Are female characters in the ASOIAF judged more harshly than the male ones ?

[Diregon]

I am kinda new in this forum but going by some of the topics it gave me the impression that the four major POV female characters who are typically " lady like" spark the most division of opinion.

So I am just wondering what have Sansa, Cersei , Catelyn and Dany done so drastic that the male characters haven't done which earns them such a huge amount of negative popularity .( I can see in Cersei's case though but rest of the three are a bit more difficult )

And also even though characters like Arya( who is literally a bloody assassin with a unsatiable streak for revenge ), Brienne ( who is as naive as Sansa was if not more) And Arianne ( who blatantly goes against her dad for selfish motives) get a clean chit because they are not typical fantasy world ladies.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

The warrior ladies or femmes fatales get a pass on this site but any women who attempt to hold power or rule on their own get slammed. Some of the Dany and Sansa hate I find ridicules.

[falcotron]

I think there are multiple things going on here, and I think what you've identified is only part of the answer.

• There are "factions" of fans who are one on character's "team" and think they have to therefore hate certain other characters. Being on Team Jon means you have to hate Cat, and either hate Dany or think her story is irrelevant until she meets Jon; etc.
  
• Arya's story is just a lot of fun to read, and, while the same isn't true of Brienne's later chapters, it certainly is of her travels with Jaime, so they get a lot of slack just for that. Sansa's story, on the other hand, is boring on first read, and Dany's story gets all the blame for the "Meereenese knot" that delayed the last two books and, for some fans, made them unsatisfying. Some people transfer their dislike for the chapters to the PoV characters for those chapters.
  
• Some people believe GRRM is, or at least should be, first and foremost a trope-breaker, and therefore Arya and Brienne not being "typical fantasy world ladies" get major points. Dany, on the other hand, is half archetypal fantasy hero and half archetypal fantasy maiden.
  
• Some people want to judge the characters by modern real-world standards, and Brienne and Arianne are the only characters who seem to demand to be judged by those standards. From a skewed-enough feminist point of view, on the other hand, Sansa and Cat can almost be seen as inviting patriarchy rather than suffering it.
  
• Bandwagons are always fun. If other people are writing funny insults about Cat, you can join in.
  

The biggest question for me is why people have to take sides in the first place. Personally, one of my favorite moments in my first read was the battle of Blackwater, when I realized that I was rooting for both Stannis and Tyrion at the same time. That's a pretty impressive feat for a writer to pull off; why would I want to fight against it?

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I've always thought Arya is super dark. While I love her as a character I see her going down a dark path and if she doesn't turn back soon she may be lost forever. She is losing her soul and her humanity.

I appreciate all of the ladies of GRRM and while I don't really like Cat I understand her and enjoy reading her chapters and I empathize with her.

[Diregon]

I think there are multiple things going on here, and I think what you've identified is only part of the answer.

• There are "factions" of fans who are one on character's "team" and think they have to therefore hate certain other characters. Being on Team Jon means you have to hate Cat, and either hate Dany or think her story is irrelevant until she meets Jon; etc.

  As great as Team Jon is, can you really think that Jon would ever be able to rule Westeros as a king without any experience in ruling.

  What makes people choose Stannis over Dany ? Both have made terrible decisions. One trusts fire magic to win battles and one solely relies on dragonfire to conquer.

  Contrary to the popular belief that its only Dany who is a conqueror not a ruler .

  Stannis hasn't had any experience in ruling either.

  Or how can you pick someone like Aegon who may or may not be real and also who you have never even seen properly . Do people hate on Dany so much that they are willing to trust on someone who they have barely met?

• Arya's story is just a lot of fun to read, and, while the same isn't true of Brienne's later chapters, it certainly is of her travels with Jaime, so they

  a lot of slack just for that. Sansa's story, on the other hand, is boring on first read, and Dany's story gets all the blame for the "Meereenese knot" that delayed the last two books and, for some fans, made them unsatisfying. Some people transfer their dislike for the chapters to the PoV characters for those chapters.

  Arya's story was the most detached since the beginning of second book .

  She has her own little adventures. Brienne had the most boring chapters according to popular opinion in Feast.

  Whereas Sansa was always around something explosive . She was always in places where the most exciting stuff happens . I don't know how they can be boring . Blackwater . Lysa . Purple Wedding. Cersei . LF!

• Some people believe GRRM is, or at least should be, first and foremost a trope-breaker, and therefore Arya and Brienne not being "typical fantasy world ladies" get major points. Dany, on the other hand, is half archetypal fantasy hero and half archetypal fantasy maiden.

