sweetsunray

The Slayer of Lies

223 posts in this topic

The best lies have a kernel of truth in them, as well as try to deceive you by having you make assumptions.

While the complete HotU prophecies are complex, I want to focus on the deception, lies and truths about the three visions tied to Dany's title "Slayer of Lies"

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies (aCoK, Daenerys IV)

I will argue that all three are related to three different false claimants to the same title, namely that of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised, and that Daenerys being Azor Ahai is actually the third lie.

Identifying who is portrayed in the first two visions

1) Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

A sword like "Lightbringer", and "blue eyed king" points us very easily to Stannis Baratheon. The "no shadow" part confirms this conclusion because Stannis basically gave his shadow to Melisandre to make shadowbabies.

Melisandre believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai and the Ashai prophecies speak of this hero carrying the sword called Lightbringer. She stages a burning of the false gods of the 7, and has Stannis grab a burning sword and claim it.

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!" (aCoK, Davos I)

"A sword of fire!" shouted Queen Selyse. Ser Axell Florent and the other queen's men took up the cry. "A sword of fire! It burns! It burns! A sword of fire!"
Melisandre lifted her hands above her head. "Behold! A sign was promised, and now a sign is seen! Behold Lightbringer! Azor Ahai has come again! All hail the Warrior of Light! All hail the Son of Fire!"

A ragged wave of shouts gave answer, just as Stannis's glove began to smolder. Cursing, the king thrust the point of the sword into the damp earth and beat out the flames against his leg.(aCoK, Davos I)
Stannis Baratheon has "blue eyes"

His eyes were open wounds beneath his heavy brows, a blue as dark as the sea by night.(aCoK, Prologue)
Stannis used his shadow to make shadowbabies with Melisandre: one for Renly and Courtney Penrose. After that his shadow is spent. In other words, Stannis has no shadow left (figuratively speaking) anymore to cast shadowbabies anymore.
Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.
He knew that shadow. As he knew the man who'd cast it.(aCoK, Davos III)

"Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him."(aSoS, Davos III)

2) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

A cloth dragon, or a mummer's dragon is a puppet, a tool. Ever since aDwD came out it clear to most that the popular "cloth dragon" is Aegon who claims to be Rhaegar's son, swapped for the pisswater prince as a baby, and thus not actually killed by the Mountain, and he is Varys and Illyrio's tool to gain a king for them in Westeros. As either a Blackfyre or a Targaryen he would be a dragon.

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."
"So power is a mummer's trick?"
"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow." (aCoK, Tyrion II)

(BTW as we know via Davos and Catelyn's POV: yes shadows can kill) Varys was once part of a mummer's troupe. So Aegon in that sense at the very least is a mummer's dragon, a cloth dragon.

I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing. "One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. (aCoK, Tyrion X)

Illyrio portrays the perfect situation to introduce a savior for Westeros, and makes Tyrion believe initially this savior would be Daenerys, but actually it is Aegon who is to be Varys' and Illyrio's mummer's dragon, preferably married to Dany and having her 3 dragons.

"Are your Seven Kingdoms so different? There is no peace in Westeros, no justice, no faith … and soon enough, no food. When men are starving and sick of fear, they look for a savior."

"They may look, but if all they find is Stannis—"

"Not Stannis. Nor Myrcella." The yellow smile widened. "Another. Stronger than Tommen, gentler than Stannis, with a better claim than the girl Myrcella. A savior come from across the sea to bind up the wounds of bleeding Westeros."

"Fine words." Tyrion was unimpressed. "Words are wind. Who is this bloody savior?"
"A dragon." The cheesemonger saw the look on his face at that, and laughed. "A dragon with three heads."(aDwD, Tyrion I)

Truth and lies

So, now that we know vision 1 = Stannis and vision 2 = Aegon let's turn our attention to what are the "lies" and what is the "truth" in our eyes and Dany's eyes?

Stannis: 2 claims are being made about him. That he is the rightful king and that he is Azor Ahai.

