Ned Ashara & broken promises. (NOT N+A=J)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

From the moment I read about Ned's broken promises this has stuck in my mind and for some reason I have never thought to start a thread about it.

 

So I was thinking that one of Ned’s broken promises he thinks about is his relationship with Ashara. I believe that he and Ashara had something more than just a dance during the ToHH. I believe that they had been secretly engaged and had sex when Allyria was conceived. But after the Tourney and after Brandon’s death Ned had to marry Cat and thus he broke his promise to Ashara. For that reason Ashara killed herself. The birth of her daughter, post partum depression, along with Ned’s marriage caused her to jump because she had *lost* everything. For that reason I believe that Ned had created that narrow minded sense of honor. Because the only time he left himself go he lost more than his honor; he lost his love, his daughter and his family. That is also the reason he demanded all those gossips about Ashara to stop, because he felt like “dishonoring” her and betraying her for one more time and he couldn’t stand it.

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think?

 

[Nights Kings Queen]

Not implausible. I like it! But who's allyria?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Not implausible. I like it! But who's allyria?

Allyria is Ashara's so called sister who was betrothed with Beric, Ned's aunt who told him about Ned and Ashara.

[Nights Kings Queen]

Thanks. That makes sense

[Minuteman]

The only issue I have with Ashara's daughter still being alive is why would the Daynes hide her existence? They are Dornish and the Dornish don't have the same feelings toward bastards as the other kingdoms do. And it isn't something that would taint Ashara either it seems as the very unchaste Arianne Martell doesn't cause any scandal to her father or diminish the chances of making a good match for her. I think that Ned and Ashara did consummate their relationship (the dance was night one and the tourney went on for four more so plenty of time to do more than dance) but I don't see as why there would be any ruse to hide a bastard behind a story of a stillborn birth. My thinking is that Ashara and Ned had a stillborn daughter. Jon was in the custody of Ashara at Starfall due to Lyanna being too sick and feverish to care for him. Jon, having the Stark look, was adopted by Ashara in lieu of her own dead child and when Ned showed up to take Jon to be raised by his new Tully wife a despondent Ashara took her own life.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

They are Dornish and the Dornish don't have the same feelings toward bastards as the other kingdoms do.

I think that is about men. We know about Dornish men with bastards but I cannot remember if we have a case about a Dornish woman with a bastard. Also Ashara's status about the most beautiful woman around makes her a desirable bride for all Westerosi and not just Dornish and outside of Dorne a woman with an alive bastard could be a reason for not marrying her. So since Ashara could be a non-Dornish Lady even for a Great House, Edmure anyone?, having an alive daughter would had decrease her chances of a *good* marriage.

The reason I think that Allyria is her daughter as I said at the Allyria SnowSand thread, is because I find it very strange why she had been betrothed with Beric since 294 and wasn’t married in 298. Which for me means that she was too young to marry but not too young to be betrothed so she could had been born around 281 or 282.

[Balerion the kitten]

Makes sense, but I still (unenthusiastically) ship brandon and ashara.

Gonna quote something I said just recently

The Stark ashara looked to was probably brandon, IMO

If it was it explains

Ned liked Ashara but Brandon slept with her, causing Ned's "bitterness". Plus it fits better with Brandon's character to dishonor ashara than it does Ned's. Since we got more of an insight of Brandon's character in a dance.

That's about the only thing that supports the idea of B+A=J, the fact that brandon and ashara might have had something going on.

[Consigliere]

I think that if Allyria turns out to be Ashara's daughter then it is much more likely that Brandon is the father. If Ned had a more intimate relationship with Ashara, as you suggest, then I find it a bit odd that Ned does not spare a single thought for the woman he supposedly loved in any of his 15 POV chapters. The only women Ned expresses any amount of affection towards in his POV are his wife, daughters, and Lyanna.

That is also the reason he demanded all those gossips about Ashara to stop, because he felt like “dishonoring” her and betraying her for one more time and he couldn’t stand it.

I think that Ned was simply putting a stop to all talk concerning the identity of Jon's mother.

[sweetsunray]

Completely agree with the OP.

Yes, the Daynes are Dornish and seem less put off with natural born children. However, the Daynes are not Rhoynish, nor Andal even. They have been a house since the First Men, just like the Starks. And there are 3 type of Dornish, with the Daynes being the stoney Dornish. While a bastard is not treated badly, they don't have the same chances for prosperous marriages or inheritance. This is even true for the Martells. And it might have been something that might have put off Lord Rickard Stark to agree and negotiate with the Daynes about a betrothal between Ned and Ashara.

