Astronomy of Ice and Fire: Black Hole Moon

[oursisthefury69]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132372-jon-and-psalms-coincide/

Incredibly interesting stuff, make sure to look onto page 2 as well for an additional example

[vuk]

Thanks! I saw this story unfold in my mind's eye soon after I got acquainted with your BSE=AA theory. Perhaps it was your forum name that gave me the idea that the villain must have "fallen" rather than being born evil. :) He may have wanted a heroic reputation, after all, as evidenced by his myth.

I wonder why this tiger-woman reminds me of a certain lioness in another age and on another continent... :P

Still, I think the BSE's Nissa Nissa was the Amethyst Empress. The dark sacrifice was the sin, the betrayal. I'm saying this because I have a problem with the idea that it's a kind of self-sacrifice when you kill another person, no matter how close you are. It seems to me that if LmL's theory is correct, then we just have to accept that our sources do not tell us exactly what happened. If the BSE killed the AE with Lightbringer and it started the Long Night, then LB wasn't forged to end the Long Night. Or, maybe the Long Night started first, then LB was forged using the meteor / black stone, and only then was the AE killed, but then this is not exactly what the legend of the GEotD says.

Now, on the one hand, we have the words of a chronicle, which must be full of mistakes but is still the in-universe equivalent of a historian's work, so it is supposed to describe what really happened, a specific story. On the other hand, we have the myth of Azor Ahai. A myth doesn't tell us a specific story, but something generalized that all listeners are supposed to relate to and understand. (This is, of course, based on Aristotle's comparison of history and poetry.) I would guess that in this case, the myth is a "bard's truth", which is different from yours or mine (as Ygritte would say), and different from the historian's account, but it is still true at a different level.

Yes, I agree and am trying to find a back up in LmL's story, in cosmic event first of all. If we talk about Azor Ahai, we must have a moment of forging Lightbringer. There's no AA without LB and reverse as there's no LB without forging, which means there's no AA without forging. Now, if the Forging was a cause of the Long Night and not the consequence, that changes the story a lot. Than the cosmic event is not interpreted the same way on the ground, because comet wasn't part of "Fire moon's body". Those are two different materials as LmL sais - black stone of moon and pale stone of comet. If the comet is LB, hitting the Fire Moon-NN, than is logical the part of the comet that has fallen on Planetos is the essential part of Lightbringer (Dawn). And if LB was made of black stone than that isn't LB by God's means. Some other sword, utterly evil and deadly probably, if there's one like that, because there's no text support from GRRM about this huge stuff. Existence of that kind of sword would be to important to miss. Except it was "LB" all the time, having been mentioned all the time, forged wrong by men (BSE loving his sister and that's wrong incestous like the black stone he worshiped.. hmm.. GEoTD was at the lowest point since the begining, sins are spreading across the Empire.. the best wishes, murder for "the Cause" and restorting order and golden age..) which caused imbalance and Long Night. He forged LB (unknowingly) by killing woman he loved (his sister AE/NN) because he wanted to make good. Wrong forging, yes that could explain everything. Well done, it took me some time to really understand. :-)

[evita mgfs]

Some really great points, Brans final POV is amongst my favorite chapters in the whole series (and its probably before the midpoint if anything, I wonder how many chapters Bran even has left). The poetic language being heightened/instilled as soon as they're among those who sing the song of earth is an excellent pick-up, and there's certainly multiple levels of significance to the repetition of the moon phases.

Between this and the thread touching on the connection between Jon and the Psalms (not sure off the top of m head who wrote it, all the credit off course goes to them if anybody knows what im referencing) there's been some really cool, extremely subtle things people have been picking up on lately

Thank you - what a lovely response. Please check out my thread:

Bran’s Growing Powers after his Final POV in ADwD

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132143-brans-growing-powers-after-his-final-pov-in-adwd/

I am tracing Bran's presence in multiple ways, and some of my discussion involves Bran divinely inspiring Theon. Martin's cleverly worded language indicates how Bran telepathically guides Theon: Theon's feet take him to the godswood, and he is surprised to end up there since the old gods are not his gods. Bran prompts Theon to ask Lady Dustin why she hates the Starks - Theon "hears himself" speak when he does not intend to do so. But the aspect I discovered that I am most proud of is that Bran "molds" Theon to be the Knight that Bran cannot. I have lots of evidences, but the most obvious act of chivalry Theon demonstrates is risking his life to save the damsel in distress.