Is Stannis the rightful king? Yes. His brother Robert Baratheon was the rightful king through conquest of the Iron Throne from the last Targaryen king, Mad King Aerys. Since Robert Baratheon's official children are actually bastards from the incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jaime Lannister, both Joffrey and Tommen are false kings. They may be recognized as Baratheons, but we the reader, Cersei, Jaime and Ned Stark know (knew) they are not Robert's children. Because Stannis is in fact the rightful king after Robert Baratheon's death, the vision shows him as a king (and thus a crown).

Is Stannis Azor Ahai? No. His Lightbringer is a sham, just a normal sword that burns. Salador Saan later recounts the story of the making of Lightbringer, that required the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa. And when later Melisandre begs to see Azor Ahai in the flames, expecting to see Stannis, she only sees Jon Snow.


Stannis peeled off the glove and let it fall to the ground. The gods in the pyre were scarcely recognizable anymore. The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers. Melisandre sang in the tongue of Asshai, her voice rising and falling like the tides of the sea. Stannis untied his singed leather cape and listened in silence. Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that clung to the sword were dwindling and dying.
By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king's patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king's leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos. (aCoK, Davos I)
I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and Rh'llor shows me only Snow.
We therefore can conclude that the lie the vision is pointing at is not Stannis as claimant to the Iron Throne, but as claimant of being Azor Ahai.
Aegon: of Aegon there are 2 claims as well.
In the first claim Varys, Illyrio, Jon Connington and Aegon himself claim that he's Rhaegar's son Aegon who was believed to be murdered by the Mountain, his head bashed in. But it was unrecognizable for identification. And they claim that Aegon was switched with the "pisswater prince" from Flea Bottom. There is much discussion whether Aegon is fake or really Rhaegar's son.
The mention of him as being "one of the lies" for Dany to slay is used as an argument, especially with the "cloth dragon" imagery that Aegon is in fact not Aegon Targaryen. To explain his Targ looks though, it is then argued that he must be a Blackfyre. But if he's a complete lie, then where's the kernel of the truth in the lie? Well supposedly, as Blackfyre he would still count as a dragon, just not one with legitimate claims to the throne. In these arguments the lie is assumed not to be about Aegon being a dragon (both Blackfyre and Targaryens are dragons), but that he has no claim to the Iron Throne. But that's a strange argument, since the only rightful king to the Iron Throne is Stannis Baratheon, not Aegon, not Daenerys. Aegon and Daenerys can only have a rightful claim to the throne through conquest. And if Aegon were to conquer the throne, as he has started to attempt by the end of aDwD, he is the rightful king of Westeros by conquest (regardless of him being Targ or Blackfyre). In the vision we also know that Aegon will be carried by the people. He will be popular and will gain a lot of support in his conquest. So, most likely he will succeed (for a short while only possibly). Therefore, his claim to the Throne cannot be the lie in the prophecy. And his fakeness or realness as Rhaegar's son is actually less relevant than supposed in these matters. It's impossible to disprove that claim, and impossible to prove the claim.
So, perhaps Aegon himself nor his claim of the throne after conquest is not the lie at all. What if Aegon really is who he believes he is? And what if he conquers Westeros and King's Landing and the Iron Throne? What then can be the lie about the vision?
For that we must go to the second claim made about Aegon: Rhaegar claims he the Prince that was Promised and has a song of Ice and Fire, per the vision Daenerys sees in the HotU before the Undying Ones tell her the prophecies.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.(aCoK, Daenerys IV)
Even if Young Griff = Rhaegar's son Aegon, most of us will dismiss Aegon being either Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised.
Mel believes that the PtwP and Azor Ahai are one and the same, though she prefers to use the title Azor Ahai. Aemon claims the prophecy about the PtwP is at least a 1000 years old, and must come from the blood of the dragon. A woods witch (Ghost of High Heart) claimed the Prince would be born from Aerys II and Rhaella's line, and hence Jaehaerys II had them wed. Although there is no direct evidence as far as we know that the PtwP wields a sword like Azor Ahai's we do know that Prince Rhaegar initially believed himself to be the PtwP and at some point concluded that he had to become a knight after reading something in one of his scrolls. Aegon was born under a bleeding start, but the smoke and salt seems to be missing here (except that like Dany he was born at Dragonstone) and his song does not seem to be of ice and fire at all, only fire.

