Why did George make the slavers in SB so atrocious?

[Greg B]

Or they could just take the easy route and revert to slavery, like Astapor.

That's entirely possible, though we shouldn't expect different states to follow exactly the same path. And even in Astapor, things have changed. Even if the short-term result is a return to slavery, with different masters and different slaves, we don't yet know what the long-term results will be. Before Daenerys came and broke them, these regimes had existed almost unchanged for five millennia. Whether this is realistic or not is another question, but as it is, I find it implausible that they just need more time.

Before you came Meereen was dying. Our rulers were old men with withered cocks and crones whose puckered cunts were dry as dust. They sat atop their pyramids sipping apricot wine and talking of the glories of the Old Empire whilst the centuries slipped by and the very bricks of the city crumbled all around them. Custom and caution had an iron grip upon us till you awakened us with fire and blood. A new time has come, and new things are possible.

[Lady Blackmont]

Bro, the world changes very slowly in Planteos. Additionally, we don't know whether those dates are correct.

They need development, not actual passage of time. In our world, these often travel hand in hand. On GRRTH, development has been retarded for various, largely unknown, reasons.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Nobody deserves any punishment for the actions of their ancestors.

Ever.

This is incredibly backwards thinking.

Edit: The meaning may sound ambiguous, but no sarcasm is being employed here.

True. If children of 12 who had inherited their ancestors' job can be punished for that why the Targs cannot be punished for what their ancestors did?

[Lady Blackmont]

I no doubt have slavers, murderers, rapists, and other horrible people in my bloodline.

Every person in the world has monsters in their family tree.

[FealtyToStannis]

I love how all your Dany related threads pretend to be aimed at genuine discourse but are actually thinly veiled attempts at marginalising Dany as a character/starting a Dany hate thread.

She undermines herself as a character. She has little to no redeemable qualities. Sure, you could say she is more ethical than the slavers she's fighting, but she'll stop at nothing to foist her own values and ethics on the people she subjugates. The result is a path of destruction that leaves things in a significantly worse state than they previously were.

[Lady Blackmont]

You quoted that, and went on to smack talk Dany.

:dunce: :bang:

[TheLightning Lord]

I love how all your Dany related threads pretend to be aimed at genuine discourse but are actually thinly veiled attempts at marginalising Dany as a character/starting a Dany hate thread.

Nail. On. Head.

[Cladinator]

Slavery is, was, and always will be atrocious. Naturally, GRRM is going to focus on slavery's dehumanizing atrociousness.

Also, I don't see what race has to do with it. Do we really need to go there?

[SeanF]

You don't have to be either Genghis Khan, or Nelson Mandela, to end slavery.

That is, you can take control of Meereen, announce that from now on, slavery ends, that no one will be punished for doing what was legal prior to abolition, but in future, people who take part in the slave trade will be punished. That requires neither genocide of the slave owners, nor a pacifist appeal to their better natures. It's also going to be the work of a lifetime.

[Lady Blackmont]

^Bingo

The problem is that Dany is unwilling to remain in Meereen for the rest of her life, and I can't think of anyone else in her company who has the vision and incorruptible nature to do so. Hell, I don't even know if Dany could do it. Change is a long and thankless task.

[Gibzit]

^Bingo

The problem is that Dany is unwilling to remain in Meereen for the rest of her life, and I can't think of anyone else in her company who has the vision and incorruptible nature to do so. Hell, I don't even know if Dany could do it. Change is a long and thankless task.

Missandei is your woman, she has all the skills and hate for slavery Dany has, and she has the added bonus of not being a foreign conqueror, but a former slave.

[Lady Blackmont]

And she is twelve.

I must have overlooked her because of my own ideas regarding her true identity, but if she turns out to be genuine I think she could make a great queen.

[Gibzit]

And she is twelve.

You do have a good point though. I think she would make a great queen.

Dany wasn't that old when Drogo died, who knows by the time Dany leaves Mereen she might be a grown woman.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

The slaves actually claim to have a decent quality of life, a large portion of them - Dany's living conditions after her overthrow were actually worse for many people. That is NOT a justification for slavery, but it does go against your OP's premise that the slaver's are so horrible. SLavery is basically the most evil thing one can do to another human being - so that said, as slavers go, they aren't especially bad - I mean compare them to the American south during the civil war. That was nothing but horror. It was so horrible you couldn't even write it in a book.