  Jon is more archetypal hero from that logic and yet he is loved

• Some people want to judge the characters by modern real-world standards, and Brienne and Arianne are the only characters who seem to demand to be judged by those standards. From a skewed-enough feminist point of view, on the other hand, Sansa and Cat can almost be seen as inviting patriarchy rather than suffering it.

  Say hello to Dany. Who is fighting too be the first queen of westeros.

• Bandwagons are always fun. If other people are writing funny insults about Cat, you can join in.

But really well put though :)

[falcotron]

I think you're missing the point of my post. I'm not claiming the Cat-haters or Dany-haters are rational and we should join them. But obviously they have their reasons, even if they're bad reasons, and I'm just trying to explore what those probably-bad reasons might be. That's what you asked for, right?

So, with that in mind:

As great as Team Jon is, can you really think that Jon would ever be able to rule Westeros as a king without any experience in ruling.

What makes people choose Stannis over Dany ? Both have made terrible decisions. One trusts fire magic to win battles and one solely relies on dragonfire to conquer.

Contrary to the popular belief that its only Dany who is a conqueror not a ruler .

Stannis hasn't had any experience in ruling either.

There are already hundreds of threads started by people who want to convince you that Stannis is the Mannis (and dozens by people who want to convince you that he's pure evil). If you want to know how they justify their choices after the fact, there's plenty to read. They can find ways to twist every line in the books to fit their viewpoint. If you're openly asking them to come take over your thread and turn it into yet another one of those, you'll probably get your wish...

Or how can you pick someone like Aegon who may or may not be real and also who you have never even seen properly . Do people hate on Dany so much that they are willing to trust on someone who they have barely met?

That's what picking teams means. Do Dodgers fans really have any good reasons to personally hate the Yankees' best players, or to cheer on the Red Sox during the playoffs just because it pisses off Yankees fans?

Arya's story was the most detached since the beginning of second book .

She has her own little adventures.

But they're fun adventures. And I suspect that for the kind of reader who finds the last two books boring, being detached isn't a bad thing.

Brienne had the most boring chapters according to popular opinion in Feast.

As I said, "while the same isn't true of Brienne's later chapters, it certainly is of her travels with Jaime". Some people had already made up their mind that Brienne Is Pure Awesome, so they gave her a pass for the pointless wandering stuff.

Jon is more archetypal hero from that logic and yet he is loved

Sure. There are different kinds of fans with different kinds of reasons. The ones who hate Dany because they're on Team Jon obviously don't hate Jon. The ones who hate Dany because she's too standard-fantasy, on the other hand, are the same ones who post things like, "If Jon ends up as king of anything but his own ass at the end of the books, I will burn my collection".

Say hello to Dany. Who is fighting too be the first queen of westeros.

But she keeps saying "I'm only a weak little girl" to get her way. If you really want to twist things, you can take her as anti-feminist. But, again, the point is that you have to really want to twist things first.

And that gets back to the start: choosing teams in ASoIaF is not a rational thing to do. GRRM has deliberately made all of these characters grey, and attempting to paint some of them as whiter than white and others as blacker than black is silly. So, you pretty much have to take for granted that whatever reasons people have for doing so are not going to be convincing to you.

And, to be fair, you're reading those reasons as presented by me, someone who doesn't agree with them. If you want to see their own explanations as to why Cat is Morgoth and Arya is Jesus, there are plenty of places to find them.

[Codename: Nymeria]

A large part of it, I think, is that they are "typical fantasy women" in an environment where everyone is seeking trope-breaking, epic-shattering reworkings that take those kind of things out. That said, your "typical fantasy women" is a damsel in distress, essentially, from Helen of Troy and Persephone to Guinivere. Traditional fantasy trope women are passive, static character that essentially exist as prizes for the heroes. And there's nothing particularly interesting or commendable about essentially being a weak-willed prop.

I think it's pretty obvious why people hate Cersei - she's supposed to be a villain. Still, notice how (in direct opposition to Ned Stark), she never dirties her hands when wielding power - she expects someone (Jaime, Tywin, Frankenstein's Mountain) to do that work for her.

Likewise, think about when Cat has Tyrion arrested. She appeals to her father's name and gets a bunch of men to actually surround Tyrion and capture him. She commends Ned to LF's trust, blinded by her good intentions. By the same token, Sansa is totally just sitting in the Eyrie, letting LF kill her aunt and take over the Riverlands without doing a whole hell of a lot about it. It's less pronounced, but Dany definitely has moments where she sorta turns into a scared little princess (like when she dreams about Daario saving her from her marriage with Hizdahr), and I think everyone is waiting for her to just mount Drogon and get the hell on with conquering things.

