The merits of Tyrion as a dragonrider

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

those are three separate points against the crappy theory, not part of a single argument.

(1) It is crap because Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion aren't aware that they are kin to the present-day Plumms.

(2) It is crap because it makes little sense to assume that any major house would take a bride from the impoverished House Plumm which is actually a bastard branch of House Targaryen, and that the Lannisters, in turn, would take such tainted blood into their own family. Even Kevan is too noble to marry his son to a Westerling girl - Jason Lannister may have been married off to an older woman but we have no reason to believe that Jason's wife was descended from Viserys Plumm. You are making the positive claim here that this is the case, and you have nothing to back it up.

(3) There is no evidence that there was a Plumm girl that could marry into House Prester. If you build a theory you should have been something to base it on. Just claiming that there could have been such a girl doesn't make it so. The Penrose girls are they - why aren't you working with them?

If Tyrion isn't Dany's half-brother he could very well use Dragonbinder to become a dragonrider. But then it would be more interesting if he had no Targaryen blood at all. Making him a dragonrider with the little dragonlord blood he would have if he was Elaena's descendant would be stressing credibility a lot. The man is a dwarf - he shouldn't even have the success Quentyn had.

[lidsa]

One the one hand, I think he just plain doesn't deserve it. He's already gotten away with so much that it's getting unbelievable that he should now get to ride a dragon too, which was always his dream (which is why I think it won't happen, tbh).

But it would be interesting if Tyrion would try and destroy Casterly Rock with a dragon, if the dragon's fire was strong enough already to melt stone.

That's the only reason why I would want Tyrion on a dragon.

Although I don't think there will still be three dragons left when Dany comes to Westeros.

[Chinoiserie]

And suddenly, I warmed to the theory.

Although I'm not sure how you'd write this in a novel. Maybe we're seeing Dany's attack on KL from Cersei's PoV, and she's being snide and dismissive, and then she sees Tyrion on Viserion's back, and the rest of the chapter is just solid red pages with no words. :)

Cersei burns King's Landing, goes to Casterly Rock and then Tyrion arrives to take it with Viserion :)

Not that this is certain to happen but it is possible for Cersei to see Tyrion with a dragon I think.

[Grayce Hornwood]

Yes, it if happens it will be meaningful. GRRM does not write crap.

And the last person who tried to claim a dragon and got roasted didn't have much intellect or wit. Those two things may be what's required to tame a dragon with whom you have previously had no bond. All three dragons imprinted on Daenerys at birth. Anyone else trying to ride them needs all the help they can get.

Honestly, no matter what else anyone thinks about Tyrion riding a dragon, it would be worth it just for the look on Cersei's face.

And NOW you've convinced me, haha. The look on Cersei's face would be priceless, for sure. :lol:

[Chinoiserie]

One the one hand, I think he just plain doesn't deserve it. He's already gotten away with so much that it's getting unbelievable that he should now get to ride a dragon too, which was always his dream (which is why I think it won't happen, tbh).

Well by the same argument Jon really does not deserve a dragon either. Jon never wanted one true, but I do not think that wanting something should make something impossible to get, if that is true for asoif it is really nihilism.

[Lord Varys]

If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider he'll aim at a bigger price than that stupid rock. As a dragonrider he can become King himself, or at least Prince Consort. Dragons are power - look what the dragonseeds did during the Dance. I'm not sure why he should remained fixed on Casterly Rock if he can have the Iron Throne. He was close to it before, and it is quite clear that he liked sitting on that thing.

Bastard birth or lack of legal claims/royal blood no longer matter when you a dragonrider in a world which hasn't seen dragons for nearly 150 years.

[UnmaskedLurker]

While I'd be perfectly fine with Tyrion not being revealed the son of Aerys nor becoming a dragon rider (although I rather believe it will happen), I think it will be interesting to see how he reacts to his new power and even more to his recognition by Daenerys and her supporters if he's revealed of Targ blood.

Will the perceived prejudice he was victim of as a weak dwarf make him use this new power to go on with purely destructive revenge plans ? Or will he (try to) use this new prestige to try to build an happier life than he ever dreamed (a dragon knight being a bit sexier than some monstruous dwarf, will it help him to finally find love, convince the western lords to support his claim, etc... ?) ? Will it make him even more ambitious, and target the crown for himself, or will he become a loyal supporter of his new family (and which side, Dany or Aegon ?) ? How will it impact his relations with characters he knew in his previous life ? Will this new power make him realise that power only comes with responsabilities ? Etc...

As everything big happening in a character life, it can trigger interesting character evolution, so I wouldn't resume Tyrion getting a dragon to "author favorite being unfairly rewarded with the dragon he dreamed of and becoming a Mary Sue" like detractors of this scenario tend to, before even reading how it will happen, and what kind of evolution it will trigger, if true.