[evita mgfs]

Yes, I agree and am trying to find a back up in LmL's story, in cosmic event first of all. If we talk about Azor Ahai, we must have a moment of forging Lightbringer. There's no AA without LB and reverse as there's no LB without forging, which means there's no AA without forging. Now, if the Forging was a cause of the Long Night and not the consequence, that changes the story a lot. Than the cosmic event is not interpreted the same way on the ground, because comet wasn't part of "Fire moon's body". Those are two different materials as LmL sais - black stone of moon and pale stone of comet. If the comet is LB, hitting the Fire Moon-NN, than is logical the part of the comet that has fallen on Planetos is the essential part of Lightbringer (Dawn). And if LB was made of black stone than that isn't LB by God's means. Some other sword, utterly evil and deadly probably, if there's one like that, because there's no text support from GRRM about this huge stuff. Existence of that kind of sword would be to important to miss. Except it was "LB" all the time, having been mentioned all the time, forged wrong by men (BSE loving his sister and that's wrong incestous like the black stone he worshiped.. hmm.. GEoTD was at the lowest point since the begining, sins are spreading across the Empire.. the best wishes, murder for "the Cause" and restorting order and golden age..) which caused imbalance and Long Night. He forged LB (unknowingly) by killing woman he loved (his sister AE/NN) because he wanted to make good. Wrong forging, yes that could explain everything. Well done, it took me some time to really understand. :-)

Good ideas!

Hey, this is an angle I have been exploring - sort of. In thinking of the big picture, the world of men have been consistently violating the laws of hospitality, in more ways than Martin has made crystal clear to his readers.

The forces of the old gods are responsible for punishing these offenses in very karmic ways.

Winterfell is somehow representative of the consequences for breaking these laws, and the Starks are somehow part of this.

The posture of the statues in the crypts are on alert, sword across their laps, a position that indicates those unwelcome guests best not misbehave while there is a Stark in Winterfell.

[oursisthefury69]

So it seems like 2 things that're somewhat in contradiction would be the forging of Lightbringer (if done through the murder of the amthesyt Empress) would (in this scenario) now be both the cause of the LN, as well as what ultimately helps conquer the Long Night. Then within that, we also have somewhat contradicting stories of the killing, as the Bloodstone Emperors killing of his sister for personal gain doesn't really equate to Nissa Nissa bearing her breast for Azor Ahai's sacrifice.

[evita mgfs]

evita mgfs:

​Nope, not at all. You've put your finger right on it. I could show you my first draft that I typed in a mad fit of staying up all night creativity - it has the seeds for every essay I have written, plus several more I am still trying to get to. I had about a week of lightning insight, which is basically 90% of my entire theory... I'm actually really surprised at how much of it has held up. I was making intuitive leaps basedon only a few passages back then, and since then I have found many, many more examples to back up my basic premises, many of them more clear any easy to follow that the ones I found first.

I'm working through your comments here but I wanted to say that really quick. :thumbsup:

Now, I have written essays about the laws of hospitality and guest right that may advance some theories and ideas we are touching on here.

Also, I have lots of notes breaking down Bran's presence in WF's godswood during the blasphemous marriage in "The Prince of Winterfell" - candles, mists, etc.

As I said, my ideas and evidences may have value to the scope of your excellent essays. You may see the astronomical aspects through metaphor in what I may be analyzing from a totally different vantage point.

Would you be interested in my laws of hospitality / guest rite essays? And my observations about Bran transforming the godswood?

Here is a snippet from an essay I am working on presently, as yet unfinished, but I have gathered notes and evidences singling out unnatural phenomena that occurs in Theon’s POVs following Bran’s last POV in ADwD. [My son said I should compare Bran to Steven Hawking, especially after I tried to explain to him your theories about astronomy, black holes, and such!]

Winterfell’s Godswood during the Wedding and Gatsby’s Parties during Nick Carraway’s Visit

Gatsby regularly “dispenses starlight to stray moths” by hosting splendid, expensive parties in an effort to recapture his past by luring Daisy’s attendance. “People were not invited – they went there . . . after that they conducted themselves according to the rules of behavior associated with amusement parks” (41). Most depart having never met their Host while Nick makes it a mission to meet the enigmatic Gatsby who watches his staging and those upon it from a distance.

Owl-Eyes says, “This fella’s a regular Belasco” (46), a gifted theatrical producer. Like Belasco, Gatsby mounts an extravagant event that is an illusion, a magic trick, just as he is and the dream he chases. The Great “Jay” Gatsby is a magician who casts spells that eventually turn to dust.

The Great Greenseer Bran is a magician who sets his theatrical production in the WF godswood, hosting a wedding party for uninvited guests.

LUCIFER: When Ser Walton and I get our reread started, we invite you to join us - and anyone else posting here. We are tracing the "blood" - and Ser Walton will be contributing how the blood - and more - touch upon and augment your theories here and elsewhere.

Our reread, in truth, is inspired by YOU! :bowdown:

[evita mgfs]

I am throwing out - into the mix - Arya's Needle forged by Mikken at Winterfell. According to SSM #93, Arya will use Needle against the Others.

My ideas: Even though Needle is not Valyrian steel, apparently - because it is created at WF - or perhaps because Jon gives it as a gift to his little sister, Needle is more powerful magically than Martin reveals in the books thus far.

[oursisthefury69]

Now, I have written essays about the laws of hospitality and guest right that may advance some theories and ideas we are touching on here.

Also, I have lots of notes breaking down Bran's presence in WF's godswood during the blasphemous marriage in "The Prince of Winterfell" - candles, mists, etc.