Ashara would have had her child before the start of the rebellion or around the beginning if it was conceived during the ToHH. In fact her child would have been of age with Aegon. Obviously there was no official betrothal yet between Ned and Ashara. The reason for that would have been that Lord Rickard would have wanted a) his first son Brandon to marry Catelyn before announcing another betrothal b ) avoid rumors that the betrothal was a forced match because of Ashara being pregnant. Lord Rickard thus may have required for Ashara to deliver her child in secret, far away from the court, and her parents decided to pass it off as their own. Since Ashara and Ned were supposed to get married unofficially, they would have arguments to consider Ashara's child not to be a bastard, but because of Lrod Rickard's demands could not have Ashara claim it as her own.

There's no evidence for it, but it would be a reasonable explanation.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Makes sense, but I still (unenthusiastically) ship brandon and ashara.

Gonna quote something I said just recently

I think that if he was angry with Brandon he wouldn't had named his son Brandon. No matter that it was a family name, you simply don't name your son after someone who you are angry with.

[Black Dragons]

==I believe in this theory Brandon and Ashara = Jon Snow but other theories I believe in there is A+L=Jon Snow but nobody likes (Aerys and Lyanna) that Mad King rape her and Rhaegar offer to take over the role has father of child and did her marry in secret.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

==I believe in this theory Brandon and Ashara = Jon Snow but other theories I believe in there is A+L=Jon Snow but nobody likes (Aerys and Lyanna) that Mad King rape her and Rhaegar offer to take over the role has father of child and did her marry in secret.

I have already said that this isn't an N+L=J. I know what many of you might say; Ned is too honorable, Brandon is more a player who could had done it and so on. Which is great, you have your opinion and that is fine. But this is about Ned and Ashara so could we please stay on topic?

[oursisthefury69]

Well your definitely stretching/getting defensive with that one. 1. Its seemingly the biggest family ser name in the series 2. He didnt name his first born Brandon 3. Most importantly, Its not as if he cant be simultaneously bitter/angry/resentful towards his dead brother and still not hold a certain amount of affection for him to the point of naming one of his sons after him. And its not a matter of "thinking" he was resentful towards Brandon, he was, its in the book.

To the OP and overall premise, I don't mind the idea at first and broadly, pointing out that Allyria could very well be of an age where it worked, but your definitely sticking to Ned being the father to strictly; And more importantly, think your trying to make something out of Neds "broken promises" which i really don't think is some separate broken promise he actually entirely broke and never thought of, as people are seeming to try to make it into recently; i think it has to simply do with not properly fulfilling his promise to Lyanna with respect how Jon was raised (which is a point i certainly could prove if i cared to expand more as its still being hammered home in book 5)

Also, it somewhat blows my mind that you can know enough about the series to come up with this concept yet still blindly believe Ashara actualy jumped from wherever as its always mentioned her body was never found, that isnt done for no good reason.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well your definitely stretching/getting defensive with that one. 1. Its seemingly the biggest family ser name in the series 2. He didnt name his first born Brandon 3. Most importantly, Its not as if he cant be simultaneously bitter/angry/resentful towards his dead brother and still not hold a certain amount of affection for him to the point of naming one of his sons after him. And its not a matter of "thinking" he was resentful towards Brandon, he was, its in the book.

I don't see yout point. My point was clear, no one would had named his son after a brother who betrayed him no matter if it was a family name.

Also, it somewhat blows my mind that you can know enough about the series to come up with this concept yet still blindly believe Ashara actualy jumped from wherever as its always mentioned her body was never found, that isnt done for no good reason.

I have already said that the OP "post partum depression" and yes I don't think that Ashara is alive because I don't see how it would be possible.

[oursisthefury69]

I don't see yout point. My point was clear, no one would had named his son after a brother who betrayed him no matter if it was a family name.

Your point was clear and im saying its probably wrong. Your point here is doing the debate for me, he never would have and didnt as Brandon never "betrayed" him. Zero evidence he ever "betrayed" him, some evidence he resented him to an extent (probably alot to do with him getting his father killed and all but lets just ignore that)

I have already said that the OP "post partum depression" and yes I don't think that Ashara is alive because I don't see how it would be possible.

Are you reading what our responding too or after 15000 posts does it all just start too blur together?

Also, it somewhat blows my mind that you can know enough about the series to come up with this concept yet still blindly believe Ashara actualy jumped from wherever as its always mentioned her body was never found, that isnt done for no good reason.