I propose the lie about the cloth dragon is Rhaegar's claim that Aegon was/is the Prince that was Promised, aka Azor Ahai, and that is why Daenerys' early vision about Aegon and Rhaegar in the HotU was shown and revealed in the first place. And that vision contains the clue to tell the true PtwP from the false one: the song of ice and fire.
conclusion:
Both lies of the first two visions seem not to be about them being claimants to the Throne, but about the Azor Ahai and PtwP prophecy. Neither Stannis nor Aegon are Azor Ahai/PtwP.
The third vision
If the first two are about fake Azor Ahai claims, then could this also be true for the third vision.
The third vision does not show a person. Instead it shows a stone beast with wings rising from a tower and able to breath fire. It thus shows us a dragon, an actual one, rather than a person of the dragonblood. But the image seems to fit with part of the claims made about Azor Ahai's prophecy:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. (aSoS, Davos III)
The stone beast rising from a [stone] tower is the image of "waking dragons out of stone". Mel's words and the third vision itself are deceptive as they make the reader believe we should be watching for a literal event as some stone dragon rising from a tower.
Meanwhile we have Aemon's talk about Daenerys as PtwP:

Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."
Daenrys is from Aerys II and Rhaella's line as she is their daughter. She was born at Dragonstone, the keep of "salt and moke" according to Mel. She was reborn as the Mother of Dragons under the bleeding star as the red comet when she woke dragons out of stone eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre. Hence we are led to believe that Daenerys must be the PtwP. the dragons woken from stone eggs prove it.
But then why is the imagery about a stone dragon rising from a stone tower amongst the vision of lies? The first vision already excluded Stannis from being Azor Ahai. So there is no reason for a third vision to expose Stannis as the lie with Mel attempting to wake stone dragons at Dragonstone with her burnings. The second vision also already excluded Aegon from being the PtwP. That he did not wake dragons from stone is irrelevant. Meanwhile Daenerys did wake dragons from stone eggs. Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion are real. They exist. They are not a lie.
But what if "waking the stone dragons" is a false indicator of the PtwP? Egg read somewhere about a prophecy that mentioned the return of the dragons, and it was one of the reasons he attempted his devestating Summerhal experiment. But Egg did not seem to believe he would be the PtwP, so why was he trying to birth dragons at Summerhal. It suggests that Egg did not believe birthing dragons had anything to do with the PtwP at all. Aemon came to believe too that it has something to do with the PtwP, and is an actual identifier of the PtwP. Which does not seem all that strange, since Mel seems to believe the same thing of Azor Ahai, but it's possible she picked it up from PtwP legends, and mixes them up. The red priests who declare Daenerys to be Azor Ahai do not mention waking dragons from stone with her.

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …" (aDwD, Tyrion VI)