I also think you have to take the demographics of the people involved into mind. I'm guessing these boards skew towards a male demographic, and that most of the women on here are not the kind of women who would see someone like Catelyn or Sansa as a role model (as opposed to Arya or Brienne, say). If you had the normal viewing audience of "The Bachelor" commenting on this show, I'd bet they'd be a lot more sympathetic to the characters you named. But I would posit the type of people who post of this forum skew towards favoring active character who consciously try and create change and action, like Jon, or Tyrion (or Arya).

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I am kinda new in this forum but going by some of the topics it gave me the impression that the four major POV female characters who are typically " lady like" spark the most division of opinion.

So I am just wondering what have Sansa, Cersei , Catelyn and Dany done so drastic that the male characters haven't done which earns them such a huge amount of negative popularity .( I can see in Cersei's case though but rest of the three are a bit more difficult )

And also even though characters like Arya( who is literally a bloody assassin with a unsatiable streak for revenge ), Brienne ( who is as naive as Sansa was if not more) And Arianne ( who blatantly goes against her dad for selfish motives) get a clean chit because they are not typical fantasy world ladies.

I don't agree with your premise. First of all Arya and Arianne do not get "clean chit(s)" because they are unconventional women, personally I find Arienne egocentric, selfish, bitchy, annoying, and lacking in positive traits (but then again I think that or nearly every Dornish character aside for Ellaria Sand). Many on the board dislike Arya, see her as a raving killer who may have gone beyond the point of no return.

I'm not sure by what metric Dany is lady like.

You admitted yourself that Cersei shouldn't be on there.

Sansa is dislike because she didn't really do anything for nearly 4 books (except potentially cause her own father's death), however if you look at reactions to her AFFC chapters and the TWOW sample you will see they are much more positive.

Cat is a tricky one, it mostly comes down to Jon; we are supposed to like him, we are supposed to see her treatment of him as highly negative, from that many people will dislike her. Of course her ill thought through decisions to capture Tyrion and release Jaime also play a huge role in this.

Ignoring the first three, which don't make much sense for this topic, the reason Catelyn is more controversial than most male characters because of issues around sexism and feminism. Which side came to the debate first is irrelevant.

What matters is that many people who are fairly pro-Catelyn and somewhat feminist inclined will see harsh criticisms of Cat, dismiss most/all of it as sexist (regardless of what the content of the critique actually was), and defend Cat on points that they, when behaving rationally, will recognise she probably shouldn't be defended on.

On the flip side many people who are somewhat anti-Catelyn or even Cat neutral and somewhat negatively inclined towards modern day feminism will view people defending Catelyn, assume that much if it is a feminist defence, which in their mind is little better than excusing her questionable actions because of her gender, and will respond by attacking Cat on points that that they should recognise she doesn't deserve to be attacked on.

[Diregirl]

What's funny, as a female reader I feel not judgmental towards the female characters at all. I can see where everybody comes from, so to speak - even Melisandre, who I dislike most of all female characters (mildly, I would say). Without an exception, they are extremely well-constructed and credible characters, even a villain like Cersei has a certain depth and ambivalence.

[Lyanna Stark]

I am kinda new in this forum but going by some of the topics it gave me the impression that the four major POV female characters who are typically " lady like" spark the most division of opinion.

So I am just wondering what have Sansa, Cersei , Catelyn and Dany done so drastic that the male characters haven't done which earns them such a huge amount of negative popularity .( I can see in Cersei's case though but rest of the three are a bit more difficult )

Yes, they do. This has been the way since back in 2001 when I first started reading the then version of the forums. A lot of people have problems with female characters that aren't stereotypical for a Fantasy setting and have a hard time empathising with women who aren't portrayed as chaste saints or the hero's designated prize. It's also a case of hatred and devaluing of femininity, which is a subject discussed within academia, so nothing "made up". A lot of people may feel they are all for women and men being equal, but still have a huge issue with femininity, hence the hatred of women like Sansa, Cat, Cersei and even Dany, since they are not warrior women or assassins and occupy a different space.

Luckily, it seems GRRM doesn't care about that and continues to write interesting and engaging characters of both genders for us to enjoy.

A large part of it, I think, is that they are "typical fantasy women" in an environment where everyone is seeking trope-breaking, epic-shattering reworkings that take those kind of things out. That said, your "typical fantasy women" is a damsel in distress, essentially, from Helen of Troy and Persephone to Guinivere. Traditional fantasy trope women are passive, static character that essentially exist as prizes for the heroes. And there's nothing particularly interesting or commendable about essentially being a weak-willed prop.

