to have seen Rhaegar die--and then scrambled for the rubies. . . . But I believe Voice has a theory of Lyanna's being connected to a weirwood in Winterfell . . .

[Sly Wren]

GRRM has said their will be a second Dance , i dont have the exact quote but it's out their. But we dont know the second dance will be a exact civil war as the last one .

Yes--I just struggle to see a civil war between Jon and Dany. The Others and wights, with or without ice spiders, seem like a looming problem. Could maybe see a dance between Dany and Aegon--I don't have a good feeling about Aegon's survival. Death by Dany seems feasible. Could see that happening a bit in the south before Dany has to turn north to help with the Others.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I agree the sheep may be a clue--but seem more likely to be that Craster's understanding isn't perfect. He's on to something re: the cold gods, but doesn't have it all figured out. Hence the sheep. And I agree that Craster definitely has a David Koresh vibe--he's right with the gods, the creepy incest/polygamy angle. But his craziness doesn't mean he's entirely wrong.

And Martin isn't giving his secret away--we still don't know how it all works. All we have is one piece in a big puzzle.

Can't see why the sheep couldn't just die--not sure what happens to the sheep. But can't see why the sons' returning has to equal returning sheep. Though if the Others show up riding wooly sheep zombies--gotta admit, I might not mind. :)

Aren't unicorns supposed to look caprines? Ice sídhe/sìth riding unicorns. Can't get more celtic than that. Have you ever seen the map of Westeros and that British isle? Makes complete sense! :eek:

[Lord Ravenstark]

Yes--I just struggle to see a civil war between Jon and Dany. The Others and wights, with or without ice spiders, seem like a looming problem. Could maybe see a dance between Dany and Aegon--I don't have a good feeling about Aegon's survival. Death by Dany seems feasible. Could see that happening a bit in the south before Dany has to turn north to help with the Others.

That would be really sad for Westeros. Aegon looks a far better ruler than Dany.

[WhitewolfStark]

Aren't unicorns supposed to look caprines? Ice sídhe/sìth riding unicorns. Can't get more celtic than that. Have you ever seen the map of Westeros and that British isle? Makes complete sense! :eek:

This reminded me of the "Wild Hunt" myths that exist... and suddenly there's a framework to view what the Others are doing... they're leading a Wild Hunt. So the Others should have this for theme music then? :cool4:

[nanother]

I agree the sheep may be a clue--but seem more likely to be that Craster's understanding isn't perfect. He's on to something re: the cold gods, but doesn't have it all figured out. Hence the sheep. And I agree that Craster definitely has a David Koresh vibe--he's right with the gods, the creepy incest/polygamy angle. But his craziness doesn't mean he's entirely wrong.

And Martin isn't giving his secret away--we still don't know how it all works. All we have is one piece in a big puzzle.

Can't see why the sheep couldn't just die--not sure what happens to the sheep. But can't see why the sons' returning has to equal returning sheep. Though if the Others show up riding wooly sheep zombies--gotta admit, I might not mind. :)

The sheep become the ice spiders we're yet to see but featuring heavily in tales/legends :p

[WhitewolfStark]

That would be really sad for Westeros. Aegon looks a far better ruler than Dany.

Might it be that we have a reversal of the last Dance, where the male won, but the female line continued on the throne? Perhaps Aegon marries and gets his wife pregnant, and Dany fearing that she's barren keeps Aegon's wife and child close and declares it her heir?

Just a thought that popped into my head.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I agree, with only a few caveats.

Of paramount concern is that Craster also kept pigs, so he qualifies as a swineherd in addition to shepherd... ;)

Mayhaps less importantly, I do not equate Craster himself, nor his wives, with the purpose for which their sons are being used. I think any infant would work for whatever machinations they are being used. It may be that male infants, specifically, are required for this purpose, but Craster's Keep isn't the best indicator as he marries the daughters. I don't think there's anything significant about Craster himself, which is why I tend to view his daughter-wives' captivity as unjustifiable.

While I also believe they are being used for magic, I think the show has connected them to magic in a very unrealistic fashion (how would a newborn baby survive a trek to the frozen north in the arms of a being cold enough to shatter steel? ...etc). As wolfmaid would often point out, we've seen but two white walkers in the entire series, sers Crackles and Puddles, and neither of them were collecting infants. The one time the blue eyed lot approached one of Craster's sons (in the canon) it was in the form of wights. And while Gilly assumed they were after Monster, we've no pressing reason to trust her assessment of the situation.

To the 'death paying for life' list, we should also add Rhaego, who helped hatch Dany's dragons. This, I think, is closer to what is happening with infants abandoned to the cold. There's no way a newborn will live for long abandoned and exposed. So unless the blue-eyed lot have a warm kangaroo pouch hidden under that awesome reflective armor, I think we can expect something more nuanced than the changelings in the mummer's farce.