As I said, my ideas and evidences may have value to the scope of your excellent essays. You may see the astronomical aspects through metaphor in what I may be analyzing from a totally different vantage point.

Would you be interested in my laws of hospitality / guest rite essays? And my observations about Bran transforming the godswood?

Here is a snippet from an essay I am working on presently, as yet unfinished, but I have gathered notes and evidences singling out unnatural phenomena that occurs in Theon’s POVs following Bran’s last POV in ADwD. [My son said I should compare Bran to Steven Hawking, especially after I tried to explain to him your theories about astronomy, black holes, and such!]

Winterfell’s Godswood during the Wedding and Gatsby’s Parties during Nick Carraway’s Visit

Gatsby regularly “dispenses starlight to stray moths” by hosting splendid, expensive parties in an effort to recapture his past by luring Daisy’s attendance. “People were not invited – they went there . . . after that they conducted themselves according to the rules of behavior associated with amusement parks” (41). Most depart having never met their Host while Nick makes it a mission to meet the enigmatic Gatsby who watches his staging and those upon it from a distance.

Owl-Eyes says, “This fella’s a regular Belasco” (46), a gifted theatrical producer. Like Belasco, Gatsby mounts an extravagant event that is an illusion, a magic trick, just as he is and the dream he chases. The Great “Jay” Gatsby is a magician who casts spells that eventually turn to dust.

The Great Greenseer Bran is a magician who sets his theatrical production in the WF godswood, hosting a wedding party for uninvited guests.

LUCIFER: When Ser Walton and I get our reread started, we invite you to join us - and anyone else posting here. We are tracing the "blood" - and Ser Walton will be contributing how the blood - and more - touch upon and augment your theories here and elsewhere.

Our reread, in truth, is inspired by YOU! :bowdown:

Bran definitely is impacting events, especially with Theon behind the scenes after his last chapter, thats not debatable and your absolutely right about that.

I think your somewhat off though concerning Bran influencing the whole eery feel of the wedding in the godswood however. While I dont discount Brans potential for having witnessed the event through the trees, I feel pretty confidently that the strangeness of the godswood, as well as other aspects of Winterfell in ADWD is the result of their no longer being a Stark in Winterfell/ the dragon beneath Winterfell leaving the day Bran and Rickon did. I'd have to look back into the language of that chapter and other Theon ones in Winterfell, but I believe all these strange mists and such are the result of something other than Bran making it intentionally creepy. TWOIAF implied A dragon sleeps beneath Winterfell warming the castle, then at the end of Clash in the last chapter (terribly underdiscussed topic) Summer sees a dragon over Winterfell, and then come book 5 the hot springs aren't working the same

[LmL]

Oursisthefury69, I have spent a bit of time thinking about the "Winteffell dragon." I have never noticed the hot springs working differently - I thought they were warm and misty during the wedding, as they should be... Do you have a quote for this? That woul be interesting indeed.

Evita I have never thought about Bran doing more than whispering Theon's name, but I will certainly take a look at your thinking on this. There is a lot more telepathy going on in the story than people realize... Martin is VERY good at slipping in the supernatural in a way that allows people to sort of overlook it if they want to. But the connection between animal and skinchanger is totally, totally telepathic, and Bran is basically doing very effective astral projection... There's no reason why he couldn't take a more active role, necessarily, so I'm a curious to see what you have found. I'll take a look. The mythology thread has been taking up my time this weekend, that one is breathing fire a bit. I knew it would be a hot topic...

[LmL]

So it seems like 2 things that're somewhat in contradiction would be the forging of Lightbringer (if done through the murder of the amthesyt Empress) would (in this scenario) now be both the cause of the LN, as well as what ultimately helps conquer the Long Night. Then within that, we also have somewhat contradicting stories of the killing, as the Bloodstone Emperors killing of his sister for personal gain doesn't really equate to Nissa Nissa bearing her breast for Azor Ahai's sacrifice.

Indeed. The way I see this:

Nissa Nissa never neared her breast willingly. That's just wrong. Basically, when you make the astronomy events the master template, it dictates that Azor Ahai murdered and betrayed his wife, and this caused the Long Night. This is at odds with the interpretation of the AA myth that the red priests give us, but when you compare AA's story to that of the Bloodstone Emperor, then it begins to fit. It WAS a murder and a usurpation, just as the astronomy indicates. The BSE took the power of the murdering Nissa moon by making a sword from the black stone, and probably using the black stone to enable his dark sorcery - necromancy, specifically.

When we step back from the AA myth and consider what is really happening, I think out common sense agrees with the astronomy. Dude stabbed his wife to make a magic sword? What kind of evil mother fucker was that? I think Martin is tricking us here, seeing if our willingness to cast aside realism because (it's a fantasy novel) will enable us to swallow the notion that heroic weapons of light can forged by murdering people. I don't buy, and never have, even long before I found the astronomy pattern which indicates the same.

The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai was magical Hitter, and he murdered the Amethyst Empress, Nissa Nissa.