The Volantene waved a hand. "In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen." (aDwD, Tyrion VI)
Though Daenerys' dragons are regarded as a sign by Benerro that she's Azor Ahai, none of his translated words to Tyrion mention them as part of the prophecy words. Aemon, Mel and we assume that Azor Ahai or the PtwP must birth the dragons, but what if in fact the prophecy that Egg read of dragons only implied that the PtwP would be born in the age of the return of the dragons. The birth of dragons from stone may be nothing more than a marker of the timing, of the era, rather than pointing to the waker of the dragons as Azor Ahai.
If the later is true and we apply the kernel of truth and the lie on this vision, then the kernel of truth is that Daenerys "wakes dragons from stone" but the lie is that this would make her Azor Ahai.
Why would the third vision then not show Dany herself or something clearer pointing to her. Well at the time she visits the HotU the claim about Stannis and Aegon was already made. The claim about Stannis happened months before it by Mel, and Rhaegar made the claim at Aegon's birth. But nobody has yet claimed Dany to be Azor Ahai when she is at Qarth. At that point in time only the claim exists that "waking dragons from stone" is an identifier for the PtwP or Azor Ahai reborn. The event of waking dragons from stone has already occurred, and Mel has already expressed it as part of the prophecy, but noone has claimed Dany is Azor Ahai or PtwP yet. It does happen way later, and mostly because of her bringing dragons back into the world, which is the lie, but it has not yet occurred when Dany has the visions in HotU.
And in literature, when it comes to prophecies, especially one as elaborate as that of the HotU, there already needs to be enough data and info around to decipher or interprete the visions. It just would be very hard to know which clues to use. It's only in hindsight, looking back at a prophecy, we would be able to say - the clues were always there and already present.
Conclusion
We now have three lies all revolving about claims regarding Azor Ahai/PtwP:
1) Stannis is not Azor Ahai
2) Aegon is not the PtwP
3) the one who wakes the dragons from stone, aka Daenerys, is not Azor Ahai/PtwP
The slayer of lies
But wait? What? If Daenerys is shown these visions, and she is called the "slayer of lies" then why would the third lie reveal her to be the third lie?
Well, both Dany and the reader would make the assumption that the slayer of lies would only see lies about others but herself. But where does this assumption comes from? There is no reason to exclude Daenerys as being one of the lies while she is the "slayer of lies". GRRM and the Undying are hoping for the reader and Dany to make that exact assumption. The best lies involve kernel of truth and the listener to be misled by making false assumptions.
The most common false assumptions regarding these 3 visions is that they are
a) about the rightful claim of the throne
b ) about false claimaints while Dany's claim (or more correctly, saviour claims made about Dany) is true
Both readers and Dany are making the above assumptions. And as Tyrion learned and concludes: it is very dangerous to make assumptions about prophecies. It's not about "liars", but about "lies". Who makes the claim is irrelevant. It are the claims that are the lies, and they have nothing to do with birthline or the iron throne.

"Prophecy is like a half-trained mule," he complained to Jorah Mormont. "It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head. That bloody widow knew the ship would never reach her destination, she warned us of that, said Benerro saw it in his fires, only I took that to mean … well, what does it matter?" His mouth twisted. "What it really meant was that some bloody big storm would turn our mast to kindling so we could drift aimlessly across the Gulf of Grief until our food ran out and we started eating one another.(aDwD, Tyrion IX)

Conclusion
The 3 visions that are the lies that Daenerys must slay are Stannis being Azor Ahai, Aegon being PtwP and herself being Azor Ahai/PtwP. She will probably prove the first two by slaying both Stannis and Aegon under the assumption that she must prove they are not the rightful claimants to the Iron Throne. If they're dead, before the Long Night and the Other come, they can't be Azor Ahai or the PtwP. But she then must learn and face the truth that she is not Azor Ahai/PtwP either. Can she slay the lie, without slaying herself?
Edited by sweetsunray

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Just a post to mention I cleaned up the "quote" mess of the first posting. Don't know really why that happens, even if I carefully do the quote-unquote tags. It should make the my above proposal of the interpretation of the 3 visions regarding the slayer of lies much more readable.


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A really interesting take on the stone beast/dragon. I'm now meaning towards that.

Sorry if this derails the thread, but Stannis isn't the rightful king. His claim came from usurpation, and usurpation was how he lost it. Renly had the truth of it, the better claim is the side that has the better army

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Daenerys has no need to pretend to be Azor Ahai. Azor Ahai is long dead. Reincarnation is not a concept that has been proven to exist in Planetos. Daenerys' existence eclipses that of Azor Ahai. She is the Mother of Dragons. She possesses not one, but three dragons. She is a scion of the greatest family dynasty to ever rule the Seven Kingdoms. She conquered three cities and freed hundreds of thousands of slaves, all before she turned 16. She walked out of a blazing fire, unharmed. She's a big deal. And she has never claimed to be Azor Ahai. There is no truth that she has to face with regards to AA, other than to introduce herself to people as Daenerys of House Targaryen, Queen of the Andals, First Men, and Rhoynar. Ruler of Meereen. The Unburnt. Mother of Dragons. Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.