I think it's pretty obvious why people hate Cersei - she's supposed to be a villain. Still, notice how (in direct opposition to Ned Stark), she never dirties her hands when wielding power - she expects someone (Jaime, Tywin, Frankenstein's Mountain) to do that work for her.

Likewise, think about when Cat has Tyrion arrested. She appeals to her father's name and gets a bunch of men to actually surround Tyrion and capture him. She commends Ned to LF's trust, blinded by her good intentions. By the same token, Sansa is totally just sitting in the Eyrie, letting LF kill her aunt and take over the Riverlands without doing a whole hell of a lot about it. It's less pronounced, but Dany definitely has moments where she sorta turns into a scared little princess (like when she dreams about Daario saving her from her marriage with Hizdahr), and I think everyone is waiting for her to just mount Drogon and get the hell on with conquering things.

Yes, Sansa should have saved Lysa who tried to kill her? What a splendid idea. And she should have done exactly what to stop Littlefinger? Enlighten me, oh plot expert, for your knowledge seems deep and all-encompassing. The fact that Dany has feelings and insecurites make her a flawed and interesting character, instead of some sort of cardboard, cut-out alpha-male hero with tits. But God forbid she has some depth.

I also think you have to take the demographics of the people involved into mind. I'm guessing these boards skew towards a male demographic, and that most of the women on here are not the kind of women who would see someone like Catelyn or Sansa as a role model (as opposed to Arya or Brienne, say). If you had the normal viewing audience of "The Bachelor" commenting on this show, I'd bet they'd be a lot more sympathetic to the characters you named. But I would posit the type of people who post of this forum skew towards favoring active character who consciously try and create change and action, like Jon, or Tyrion (or Arya).

Well, at least you've managed to provide me with an excellent example of internalised sexism and hatred of femininity. Well done. Go get an example of Whipping Girl and get educated.

You'd be surprised at the demographic, estimates show that almost 50% of the readers are women, FYI.

[SeanF]

In response to the O/P, Cersei is obviously a villain. She's fun to read about, but there isn't a lot that can be said in her defence (Queen Cersei I did her best).

Sansa comes over (at first) as being stuck-up and stupid. She gets better as the series progresses.

Catelyn is a great, and very tragic, character. No one has her run of endless bad of bad luck. But, "it should have been you" really jars, early on, and predisposes some readers to dislike her.

Dany, like Tyrion, is surely written to be controversial. Both are portrayed with immense sympathy to begin with, and only gradually do their darker natures begin to emerge. It's worth noting that on this site, several of Dany's chief critics are women. They condemn her for the bad or misguided things she does, not because she's a woman.

[Lord Freypie]

I don't think women characters are treated far worse than males here recently (some years ago it was another story completely, search the 2000s era Sansa/Cat threads to appreciate the difference).

Perhaps there's still some misoginy in some posts, but it's far less pronounced than in older times and male characters get more than their fair share of hate recently.

Even Samwell got some kind of hate thread a few days ago, and I can't count how many posters can't mention Theon, Tyrion, Jaime or Stannis without reducing them to their crimes, even if it's not the topic (I'll always remember how some thread about Jon-Tyrion friensdhip in Agot was turned into "Tyrion is a criminal and rapist" in the space of only a dozen of posts ; or how a Stannis childhood and relation with his brothers thread was derailed into debates about the burnings making him as bad as Aerys) ; or even Robb, Ned or Jon without resuming them as stupid.

[The Marquis de Leech]

You can make a decent argument in favour of Cersei if you stick to the first three books. Since then Martin decided that he hadn't been obvious enough, and decided to go overboard in destroying any likeability the character had left.

[Nictarion]

Yes. Case and point, Daenerys. For example, she and Stannis are very similar characters in a lot of ways, yet Daenerys is branded as "mad" or "stupid", while Stannis is the "Mannis!". :rolleyes:

Cat and Sansa also receive more criticism than they deserve. Especially Cat.

[ElizabethB.]

....isnt that the whole point of double standards??

[Lord Freypie]

Dany being suspected to be mad is related to Targaryan madness (it's a theory like other theories about supposed "Targaryan traits", if all those are usually bad).

Catelyn has some objective reasons to be disliked, as she's used by the author to illustrate prejudice against bastards, and as some of her decisions had catastrophic consequences.

Sansa... Imo gets more than she desserve because many found her early chapters boring.

Brienne... Is far from a fan favorite even if she has "manly" badass qualities, for same reason.