1. K, not sure how you even begin to think you repointing out and pompously quoting "post partum depression" as if your amongst an elite group that understands the definition

2. I understand you dont think Ashara is alive, i can read the post, not that I even put that forth yet/here; Again pomposity being taken note of, yes, I don't see how it would be possible for her to magically survive a suicide jump either, the point would be that she DIDNT JUMP. And if she is alive still it would be "possible" presumably because she maintains an ability to breathe and provide herself with sustenance neccesary for life

3. As its Always noted that ASHARA'S BODY WAS NOT FOUND. GRRM does not put things in these books FOR ZERO REASON.

How is this a response to that? It isnt, and i assume you just circle around the point while still acknowledging it rather than simply ignore it like some politician because you don;t have the gumption to say something to the effect of "oh well its always noted her body wasnt fond for reasons of strict Bs"

[Ser Leftwich]

Another thing to consider is the 'kidnapping' of Lyanna and how Ned might feel guilty about it.

We now have reason to believe she was taken near Harrenhal.

We also know that Brandon was relatively in the vicinity; tending to the post-duel errand and then headed back up the Kingsroad to meet Rickard.

Would Ned have been in charge of watching his sister at some point? Maybe he left her in the guard of the Whents, so that Ned could go to see Ashara? Or Ashara was at Harrenhal (though I can't think of a good reason why)? Or there was a Brandon, Lyanna, Ashara, and meet up for conversation?

Was Ned supposed to hand Lyanna off to Brandon and Brandon did not show up?

Ned wanted to head up the Vale to visit Jon and Robert. And we know that Ned was at that time either in the Vale or en route to the Vale.

[William MK Stark]

I think people usually overlook the parallel between set between Ned and Robb in this matter.

Robb married Jeyne after he slept with her for fear of dishonoring her family and fathering a bastard, despite having already been promised to a Frey. Since Robb is so much his father's son, his action would be similar to him, meaning that had Ned slept with Ashara, he would have in no way abandoned her for Cat, even if it meant losing a political support.

Plus if he were so guilty about her, why wouldn't he think of her once during his entire AGOT arc( as he did Lyanna) as well as having no reaction when Cersei brought her up?

[ValyrianCode]

I think people usually overlook the parallel between set between Ned and Robb in this matter.

Robb married Jeyne after he slept with her for fear of dishonoring her family and fathering a bastard, despite having already been promised to a Frey. Since Robb is so much his father's son, his action would be similar to him, meaning that had Ned slept with Ashara, he would have in no way abandoned her for Cat, even if it meant losing a political support.

Plus if he were so guilty about her, why wouldn't he think of her once during his entire AGOT arc( as he did Lyanna) as well as having no reaction when Cersei brought her up?

I agree with this and love the parallels that go beyond what you mentioned... Bot Ned and Rob loved woman whose houses were sworn bannermen of their enemy's. Yet opposite.... Once robert's war started Ned couldnt marry Ashara anymore. I think Ned's bitterness stems not from jealousy that all was meant for Brandon, but out of having everything that was his brother forced upon him; this keeping him from the one he desired (Ashara)

[Balerion the kitten]

I think that if he was angry with Brandon he wouldn't had named his son Brandon. No matter that it was a family name, you simply don't name your son after someone who you are angry with.

Well Ned was listed as the "quiet wolf", I seems likely he didn't express these feelings, to brandon or ashara. Since quiet "wolf" isn't unlike a shy "wolf".

His resentment might come from the fact that Brandon was the hot shot. He was better looking than Ned, more charismatic than Ned, and just a better deal than Ned. Qualities that might have been attractive to ashara.

Hence his bitterness, to brandon and ashara (getting insanely pissed off when catelyn asked if Jon was her son).

Not because he felt betrayed, but because he felt jealous. So in that sense Ned wouldn't see it as a betrayal. He could still forgive his brother because his brother didn't know of his feelings, and his brother still cared for him, and vice versa

I think people usually overlook the parallel between set between Ned and Robb in this matter.

Robb married Jeyne after he slept with her for fear of dishonoring her family and fathering a bastard, despite having already been promised to a Frey. Since Robb is so much his father's son, his action would be similar to him, meaning that had Ned slept with Ashara, he would have in no way abandoned her for Cat, even if it meant losing a political support.

Plus if he were so guilty about her, why wouldn't he think of her once during his entire AGOT arc( as he did Lyanna) as well as having no reaction when Cersei brought her up?

Agreed

[Slowpoke Martin]

==I believe in this theory Brandon and Ashara = Jon Snow

What? If that was the case, Ned would never had to conceal Jon as his bastard. There would be no need for secrecy or for Cat to be the stubborn bitch that she was to Jon.