Tyrion dragonrider has huge potential because it's giving a lot of agency to one of the most interesting, complex, and grey character, whose arc direction is very hard to predict.

Assuming that Tyrion rides a dragon, I think we know that at some point he does the "right thing" and fights in the battle for the dawn 2.0 in order to save humanity. His path to get to that decision might be circuitous, but if he rides a dragon then he is part of the prophecized three heads of the dragon who have been "seen" saving the world. One way or another (usually not in the way imagined, but in some way), the prophecies always come true. The 3HD prophecy is not going to be an exception.

I don't think, however, that all of that "savior business" will lead to a happy ending for Tyrion. He very well might die at the end of the war or otherwise fade into obscurity (like after the battle of blackwater). But at a minimum, we have some idea that if he rides a dragon -- then he has a destiny to fulfill -- it has been seen and so it will happen.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Cersei burns King's Landing, goes to Casterly Rock and then Tyrion arrives to take it with Viserion :)

Not that this is certain to happen but it is possible for Cersei to see Tyrion with a dragon I think.

I was thinking more like buzzing the Red Keep and watching the cup of wine fall from Cersei's hand and smash on the floor.

Tyrion won't be taking the Rock with a dragon. He'll lead Dany's forces in through the sewers. Foreshadowed both by Tyrion's having been in charge of the sewers back home, and the taking of Meereen.

[Lord Freypie]

Assuming that Tyrion rides a dragon, I think we know that at some point he does the "right thing" and fights in the battle for the dawn 2.0 in order to save humanity. His path to get to that decision might be circuitous, but if he rides a dragon then he is part of the prophecized three heads of the dragon who have been "seen" saving the world. One way or another (usually not in the way imagined, but in some way), the prophecies always come true. The 3HD prophecy is not going to be an exception.

I don't think, however, that all of that "savior business" will lead to a happy ending for Tyrion. He very well might die at the end of the war or otherwise fade into obscurity (like after the battle of blackwater). But at a minimum, we have some idea that if he rides a dragon -- then he has a destiny to fulfill -- it has been seen and so it will happen.

Are the 3 heads really prophetized to save the world ? The only making the link between promised prince and 3 heads, is agonizing Aemon iirc, and it's not even clear how he relates them.

In Twoiaf many legend involving from one to many characters saved the world in first long night; letting open lots of scenarios for repeated history.

In Asoiaf the most prophetized thing is about one hero (Azor Ahai reborn) sacrifying someone (Nissa Nissa) to get the needed weapon to save the world, imagining they are actual characters (ie : Jon and Daenerys) I see one head missing.

Or imagining the dragons are lightbringer (Daenerys being AAR and Drogo her Nissa Nissa), it doesn't necessarily involve the other 2 original riders (dragons may well be warged by Bran or taken by new riders, or just act alone).

It may be said dragon has 3 heads is surely linked with Targaryan restoration and Targaryan restoration to uniting the realm with the promised prince at its head, which is needed to fight the Others. It doesn't mean the 3 heads have to be directly involved in the battle for dawn.

(but I may have forgot or missed something...)

[lidsa]

Well by the same argument Jon really does not deserve a dragon either.

I totally agree, actually.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Are the 3 heads really prophetized to save the world ? The only making the link between promised prince and 3 heads, is agonizing Aemon iirc, and it's not even clear how he relates them.

In Twoiaf many legend involving from one to many characters saved the world in first long night; letting open lots of scenarios for repeated history.

In Asoiaf the most prophetized thing is about one hero (Azor Ahai reborn) sacrifying someone (Nissa Nissa) to get the needed weapon to save the world, imagining they are actual characters (ie : Jon and Daenerys) I see one head missing.

Or imagining the dragons are lightbringer (Daenerys being AAR and Drogo her Nissa Nissa), it doesn't necessarily involve the other 2 original riders (dragons may well be warged by Bran or taken by new riders, or just act alone).

It may be said dragon has 3 heads is surely linked with Targaryan restoration and Targaryan restoration to uniting the realm with the promised prince at its head, which is needed to fight the Others. It doesn't mean the 3 heads have to be directly involved in the battle for dawn.

(but I may have forgot or missed something...)

There are other reference to the 3HD. The central reference is by Rhaegar in the HotU vision. He states that the dragon has three heads so there must be one more. In context, having just stated that Aegon is TPTWP, it seems clear that Rhaegar believes that he will have 3 children who will work together as the 3HD to save humanity. We are told elsewhere that when Rhaegar thought that he himself was TPTWP, he started training to be a warrior. So that information is consistent with your statement about a "savior" hero. But when Rhaegar tells Elia that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads, logically, I believe it means that TPTWP prophecy includes some reference to 3HD being part of the battle. Otherwise, why would Rhaegar say that there "must" be one more?