That's my theory, anyway. What I think happened ultimately is that he was defeated in Westeros, and it seems someone, perhaps his son, took up the sword and became the LH. Think about Lightbringer as a deadly weapon of fire magic. It represents a polar extreme, and it's heavenly fire which really should not be on the earth. What do you do with a sword like that? Well, you use it to counteract the same - an extreme, polar opposite magic - deadly ice magic. I think this fits the themes of the book pretty well - after all, this is more or less the path the dragons take. Dragons are monsters, killing machines who arguably should not exist, or at least, they represent an uncontrollable heavenly fire... Trying to tame such a thing inevitably blows up in your face, but I digress.. The dragons are only good for destruction, that's all they do really. And what do we think Dany will be doing with her dragons? Conquering Westeros for her own personal glory? Or using those motherfuckers to melt some Others?

The answer is the same as it is for Lightbringer.

In the end, I suspect the dragons must be destroyed, just as the Others must be.

In the end, they left Lightbringer in the frozen North, safe from the hands of fire sorcerers like Azor Ahai or his descendants. They left it at Winterfell, warded with gargoyles and the statues of the kings of winter. And look, those King of Winter are very hostile to Jon alone among Starks, even though he is half Stark. What could it be? Dragon blood, of course. The birthright of Azor Ahai - his sword and his dragon - is what is waiting for Jon to reclaim, I believe.

Meanwhile, they left that deadly ice sword of the King of Winter down in Dorne, with the descendants of fire people. Far away from those icy-blooded Starks. When Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, he might have been repeating the actions of the first King of Winter, bringing Ice south while Lightbringer (Ned's sword, now Oathkeeper) went north.

I think I have listed some of the Daynes who seem to be playing the role of sword of the evening as recreating BSE actions... Variant Dayne, sword of the evening, went to the Wall, as I believe the LH did with Lightbringer (the sword of the evening). Samwell "Starfire" Dayne sacked and burned Oldtown, which I believe is exactly what the BsE AA did - invaded at Oldtown. Then we have Darkstar, who tries to kill a moon maiden with a sword (which of course was glittering with starlight in the same scene).

We also have other BSE AA / Am Em NN parallels, tons of them. The Dance of the Dragons was a younger brother usurping his older sister - sound familiar? TPATQ is full of astronomy, especially the dragon rider due, over the God's Eye, and the Sunfyre - Moondancer fight which ended in both dragons crashing into the water...

Red Kracken Dalton Greyjoy, with his sword Nightfall, invaded the west coast of Westeros, again as I believe the BSE AA did. Euron is doing it again, same deal. Remember the old stories that the oldest part of the citadel, the Ravenry, used to be the stronghold of a pirate lord? Hello. "Paging an invasion from Asshai by magical Hitler to the front desk, that's magical Hitler to the Battle Isle please. Bring your sword."

Damon Targaryen, another usurper or a sort (King of the Narrow Sea) did some AA shit, notably setting up his royal seat on Bloodstone Island (really, this happened). I don't AA ruled from the Stepstones, but he did sort of drop a bloodstone meteor on the arm of Dorne.

Stannis - what's he telling us about AA? That's is a damn good question. Stannis seems to AA turning into the Night's King.

[Archmaester Drew]

WOW! :bowdown: :cheers:

Amazing analysis, LmL! Best OP ever -- the whole series comes into focus viewed through this lens. I'm speechless...

... And great comments too in this thread! :cheers:

(Although, I've only read the first two pages so far...)

I think that GRRM is also drawing some inspiration for the Azor Ahai legends from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champions, particularly Elric of Melnibone, wielder of Stormbringer, and his cousin Yyrkoon, wielder of Mournblade -- twin to Stormbringer -- both of which drink the souls of the slain. You may find some more 'gems' there ;)

[LmL]

WOW! :bowdown: :cheers:

Amazing analysis, LmL! Best OP ever -- the whole series comes into focus viewed through this lens. I'm speechless...

... And great comments too in this thread! :cheers:

(Although, I've only read the first two pages so far...)

I think that GRRM is also drawing some inspiration for the Azor Ahai legends from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champions, particularly Elric of Melnibone, wielder of Stormbringer, and his cousin Yyrkoon, wielder of Mournblade -- twin to Stormbringer -- both of which drink the souls of the slain. You may find some more 'gems' there ;)

Thanks Archmaester, that means a lot as I know you have a sharp eye and a critical mind. This essay is really a refinement of a lot of ideas which have been scattered around in previous essays, so I'm glad you found the presentation compelling.

Yes, the Moorcock stuff is certainly among the influences here, and it came up in one of my early threads. Soul drinking black swords, wielded by an albino sorcerer lord who is the last of his line, right? I only looked at the wikipedia, so I just have the surface ideas, but it seems like a dead ringer, and of course "Eldric Shadowchaser" is a planted flag in this regard. I would welcome any extra levels of detail you can bring - what I took away is basically what i said above, plus the fact that there was actually the spirit of a demon hiding in the sword. I would liken that to Nissa Nissa's soul being drank up by LB, as well as the stories of the ancient ironborn have black weapons that drank the souls of those whom they killed. The Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and it's bite was sharp and cold as a leech - a blood drinking thing. That's the deal with the black sword, Lightbringer - it's a soul drinker. It drinks the light, as I was pointing out in the OP. It all fits together, especially when you think about it in terms of Lovecraftian meteorites which cause all kinds of sickness and magical insanity.