Arianne... Is usually liked by people not being ADFC haters, sadly there's a lot of them.

Arya... Is eventually a bit unfairly popular, when her agency was limited to fleeing / be captured / fleeing / be captured again for 3 books, and out of that is borderline psychotic. But she's one of the rare characters delivering for people liking revenge fantasies, so it's understandable.

[khal drogon]

Especially among the rulers, Dany is more harshly judged than others. Dany is easily dismissed as a poor ruler though she has some really good qualities. We have never seen Stannis actually rule and we have barely seen Aegon yet people consider them better rulers.

[James of the Blackwater]

Yes. Case and point, Daenerys. For example, she and Stannis are very similar characters in a lot of ways, yet Daenerys is branded as "mad" or "stupid", while Stannis is the "Mannis!". :rolleyes:

Cat and Sansa also receive more criticism than they deserve. Especially Cat.

I dunno, theres a good amount of Stannis haters as well from what I've noticed

For me,

I don't hate Sansa, she was really annoying pre Ned beheading, but once she got her wits about her she starting to become more enjoyable to read and am looking forward to what's in store for her in TWoW.

Cat, well she was kind of annoying, but I didn't resent her to much, releasing the kingslayer was a bad move, but she had good instincts as well, she knew sending Theon to the Iron Islands was a terrible idea and she knew the truth about Walder Frey and how slighting him was a bad move by Robb. Robb probably should of listened to his mother more.

Dany, I really liked her chapters until we got to Mereen, which I thought her whole plotline in Dance was a giant snoozefest, but I don't really hate her, just the events of Mereen.

I love Arya, don't really have an opinion and Arianne, and I don't really like Brienne at all.

I find Cersei's chapters funny, just how over the top she is and her opinion of herself makes me laugh.

[A Bastard Snow]

A large part of it, I think, is that they are "typical fantasy women" in an environment where everyone is seeking trope-breaking, epic-shattering reworkings that take those kind of things out. That said, your "typical fantasy women" is a damsel in distress, essentially, from Helen of Troy and Persephone to Guinivere. Traditional fantasy trope women are passive, static character that essentially exist as prizes for the heroes. And there's nothing particularly interesting or commendable about essentially being a weak-willed prop.

I think it's pretty obvious why people hate Cersei - she's supposed to be a villain. Still, notice how (in direct opposition to Ned Stark), she never dirties her hands when wielding power - she expects someone (Jaime, Tywin, Frankenstein's Mountain) to do that work for her.

Likewise, think about when Cat has Tyrion arrested. She appeals to her father's name and gets a bunch of men to actually surround Tyrion and capture him. She commends Ned to LF's trust, blinded by her good intentions. By the same token, Sansa is totally just sitting in the Eyrie, letting LF kill her aunt and take over the Riverlands without doing a whole hell of a lot about it. It's less pronounced, but Dany definitely has moments where she sorta turns into a scared little princess (like when she dreams about Daario saving her from her marriage with Hizdahr), and I think everyone is waiting for her to just mount Drogon and get the hell on with conquering things.

I also think you have to take the demographics of the people involved into mind. I'm guessing these boards skew towards a male demographic, and that most of the women on here are not the kind of women who would see someone like Catelyn or Sansa as a role model (as opposed to Arya or Brienne, say). If you had the normal viewing audience of "The Bachelor" commenting on this show, I'd bet they'd be a lot more sympathetic to the characters you named. But I would posit the type of people who post of this forum skew towards favoring active character who consciously try and create change and action, like Jon, or Tyrion (or Arya).

I gotta agree with you on this.I would be fine with them if they were politically savvy with great intuition (Like Maergery or Lady Waynwood) but they just blunder around all the time.I never feel any dramatic tension with Cersei having to use her wits to outfox someone.She simply throws a tantrum reminds people her father was Tywin Lannister then does something completely foolish.

It's just Dany Sansa and Cersei don't really do anything.Dany and Cersei simply order people to do their bidding they don't use the fact that people underestimate women to lull men into a false sense of security before unveiling a brilliantly orchestrated plot.

It's always just "Dracarys" or "Unsullied" or "Random Lannister Soldier/Gold Cloak/KG"

[Chocs]

LOL. Arya gets a clean chit? You don't seem to have been around this site for long. This forum loves to take digs at popular characters, and make not-so-popular characters look like saints. Troll threads don't equal hatred/criticism. What's more annoying is the fact that just because you don't agree with certain opinions regarding characters like Sansa or Catelyn.. you automatically become sexist, misogynist, It's not like you can just be criticising them for their mistakes, of course not.