And regarding Whitetree, I'm not sure kinder-wights mind long walks, but oh well. In any case, the bones in the weirwood's mouth there, moon tea abortions, and Old Nan's tale (in addition to Craster's form of family-planning), all seem to suggest that infanticide is rather common in ASOIAF.

I hear ya. I'd only point out that he never names the Others as his gods, nor do his wives. And he never implies that he keeps right with his gods by offering them his sons. Unlike the mummer's farce, walkers are never seen collecting his sons in the books, nor any children at all for that matter. And if they did, how would they not freeze to death?

Something else is afoot.

Considering all we have seen of Craster is that he leaves his male offspring in the woods to die from exposure, I think it requires too many assumptions to place him in a pivotal role in the North.

Unless Ashara has aged incredibly poorly, Lemore certainly seems rather unlike the most beautiful woman in living memory.

Okay, he is a swineherd too. What's this about only seeing two white walkers? There were more than two in the prologue. How many there were for sure I don't know cuz Will stopped counting.

Anyway. I agree on the mummer's version, which I do not watch. I don't know exactly what happens with sons, but Craster's got a system that seems to work for him. We never got a chance to see if it worked since Sam left the keep and the cold ones followed without GRRM giving us a peek at Craster's place. It is strange that we never see any wightified young'urns.

I can't recall that Craster makes mention of any specific gods. Do he? Just that he is right by the gods and a godly man.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I'm inclined to disagree. Mormont comments at one point that he always wondered why the Wildlings burned their dead, having just realised that it was to stop them rising as wights, or at least that was the reason for what to that point had been no more than a tradition. The bones in the tree were certainly an offering to the gods but not necessarily sacrificed to them. That may simply have been what they normally did with the ashes. Craster on the other hand is not doing that at all but rather giving them to the "cold gods, the ones who come in the night". I still hold that ultimately the walkers are the unchancy servants of the old gods, but its a very different process and purpose.

You have a point with the sacrifice vs offering. What gets me is the tree is "blackened by fire" not blackened by ashes or something like that. It sounds like the bodies are burned in the tree. Lol.

Jon and/or Mormont says he is giving them to the woods, but the white walkers walk the woods. And Craster is a godly man who acknowledges guest right and expects it of others. :)

[addicted to snow]

You have a point with the sacrifice vs offering. What gets me is the tree is "blackened by fire" not blackened by ashes or something like that. It sounds like the bodies are burned in the tree. Lol.

Jon and/or Mormont says he is giving them to the woods, but the white walkers walk the woods. And Craster is a godly man who acknowledges guest right and expects it of others. :)

good points...

[Sly Wren]

While that seems straightforward its not, because such an identification is not an end in itself. What matters is how its going to affect the outcome. The popular money in a lot of quarters is on Jon Targaryen First of his Name etc etc; but GRRM himself doesn't seem so sure. The only reference to the question in the synopsis in the OP was the removal of a barrier to Jon getting inside Arya's knickers. Danaerys is the one who has to rally the kingdom against the horror from the North. And then there are the obstacles appearing; there's that decree of legitimacy naming Jon as the lawful son of Eddard Stark. He can't be both Jon Targaryen and Jon Stark. He alone must choose. And then conversely there's Aerys' naming Viserys as his heir ahead of Rhaegar's progeny.

R+L=J may not be up for negotiation but the ways he can play it are a different matter.

don't think he would change jon's parentage but i think the reaction to it will change. at this point, i would expect jon to say something, like "i dont care who gave birth to me" ned stark is my father. and he doesn't get a dragon. whereas the original plan likely did call for a dragon for jon

Am very much hoping you both are right re: Jon's choosing who he is. I think you are right, but if not, am not sure I could bear the series ending in a long, drawn out legal battle on who has the "right" to the throne, who is or is not disinherited, people waking documents around--please, no. Let's have Jon just choose, please. If allowed to do so, can't see why on earth he'd choose to be anything other than a Stark.

[Sly Wren]

Additionally, The Princess and the Queen talks about how the Northmen fighting for Rhaenyra Targaryan had a habit of arranging the corpses of their enemies into grotesque scenes like a feast. Eventually, Aegon II's troops stopped paying attention to these arrangements, and were then caught off guard when it turned out one of them was a trap and the "corpses" appeared to spring to life because they were actually Northern soldiers who'd been playing dead. It's very hard to read the passage about this and not thing of wights rising, which again makes me wonder about the implications of a Second Dance.

Yes--the bolded does sound a bit like symbolic wights. But if wights show up in the second dance, could see them as convincing the humans to give up fighting each other and focus on surviving first.