Anyway, if you think of any Moorcock stuff that applies, please share it. :cheers:

[Archmaester Drew]

Thanks Archmaester, that means a lot as I know you have a sharp eye and a critical mind. This essay is really a refinement of a lot of ideas which have been scattered around in previous essays, so I'm glad you found the presentation compelling.

Yes, the Moorcock stuff is certainly among the influences here, and it came up in one of my early threads. Soul drinking black swords, wielded by an albino sorcerer lord who is the last of his line, right? I only looked at the wikipedia, so I just have the surface ideas, but it seems like a dead ringer, and of course "Eldric Shadowchaser" is a planted flag in this regard. I would welcome any extra levels of detail you can bring - what I took away is basically what i said above, plus the fact that there was actually the spirit of a demon hiding in the sword. I would liken that to Nissa Nissa's soul being drank up by LB, as well as the stories of the ancient ironborn have black weapons that drank the souls of those whom they killed. The Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and it's bite was sharp and cold as a leech - a blood drinking thing. That's the deal with the black sword, Lightbringer - it's a soul drinker. It drinks the light, as I was pointing out in the OP. It all fits together, especially when you think about it in terms of Lovecraftian meteorites which cause all kinds of sickness and magical insanity.

Anyway, if you think of any Moorcock stuff that applies, please share it. :cheers:

I haven't read any Moorcock in many years -- nor do I have your eye and mind for literary analysis -- but the whole anti-hero/grey protagonist, and the dark and tragic overtones of the story lines are parallel. But what I find most intriguing is the hint that Elric (Eldric?) and Yyrkoon (Hyrkoon?) may have traveled to Planetos around the time of the Long Night -- as they visit many worlds and dimensions. I believe Moorck's Eternal Champion is also influenced by Campbell.

I'll read Elric again soon and let you know if I notice anything of interest. They're actually quite short (~200 pages each). :)

[vuk]

Somebody of BSE's descendants or close relatives played the role of the Last Hero and made a redemption by using LB to end LN. If that is the case, it could very simply be the person later known as the Night's King. In all complexity of Martin's world, it looks to me that the same as BSE moved from good to evil (assuming he's not born evil, instead had become evil in desire to make things good) by using LB (forged wrong, from wrong material), Last Hero (assuming he isn't the same person as AA - it would be too much for one charachter to play in GRRM's world, to much significance to one being just isn't his style) moved from good to evil too, also probably without knowledge, with the same desire - to make things right (undone all deeds of BSE). He used LB to end LN, drove the Others back, than built the Wall with help of CoTF, than founded Winterfell and House Stark and after that was 13th Lord Comander of the Night's Watch (existing theory Brendon the Builder is Night's King). He has been doing the same things as BSE - took the wrong "woman" for a wife, named himself a King, made sacrifices. In this way, "the Bearers who inhereted the Legacy" (sin within the very existence of LB) conveyed that primal sin from Fire (Asshai, ex GEoTD) to Ice (Wall, North) and looks like some cycle had been completed. I said Bearers because it might be LH and NK weren't the same person. NK (Brandon the Builder) could be Last Hero's son or grandson.

[vuk]

And thats how Ice, the sword of House Stark, came to them. It goes from the start again as LmL said. Tywin (in a role of Lion of Night) divided Ice in two, the same as Sun did with the comet. (afterthought: if Sun really did split the comet before the impact, maybe this is hint that LB will be forged right this time :-P :-))

It looks just like using of Sauron's ring can only bring destruction even if the ring had been used by the most powerfull beings in Middle Earth, the same is with using LB, even to make things right - always ends in the evil way.

[LmL]

Hey Vuk, I've been reading your comments here the last few days and meaning to respond.

You're taking to big picture view, and thinking about themes and character arcs and how they would fit into the story - that's terrific. That's something we have to do occasionally - pull back from the detail and try to see these smaller pieces as part of the whole.

I like where you're going here, with the idea that the Last Hero starts off going against his father's evil, but eventually falls prey to the same temptation, this time becoming the Nights King. I've considered different versions of this scenario, because there are a lot of hints that the LH might have become the Nights King. Stannis particular seems like an Azor Ahai turning into a Nights King, so that pattern is created there. There's also ideas around ice and fire magic being different manifestations of the same power, potentially explaining why Mel's fire magic is stronger at the Wall even though it clearly seems to be a nexus of ice magic.

Check out Lord Martin's "The Starks are not First Men."