I think they're very silly and ostentatious, but that's how they were supposed to be. They are remnants of a different time, much like the Undying, living off of remembered glories long in the past. A house of kindling ready to go up in flames. Dany set it afire... it was bound to happen. The real shit will hit the fan when Volantis overthrows the old blood.

Children who grow up in homes where they are abused don't know they're being abused. Thats a fact. Some slaves may be "better off" than others, as house slaves in the Old South. This doesn't mean that slavery as an idea as a practice is not atrocious, just as child abuse is atrocious.

One of the saddest things I read in these books are the old slaves and some younger who want to sell themselves back into slavery because they have nothing else. This is tragic. Basic human dignity and needs are not being met. This does not mean that slavery is good, simply that some chose it over starving to death.

[The Onion Kniggit]

Nothing in Essos outside the Free Cities really makes much sense so it shouldn't come across as a surprise that everyone seems to be a hand-rubbing mustache twirling villain waiting to rip the next baby born from their mother's arms and eat them or something.

That said it's pretty clear that GRRM did this so that no matter how brutal and draconian Dany actions are, it seems justified given that the people she are dealing with a one-dimensional twisted morons who pretty much do evil shit for the lulz

[Winter's Knight]

I think the mob at Kings Landing would not have stopped at jeering, if they had the chance.

But, I think the culture of Slavers Bay has become even worse than most.

I mean there's a big difference between hunger and poverty coalescing into a riot in KL and the top 1% kidnapping and enslaving people from around the world for their own personal profit.

The two are not even remotely comparable.

Edited to correct pronouns.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Nobody deserves any punishment for the actions of their ancestors.

Ever.

This is incredibly backwards thinking.

Edit: The meaning may sound ambiguous, but no sarcasm is being employed here.

I in no way implied that she should be punished only that it is right for her to be an emancipator of slaves given the history of her people. Had the Doom not come to Valyria, the practice would still be alive and well. The Valyrians were on a course for enslaving any people they could find to mine their gold and silver and iron. You cannot say the history of a people has no place in the present. I'm sorry, you can say and believe anything you wish. It does not to me make any sense that where we come from is not important to who we have become.

Evolving from slave masters into emancipators is a good thing.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

I'll like to say that in 600 years or so we'll all be viewed as disgusting savages who condoned vile concepts and ideals.

We don't know what it is but we are raised to believe whatever it is, it's perfectly okay. The slavers have spent 1000s and 1000s of years believing slavery is okay and a vital part of their culture. It's unfair to just say " oh well they should know better" because they really don't. If you try teaching them how it's wrong you'll begin the process of removing slavery. Killing them is just terrible and won't remove the concept.

That being said, Dany isn't in the wrong either, she's trying her best to combat it with what she knows she's just got a hot temper sometimes. She also doesn't support the idea of killing all the slavers.

PS, I believe slavery to be up there with rape, genocide and other seriously disgusting acts. I shouldn't have to say this but I feel like I have to.

PSS. also pigs are smarter than dogs and arguably more noble yet we eat them with no issue.

[Lady Blackmont]

I am merely saying that punishment is wrong, not acknowledging one's history.

We cannot persecute people for their ancestors crimes. If you think this is acceptable, then I see no reason to continue debating.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I am merely saying that punishment is wrong, not acknowledging one's history.

We cannot persecute people for their ancestors crimes. If you think this is acceptable, then I see no reason to continue debating.

Punishment is not always wrong. You have to have context. I am not arguing here, I am simply stating that in my opinion, it is right for someone who's people were notorious slavers to become an emancipator.

If, as we all suspect, Dany becomes the head of her family and continues her line, she will have given the Targaryens/Valyrians a fresh start as a people. People who love freedom and wish it for everyone not only themselves. You went a long way there from what I said to persecution. I didn't even bring punishment into this, you did.

It is ironic that Danaerys, the descendent of slavers has changed the game plan entirely and wants all of the world to be free. This is a good thing. I cannot say it any plainer than that.