If we look at what Benerro is saying, it sounds pretty fruity to me. "triumph over darkness", "summer that will have no end", "death itself will bend its knee", and "all who die fighting for her will be reborn". That doesn't sound like prophecy to me. It sounds like religious propaganda to sway the masses. No one can triumph over the darkness, and you cannot have a summer with no end. Benerro sounds like the bible. This is not Dany's doing. She is not under the spell of this illusion. Now, it is possible that she could simply make a statement to say "I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen. I am not some long dead hero figure."



However, the fact of the matter is that she is the closest thing to the Azor Ahai of this generation. She could very well fulfill a similar leadership role. But it is not exactly going to be the same life as Azor Ahai led in the past. Why would AA need a magic sword if he had dragons! The answer, he had one or the other, but not both. I don't think George's world is cyclical and repetitive like the Wheel of Time. And that role in the past obviously was not to bring in a summer that had no end, nor did it result in victory over darkness. In short, she checks off all the boxes for Azor Ahai. If there is an AA in the present time, it's her. But we don't even know how much truth and accuracy there are to the AA legend. It's like a religion claiming the second coming of their god. They have been saying the same for 1,500 years, the faithful, and it is always now. Now comes and goes, and the god never came. I think it's the same with AA.



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^ but I agree with this. Daenerys is the most fitting to take on the role of azor ahai.

She's the big deal, and she's completed all the requirements. It seems more fitting for her to take this role on, than (for example) some bastard of rhaegar and lyanna who hasn't touched the level of achievements that one female character has. But I do like the stone dragon being a requirement a lie, idea. I just don't think it means she's now of the list

Edited by Nights King's Queen

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The vision is of an indeterminate "stone beast", not specifically a dragon. Daenerys would be able to recognize a dragon.



Moreover we have "shadow fire," and it is not really clear what that is.



Mel. mixing her R'hollor prophecies with the PtWP prophecies seems like a stretch if they are actually different streams of prophecy. She does not seem to be alone in identifying the two.



Finally "smoking tower" may also be significant. We know Jon Snow burnt the Lord Commander's tower and this was the beginning of his ascent in the Night's Watch (and when he got Longclaw). He is also a mixture of wolf and dragon unlike Daenerys (which may make identification of the beast harder for her). But the prophecy is quite indeterminate so it may be someone else as well.


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A really interesting take on the stone beast/dragon. I'm now meaning towards that.

Sorry if this derails the thread, but Stannis isn't the rightful king. His claim came from usurpation, and usurpation was how he lost it. Renly had the truth of it, the better claim is the side that has the better army

No, he is. The Targs broke the feudal contract and were overthrown by the Arryns, Starks, and Tullys (the Baratheons were there too, but they were much less important to the conflict). Then the whole realm accepted the Baratheon dynasty. But even if that didn't happen, Stannis would still be the rightful king. Females cannot claim the Targ throne, it goes to the most suitable male. Stannis is Dany's cousin, so his claim is better than hers by the Targ rules.

Renly is a bullshitter. Tradition and law matter a lot in medieval society. In fact, that's why Robert Baratheon was king at all, rather than Jon Arryn. He was Dany's cousin too. And that's why Renly was going to be crowned king (he at least had some claim). If that idea was true, Renly would be dead (well, dead sooner), and Mace would be king. That army was his, not Renly's.

Edited by Nihlus

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The vision is of an indeterminate "stone beast", not specifically a dragon. Daenerys would be able to recognize a dragon.

Moreover we have "shadow fire," and it is not really clear what that is.

Mel. mixing her R'hollor prophecies with the PtWP prophecies seems like a stretch if they are actually different streams of prophecy. She does not seem to be alone in identifying the two.