In the vision, Dany is separately told that the dragon has three heads. Jorah later tells her that it might be a reference to the Targ sigil -- but I think we can safely assume that Jorah is only partially correct and that the 3HD, while connected to House Targ, is more than just a simple reference to House Targ.

Your reference to Aemon saying that he is too old to be one of the heads to help Dany (who he thinks might be TPTWP) also makes it clear that in the communications between Rhaegar and Aemon, they both assumed that TPTWP would be assisted by two other Targs to be the 3HD. Something in the prophecy led them to that conclusion. While Aemon and Rhaegar were not very good at interpreting exactly who is being referenced in the prophecy (the both get TPTWP wrong, IMHO, for example) but they know everything there is to know about the prophecy. If they think the prophecy includes a reference to a 3HD being critical to the battle, then the prophecy includes such a reference.

Of course, it is up to us to try to figure out what the 3HD in the prophecy really means. But some way or other, the prophecy will be fulfilled so there will be a 3HD. I think the most logical conclusion is that the 3 heads are Jon (TPTWP), Dany and Tyrion. I know others disagree, but this thread is premised on the assumption that Tyrion rides a dragon, and if he does, it is strong support for the conclusion that he is one of the 3 heads, and if he is, then he plays a critical role in the BftD 2.0.

[firepoet]

Keep in mind that the endgame -- I think -- is a big battle with the Others. Tyrion's intellect and wit are not going to be particularly useful in such a battle. Riding a dragon would be. While perhaps his talents could be useful in figuring out how to get everyone to stop worrying about the game or thrones and start worrying about the threat from the North. But he would play an even bigger role as one of the 3 war generals, riding in on a dragon. Personally, I suspect (although I am not 100% certain) that such is both his destiny and will be written in a way that will be quite satisfying for his story arc. Of course, some people will not find it satisfying, but no one can please everyone all the time.

A big battle to save the day would be a fantasy trope, which George hates. He's also a pacifist who hates war, and I doubt he's going to have war save the day. There probably will be a battle against the others, but the real hero will do something subtler behind the scenes. Maybe seek out the children and make another deal, like the last Hero did.

[chrisdaw]

A final battle that draws together characters and plot threads from all the books in one huge climax, what a fantasy trope, no way George would go for that.

[Lord Varys]

He'll do exactly that since he has stated as much in the original outline.

[UnmaskedLurker]

A final battle that draws together characters and plot threads from all the books in one huge climax, what a fantasy trope, no way George would go for that.

You actually believe that GRRM does not engage in tropes? How cute.

ETA: In all seriousness, I agree that victory will come from more than just defeat of the Others in a big battle. My personal pet theory is that Jon will do something that puts an "end" to magic, which leads to the death of the Others, the dragons, etc., etc. But even if my pet theory turns out to be incorrect (as I agree it very well might), I think it is still highly likely that something more than "just" a big battle with happen. But a big battle is more or less inevitable and will be critical to holding off the Others long enough so that whatever needs to be done to "win" is able to be done.

[Greg B]

No way GRRM will use fantasy tropes in his series about the Dragon Queen and the Lost Prince.

[Lord Freypie]

A big battle to save the day would be a fantasy trope, which George hates. He's also a pacifist who hates war, and I doubt he's going to have war save the day. There probably will be a battle against the others, but the real hero will do something subtler behind the scenes. Maybe seek out the children and make another deal, like the last Hero did.

You know there's some kind of fantasy trope where there's a big battle but the real hero do something subtler behind the scenes like destroying a ring.

[Monoman32]

Well by the same argument Jon really does not deserve a dragon either. Jon never wanted one true, but I do not think that wanting something should make something impossible to get, if that is true for asoif it is really nihilism.

Well given that Jon might be the only character who would not use Dragon for his own personal and instead use Dragons to save the world, he might be the only character who actually deserves a Dragon.

[sweetsunray]

Well by the same argument Jon really does not deserve a dragon either. Jon never wanted one true, but I do not think that wanting something should make something impossible to get, if that is true for asoif it is really nihilism.

The only character that gets to live out its dream is Hot Pie. Almost all the other characters never get what they want, but what they need.

[Lord Varys]

Daenerys gave the world the dragons back. That in itself is a pretty big confirmation that she is the promised princess since that guy is supposed to do just that. Anybody else waking metaphoric dragons from stone can do that but he'll always pale in comparison to her. Not to mention that anyone claiming one of her dragons will be just tagging along for the ride - she has brought them back into the world, and all the other guys are either plagiarists or coming too late.

Anyone interpreting the comet in ACoK came too late, too. He was first seen in AGoT.