Ser Hightower Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 1. Mel birthing a shadow baby leads me to believe R'hllor is real. Also the visions she has in flames coming true is strong supporting evidence. IF R'hllor is true does that mean The Great Other is true as well? 2. The Faceless God scares me so I just like to believe he's real. 3. The Seven seem fake to me. 4. The drowned god I'm not so sure about. Your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sorcery is obviously real, with different cultural traditions, but if I had to guess I'd say no gods exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Gods do not exist. Magic exists. Different religions tap into magic in different ways and with different levels of success/potency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberdirectorfreedom Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 All fake. All I see from the Red Priests is magic, nothing divine about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lydia Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I don't think the gods are real. To me, they are just inventions the ASOIAF people needed to explain the world and have a sense of security that also allowed them to create a culture - and they deposited the "blame" for the world as it was on these gods doorsteps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hightower Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 So if you say there's no gods then do you also say there's no prophecies? So no Azor Ahai, no tPwwP? Isn't Azor Ahai technically sent by R'hllor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Shadowbinding is nothing to do with R'hllor. Visions are magic. Gods are not real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Niemietz Braz Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 There is only one God, Death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hightower Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I ask again, are R'hllor and Azor Ahai mutually exclusive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I ask again, are R'hllor and Azor Ahai mutually exclusive? No. That questions doesn't make sense. They could both exist. Or they could both not exist. Or one could exist without the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lydia Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 So if you say there's no gods then do you also say there's no prophecies? So no Azor Ahai, no tPwwP? Isn't Azor Ahai technically sent by R'hollor? Can't speak for everyone, but... No, AA is an invention of the Red Priests - not saying he isn't real, just that the Red Priests are using him to back up their sayings about R'hllor's existence. In terms of religion, it's surprising that none of the RP we've met say anything about how R'hllor created the world and began his war with the Great Other, how they created humanity/the Others and so on, like we know the world came into existence out of chaos in Greek mythology. I don't boubt AA's existence, and believe there is/will be a prince that was promised, but it has more to do with magic than with religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroclasticFlow Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The only real god is the one people rely on for food, shelter, pleasure, jobs, and future. The Iron Bank of Braavos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 So if you say there's no gods then do you also say there's no prophecies? So no Azor Ahai, no tPwwP? Isn't Azor Ahai technically sent by R'hllor? I think you can have real prophecy or "divination magic" without real gods. For a real messiah figure (AA or anyone else), you probably do need some supernatural teleology or pattern in history (e.g. Fate, multiple iterations of the Matrix, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberdirectorfreedom Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 So if you say there's no gods then do you also say there's no prophecies? So no Azor Ahai, no tPwwP? Isn't Azor Ahai technically sent by R'hllor? I don't believe in the prophecies (they're far too open ended, basically anything could fulfill them), but regardless of whether or not they are real, I don't think they have anything to do with the Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hightower Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I don't believe in the prophecies (they're far too open ended, basically anything could fulfill them), but regardless of whether or not they are real, I don't think they have anything to do with the Gods. I don't think Thoros of Myr praying for Beric to return to life counts as "magic." It seems much more like divine intervention to me. In my opinion, RLJ and the events at the TOJ pretty much solidifies The Prince who was Promised prophecy as truth. I'm a little more skeptical about Azor Ahai but I do think we'll have him "reborn" as well. Most individuals argue magic, shadowbinding, e.t.c. on this thread and not gods, but why don't worshipers of the "seven" experience any divine intervention or magic such as the experience between Thoros and Beric? I think individuals manipulate magic for good and bad (Mel, Victarion, e.t.c.) but I think the source, or "mana" (for lack of a better term) for their magic is definitely through a higher being(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Like everyone else has pointed out, magic is real, gods are not. With that being said I would also like to point out the Red priests don't do the shadow babies, shadowbinders do, which is a different group of people. Mel just happens to be both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 And here we go again... With the risk of sounding like Uncle Vernon, there are no such thing as real and false deities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberdirectorfreedom Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I don't think Thoros of Myr praying for Beric to return to life counts as "magic." It seems much more like divine intervention to me. In my opinion, RLJ and the events at the TOJ pretty much solidifies The Prince who was Promised prophecy as truth. I'm a little more skeptical about Azor Ahai but I do think we'll have him "reborn" as well. Most individuals argue magic, shadowbinding, e.t.c. on this thread and not gods, but why don't worshipers of the "seven" experience any divine intervention or magic such as the experience between Thoros and Beric? I think individuals manipulate magic for good and bad (Mel, Victarion, e.t.c.) but I think the source, or "mana" (for lack of a better term) for their magic is definitely through a higher being(s). Regarding Thoros and Beric, there are two questions: "Could it be Divine Intervention?" and "Could it be Magic?" Unfortunately, the answer to both questions is yes. So then it's a choice of which you believe. Without a doubt, magic exists in the world. There is, however, some doubt as to whether or not the Gods exist. That is why I believe it was simply magic; it's the more believable answer. Furthering this, if, for instance, all of R'hllor's "miracles" can be explained away by magic, what are we left with to believe in the Gods? Faith. Because I'm lacking in the faith department, I then believe that there are no Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddragonfly Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I thought we learnt in the house of black and white, that, they are all different faces of the same god. The seven are all representations of different aspects of one god. people who practice different religions do so in different ways, worshippers of the seven just pray, but worshippers of R'hllor (and others) practice magic, but they are all worshipping the same god. I was wondering if this has something to do with why the dothraki take religious statue from the cities they attack to vaes dothrak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methuselah Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 To an extent it becomes a philosophical question. As others have said, I think the ASOI&F world has been shown to have a level of magic (which seems to be increasing as the story progresses). Whether this magic is the manifestation of some deity or the tapping into some nebulous force or the inherent previously untapped skills and talents of certain humans is a question that I don't think will ever be answered in the books. (At least judging by some of Martin's earlier short works). I don't think we'll have an Ann Rice type explanation of a demon entering into a wounded human to form vampires kind of thing). As far as the magic that has been demonstrated, we've seen it from several different "religions": - R'hollor as has been discussed up thread.- The drowned god (through Patchface and his "prophecies")- The old gods through things like the Weirwood network, warging, etc.- Even science or "mad" science with Robert Strong.- Dragons - not really a religion but I think they are a manifestation of magic (though things like Dire-wolves, mammoths and even giants can be explained naturally, I don't think dragons really can)- Whatever religion or religions Maggie the Frog and the Ghost of High Heart are- Many Faced god with things like the face wearing/changing I'm kind of undecided on the Seven. Certainly their trial by combat record is less than impressive. Got it right in Tyrion's first one, got it wrong in Tyrion's second one albeit kind of on a technicality (Viper died before the Mountain), got it wrong in the Hound/Dondarion one unless you buy into some sort of "just following orders" defense. Now things like working a change in the soul of people like the Hound and even Lancel and allowing the sort of inexplicable rise to power of the sparrows and especially the High Sparrow could be argued to be form of magic if you look at it a certain way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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