Finally "smoking tower" may also be significant. We know Jon Snow burnt the Lord Commander's tower and this was the beginning of his ascent in the Night's Watch (and when he got Longclaw). He is also a mixture of wolf and dragon unlike Daenerys (which may make identification of the beast harder for her). But the prophecy is quite indeterminate so it may be someone else as well.

Then what is the lie?

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Then what is the lie?

I'm sorry, I was discussing it in the context of the OP, according to which the lie in each case is that the designated person may be Azor Ahai. In series, the claim has yet to be made. But it can very plausibly be made. Depends on what he comes back as etc.

Edited by Hajk

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I'm sorry, I was discussing it in the context of the OP, according to which the lie in each case is that the designated person may be Azor Ahai. In series, the claim has yet to be made. But it can very plausibly be made. Depends on what he comes back as etc.

But the claim is being made by the red priests. Aegon doesn't claim he's PtwP either. Rhaegar claimed he was. Stannis doesn't claim it either. Mel claims it. Dany doesn't claim it. But the red priests and Aemon claim her to be it. It's always other people who claim these 3 to be Azor Ahai reborn or PtwP. And Dany received the information to denounce all 3 claims to be a lie.

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But the claim is being made by the red priests. Aegon doesn't claim he's PtwP either. Rhaegar claimed he was. Stannis doesn't claim it either. Mel claims it. Dany doesn't claim it. But the red priests and Aemon claim her to be it. It's always other people who claim these 3 to be Azor Ahai reborn or PtwP. And Dany received the information to denounce all 3 claims to be a lie.

Currently Aegon and and Jon don't claim it. Stannis may not have been too active in claiming it but he certainly seemed to embrace it and go through the motions. He allowed Melisandre to proclaim it, took her "Lightbringer" and generally seemed quite comfortable with the situation. Perhaps he entertained some skepticism but he certainly allowed the lie (if that is what he believed it to be) to propagate.

Anyhow, the prophecy does not say that the person concerned themselves are the liars, just that it is a lie. So Aegon or Jon don't have to personally claim it for the notion to become popular. That may be the lie that Dany slays. People can come to believe that this is the PtwP whether they actively claim that position or not.

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A stone beast breathing shadow fire is indeed not three dragons woken from stone. Not to mention that Daenerys has as of yet still to do something important at/from a tower.



Considering that it are three lies we should expect the stone beast being another false savior of the same category/impact as Stannis and Aegon. No idea who that might be, though. I think Euron will become a major threat to Dany and Westeros in general, but I don't think anyone will perceive him as a savior (and much less as 'the rightful king').



However, I'm pretty sure the Undying/vision magic didn't care about 'rightful claims/monarchs' suggesting that both the Stannis and the Aegon lies (blue-eyed king without a shadow; cloth dragon in front of a cheering crowd) don't refer to their heritage or the legal validity of their claims to the Iron Throne but rather to the mystical roles they claim to fulfill - which they do not but Daenerys (already did in part). The day when visions and prophecies foretell us who is the true king - and that's not part of a political scam to manipulate the gullible and superstitious smallfolk - I'll stop reading this series.


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The vision is of an indeterminate "stone beast", not specifically a dragon. Daenerys would be able to recognize a dragon.

Moreover we have "shadow fire," and it is not really clear what that is.

Mel. mixing her R'hollor prophecies with the PtWP prophecies seems like a stretch if they are actually different streams of prophecy. She does not seem to be alone in identifying the two.

Finally "smoking tower" may also be significant. We know Jon Snow burnt the Lord Commander's tower and this was the beginning of his ascent in the Night's Watch (and when he got Longclaw). He is also a mixture of wolf and dragon unlike Daenerys (which may make identification of the beast harder for her). But the prophecy is quite indeterminate so it may be someone else as well.