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125527-the-starks-are-not-first-men-spoilers-all/

Here's the confusion: when I read the Nights King tale, it sound like someone creating Others, as Craster is. The NK was found to have been sacrificing to the Others - that means male babies, almost certainly, just like Craster. The Nights Queen is the real power here, I think. She would have been an ice Melisandre (hat tip Durran Durrandon), so these Others created by the two of them could have been different than Craster's children who are sired on human woman instead of icy human - other hybrid lady. Read Melisandre's fire vision section again, where the fire is inside of her, searing and transforming her. Now take the fiery language and replace with icy language - there's your Nights Queen.

Here is Durran's post on this topic, a great read also:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126880-one-god-two-gods-red-god-blue-god-melisandre-and-the-nights-queen/

What I am saying is that the NK story sounds like a story about the creation of the Others. But in that case, it should have happened at the beginning of the Long Night, not shortly after. I think this is entirely possible - we can't trust the timeline to be that specific on 8,000 year old events. There are myriad ways that 12 NW commanders could have been accounted for - the NW existed at the beginning of the LN and 12 of them died, so the first LC took the number 13 to honor them, etc.

But if the Last Hero became the NK, then again we have chronology issues. The Others must have been created near the beginning of the Long Night, or at least during the Long Night. They can't wait for the LH to get to the Wall - the LH doesn't need to go to the Wall if the Others don't exist yet.

The LH cannot have been the NK who created the first Others, it seems.

Any ideas here?

[oursisthefury69]

Oursisthefury69, I have spent a bit of time thinking about the "Winteffell dragon." I have never noticed the hot springs working differently - I thought they were warm and misty during the wedding, as they should be... Do you have a quote for this? That woul be interesting indeed.

I plan on rereading the chapters so I'll definitely let you know if I saw anything singularly specific/overt; But from what I remember its noted more than once, the springs and pools just being plain different, seemingly less alive/warm, and that was something I'd made note of before the release of the Worldbook, which mentioned the smallfolks belief of a dragon beneath Winterfell warming the castle (along with the mention of whichever targaryens dragon may have laid eggs in the crypts/winterfell when visiting to make the pact of Ice and Fire) and that really seems to be a thing to me now

[oursisthefury69]

Indeed. The way I see this:

Nissa Nissa never neared her breast willingly. That's just wrong. Basically, when you make the astronomy events the master template, it dictates that Azor Ahai murdered and betrayed his wife, and this caused the Long Night. This is at odds with the interpretation of the AA myth that the red priests give us, but when you compare AA's story to that of the Bloodstone Emperor, then it begins to fit. It WAS a murder and a usurpation, just as the astronomy indicates. The BSE took the power of the murdering Nissa moon by making a sword from the black stone, and probably using the black stone to enable his dark sorcery - necromancy, specifically.

When we step back from the AA myth and consider what is really happening, I think out common sense agrees with the astronomy. Dude stabbed his wife to make a magic sword? What kind of evil mother fucker was that? I think Martin is tricking us here, seeing if our willingness to cast aside realism because (it's a fantasy novel) will enable us to swallow the notion that heroic weapons of light can forged by murdering people. I don't buy, and never have, even long before I found the astronomy pattern which indicates the same.

The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai was magical Hitter, and he murdered the Amethyst Empress, Nissa Nissa.

That's my theory, anyway. What I think happened ultimately is that he was defeated in Westeros, and it seems someone, perhaps his son, took up the sword and became the LH. Think about Lightbringer as a deadly weapon of fire magic. It represents a polar extreme, and it's heavenly fire which really should not be on the earth. What do you do with a sword like that? Well, you use it to counteract the same - an extreme, polar opposite magic - deadly ice magic. I think this fits the themes of the book pretty well - after all, this is more or less the path the dragons take. Dragons are monsters, killing machines who arguably should not exist, or at least, they represent an uncontrollable heavenly fire... Trying to tame such a thing inevitably blows up in your face, but I digress.. The dragons are only good for destruction, that's all they do really. And what do we think Dany will be doing with her dragons? Conquering Westeros for her own personal glory? Or using those motherfuckers to melt some Others?

The answer is the same as it is for Lightbringer.

In the end, I suspect the dragons must be destroyed, just as the Others must be.

In the end, they left Lightbringer in the frozen North, safe from the hands of fire sorcerers like Azor Ahai or his descendants. They left it at Winterfell, warded with gargoyles and the statues of the kings of winter. And look, those King of Winter are very hostile to Jon alone among Starks, even though he is half Stark. What could it be? Dragon blood, of course. The birthright of Azor Ahai - his sword and his dragon - is what is waiting for Jon to reclaim, I believe.

Meanwhile, they left that deadly ice sword of the King of Winter down in Dorne, with the descendants of fire people. Far away from those icy-blooded Starks. When Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, he might have been repeating the actions of the first King of Winter, bringing Ice south while Lightbringer (Ned's sword, now Oathkeeper) went north.

I think I have listed some of the Daynes who seem to be playing the role of sword of the evening as recreating BSE actions... Variant Dayne, sword of the evening, went to the Wall, as I believe the LH did with Lightbringer (the sword of the evening). Samwell "Starfire" Dayne sacked and burned Oldtown, which I believe is exactly what the BsE AA did - invaded at Oldtown. Then we have Darkstar, who tries to kill a moon maiden with a sword (which of course was glittering with starlight in the same scene).

We also have other BSE AA / Am Em NN parallels, tons of them. The Dance of the Dragons was a younger brother usurping his older sister - sound familiar? TPATQ is full of astronomy, especially the dragon rider due, over the God's Eye, and the Sunfyre - Moondancer fight which ended in both dragons crashing into the water...

Red Kracken Dalton Greyjoy, with his sword Nightfall, invaded the west coast of Westeros, again as I believe the BSE AA did. Euron is doing it again, same deal. Remember the old stories that the oldest part of the citadel, the Ravenry, used to be the stronghold of a pirate lord? Hello. "Paging an invasion from Asshai by magical Hitler to the front desk, that's magical Hitler to the Battle Isle please. Bring your sword."

Damon Targaryen, another usurper or a sort (King of the Narrow Sea) did some AA shit, notably setting up his royal seat on Bloodstone Island (really, this happened). I don't AA ruled from the Stepstones, but he did sort of drop a bloodstone meteor on the arm of Dorne.

Stannis - what's he telling us about AA? That's is a damn good question. Stannis seems to AA turning into the Night's King.

So then, to put it relatively simple, you think the contrasting notion of lightbringer being the means to (if not one of the more important things to) end the Long Night is somewhat bs compared to the more real concept that the forging of it by the Bloodstone Emperor is what actually started the Long Night, in the same fashion that is more or less bs/propaganda that the Red Priests make the sacrifice from "Nissa Nissa" seem voluntary/justified/righteous?

[oursisthefury69]

What I am saying is that the NK story sounds like a story about the creation of the Others. But in that case, it should have happened at the beginning of the Long Night, not shortly after. I think this is entirely possible - we can't trust the timeline to be that specific on 8,000 year old events. There are myriad ways that 12 NW commanders could have been accounted for - the NW existed at the beginning of the LN and 12 of them died, so the first LC took the number 13 to honor them, etc.

But if the Last Hero became the NK, then again we have chronology issues. The Others must have been created near the beginning of the Long Night, or at least during the Long Night. They can't wait for the LH to get to the Wall - the LH doesn't need to go to the Wall if the Others don't exist yet.

The LH cannot have been the NK who created the first Others, it seems.

Any ideas here?

I agree with your thinking here to an extent, as I think it passing odd that the Others were defeated in the LN, and then shortly after we have like a mild resurgence with the women Other (Night) and her King, the 13th Lord Commander, making sacrifices and reigning with dark magic for 13 years. Definitely strange how they're supposedly recently defeated and then we see this almost immediate resurgence before being taken down by Joramun and his Brother King in the North (obv important too, the whole brother aspect bringing down Nights King bodes for a potential conflict between Bran and Jon imo). And I dont pretend to have an answer for how it worked out like this; However, I don't think the answer is just that the timeline of it is just complete BS and the Long Night hadnt happened already. Im of the belief that Last Hero = Nights King, perhaps names himself the 13th commander in honor of 12 previously fallen companions, and he comes back to eventually take a turn for the worst. Perhaps he helps build the wall with re-learned magics from the Children, before a time passing and him eventually being seduced by the Women Other Night, for whatever reasons

[LmL]

I agree, it definitely seems like a thing. The idea that Summer actually saw a dragon just seems to far-fetched to people, so they just assume Summer was mistaken. But the description is hard to dismiss, in my opinion, especially given the clues around the castle. But then, yes, we get three different "Winterfell dragon" clues in TWOIAF, which seems like Martin planting a flashing red light there. In fact, I think Martin did this a few times in TWOIAF, which tells me he is roughly aware of what fans have figured out and what they have not. He saw that nobody believed or was paying attention to the Winterfell dragon idea, so he tossed out a bunch of clues about it.

Similarly, despite the fact that Tyrion has been having dragon dreams and fantasies ever since book one, people have still been slow to pick up on "Tyrion Targaryen." And so, we get very specific information in TWOIAF which rules out the possibility of Jamie or Cersei Targaryen, but do place Aerys and Joanna together at the right time to conceive Tyrion. There are some other Casterly Rock - dragon clues as well.

But as to the Winterfell dragon, here's what my instinct tells me. That dragon was real.

Gargoyles are for warding, that's true in real life and established in Cressen's ACOK prologue. Only Dragonstone and Winterfell have them, and Winterfell only on the round First Keep. The roundness of the First Keep is anarchronistic - it's a building style only supposed to have been introduced to Westeros by the Andals, say the maesters. But, we have three round tower keeps which I believe predate the Andals. The First Keep of Winterfell and the remains of castle Pyke are both definitively pre-Andal, and both round. Pyke in particular even predates the Ironborn's arrival to the islands, supposedly. Storm's End is the third, supposedly built in the Age of Heroes by Bran the Builder and Durran Godsgrief. It's possible that one has been added to, so that what we see now is Andal design but underneath is an older FM round castle, it's hard to say. The fact that Storms End and the Wall are the only two buildings that we KNOW have warding spells set into them, it's probable that Storms End and the Wall were in fact built around the same time by the same culture.

So we have three round tower keeps which seem to have come from the Dawn Age / Age of Heroes (I don't acknowledge the delineation - to me there is only before and after the Long Night), or perhaps the time period immediately following the Long Night (the latest possible date for Winterfell's First Keep IMO). This makes all three of these castles more significant than they were already, because they represent a lost knowledge, a lost technique, which implies other lost knowledge.

So - the gargoyles. They are for warding, as I said, and the First Keep is covered by them. We don't know what shapes they are, because they are too worn out. Are they wyverns, dragons, and hell hounds like on Dragonstone? Probably - so now picture in your mind a dark grey stone castle, covered in hellhounds, wyverns, and dragons. It's built on a hot spot, connected to the "sacred fires beneath the earth" (this is Maesters Luwin's wording), an outpost of warmth surrounded by a black wood and a "frozen grey waste" as Cersei calls the North. Starting to feel a little different, right?

Well, I also think that Neds sword is actually Lightbringer, so, if that's the case, we have THE dragonsteel fire sword of dragonsteel fire swords, and it is parked inside a gargoyle-warded hot castle.

Now, did a dragon really did fly away during the sack? There are a lot of clues - they made noise enough to wake a dragon, Osha says, and there is one loud crashing sound that is much louder than all the others in the middle of the night. We know there was a massive amount of fire and blood spilled onto the ground, in the moats, probably in the pools as well. There are symbolic turns of phrase and Lightbringer clues in this chapter also, which raises my eyebrows, of course. One dude is burnt near the First Keep, but his hands are covering his face in death, as if he were trying to shield his face from dragonfire. Summer hears wild, hysterical shouting (this is well after the battle) during the night, which sounds a bit overwrought for feasting. Finally, the First Keep has one side of it totally collapsed. That keep has stood for 8,000 years through three different sacks of Winterfell by various Boltons. But now, Ramsay setts some fires and the First Keep just collapses?

I don't buy it.

This is one of the things which keep me coming back to this. The First Keep sounds a lot like the Hellholt castle after Meraxes was shot down in Dorne and crashed through the wall of the castle, collapsing part of it. We don't have cannonballs in ASOIAF, so how does an 8,000 year old stone keep just collapse violently like that?

This is the smoking gun, IMO.

Then of course Summer sees a flying serpent breathing a river of fire. If this wasn't just a trick of the flames, then we have a dragon. It can't be a freshly hatched one, because newborns don't breathe fire yet, let alone a river of it. It can't have been living under Winterfell for a hundred years or more, eating rats and sneaking out to the Wolfswood through secret tunnels and staying unobserved all that time. That seems way too far fetched.

The only answer is a hibernating dragon.

But whose?

We have gargoyles, warding the First Keep from... Something. Now, we go to the crypts and find the Kings of Winter with unsheathed iron longswords across their laps. Even Bran knows what that means when Robb does it - it's a denial of hospitality, and a naked threat. Who is the only person that ever feels hostility from the stone Kings of Winter?

Jon. And what is unique about Jon? Dragon blood. That's it - the Kings of Winter don't care about his bastardry. Sorry, but no. He's just as much Stark as the other children by blood - marriage is a custom, blood is blood. Kings of Winter don't care about human connections like marriage, I just can't believe that. It's Jon's DRAGON BLOOD that they are rejecting. But he knows he has to go further, down to the oldest levels of the crypts... What's waiting there? Something that he has to claim, but something the Kings of Winter don't want him to claim. Something having to do with his dragon blood.

Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, in some sense, so his birthright should be all of Azor Ahai's goodies. That means Azor Ahai's sword, which is Lightbringer / dragonsteel, and Azor Ahai's DRAGON.

The one which used to be hibernating beneath Winterfell, for 8,000 years, and woke when certain significant events occurred, capped off by the fire and blood offering made to the castle. This is what my gut tells me - Winterfell was built to keep these deadly fire weapons both safe from dragon lords who would abuse them, and also ready to use against the ice demons when they came again. Azor Ahai's sword, kept on ice, dipped in the cold black pool and used to offer blood to the weirwood of Winterfell.... For thousands of years. His dragon, hibernating beneath the castle. Waiting. For 8,000 years. The comet returns, the Stark is not in Winterfell, the Stark lord beheaded with Lightbringer, Lightbringer split into two swords, the sack and burning of Winterfell while the Others prepare to invade... Any of these events could be part of the trigger mechanism.

So, if that bit of insanity is correct, where is that dragon, and what is it like? Well, if it is Azor Ahai's dragon, it's going to be one of the black ones, which breathe black fire. Shadow fire.

"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire."

It's going to be a BIG ASS dragon, I am guessing. And this would be the one that Jon is going to ride.

Annnnnnnd it's probably time to eat lunch before I say something crazy.