The vision is not about a dragon, but a wordplay about the part of the prophecy regarding "waking dragons from stone". The prophecy alone is grammatically dubious. "dragon from stone" could mean "stone dragon" or it could mean "that it rises out of something made of stone". The vision combines both grammatical meanings: a stone beast, rising from a tower that can only be made of stone. It's because both grammatical interpretations are represented in the third vision that I conclude it's not really trying to indicate a person as a lie, but something that got attached to the prophecy as an identification of Azor Ahai reborn or PtwP being the lie. And only one person had been claimed to be Azor Ahai or the PtwP because of it: Dany.

Also, if the third lie vision applies to Dany it should be dubiously portrayed, both to her and the reader, so that we do not immediately jump to the conclusion that it's Dany. It's like the 3 treasons she will know. Dany assumes it means the 3 treasons will be against her, but one cannot exclude that at least one of the treasons she will know is one that she committed or will commit.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Anyhow, the prophecy does not say that the person concerned themselves are the liars, just that it is a lie. So Aegon or Jon don't have to personally claim it for the notion to become popular. That may be the lie that Dany slays. People can come to believe that this is the PtwP whether they actively claim that position or not.

Exactly, that is what I think the 3 lies and "slayer of lies" means. Except nobody claims anything about Jon, not even Mel, but many make claims about Dany. And no, Dany does not need to slay the men, only prove it to be a lie. It's nonsensical imo to push Jon into that image, because Jon will not wake stone dragons or birth dragons out of stone. The only one who actually did that was Dany.

But honestly, do you think Dany has figured that out already? Most readers haven't figured it out yet. All over the internet I have not yet read one sound interpretation about the stone beast... too vague, no idea, what the hell is that about, doesn't seem to fit... That's how people treat the third vision about the lies.

Why would Dany figure it out. She thinks she will be slaying false throne pretenders and something about a stone dragon. She will not identify herself with that, nor someone else. And this will certainly and completely fit into GRRMs ideas about prophecies and how he would use them: to both the character receiving them as for the reader.

Personally, I don't care about who is Azor Ahai reborn or PtwP. Perhaps the whole prophecy is "smoke". I wouldn't mind if it were Dany, or Jon, or nobody. But it was during the discussion about why some readers claim with certainty it can only be Dany, and basing it on her "waking dragons from stone" not long after I had been reading on the HotU prophecies that suddenly the stone beast with wings blowing smoke fire and rising from a tower became clear to me.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Again, Dany hasn't done anything important at a tower. Say, if a twisted stone beast breathing shadow fire had risen from a power or out of fire I could see you case. But not the way the vision portrays it.



More importantly, Daenerys has yet to proclaim that she is the savior. Stannis has already done that, and Aegon most likely will eventually proclaimed that he, as his father's son, is the one to be destined to save the realms of men, too. But the interesting thing about Daenerys is the question whether she'll actually believe the stuff various people (Moqorro, Marwyn) are going to try to tell her? I'm not all that convinced that this will work. Daenerys is right now in process to decide/figure out for herself what her destiny is - it is very unlikely she'll react positively to anyone trying to use her for their own ends.


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Again, Dany hasn't done anything important at a tower. Say, if a twisted stone beast breathing shadow fire had risen from a power or out of fire I could see you case. But not the way the vision portrays it.

More importantly, Daenerys has yet to proclaim that she is the savior. Stannis has already done that, and Aegon most likely will eventually proclaimed that he, as his father's son, is the one to be destined to save the realms of men, too. But the interesting thing about Daenerys is the question whether she'll actually believe the stuff various people (Moqorro, Marwyn) are going to try to tell her? I'm not all that convinced that this will work. Daenerys is right now in process to decide/figure out for herself what her destiny is - it is very unlikely she'll react positively to anyone trying to use her for their own ends.

That's because you make the mistake of making the vision literal. A prophecy about lies will not show straightforward truth. It would use deception and misdirection. 6 of the 9 visions are not literal, only the first 3 which all say something about the past (both deaths of her brothers and of her son who will never be the Stallion that mounts the world). Why suddenly making it literal for the stone beast rising from a tower breathing smoke fire, when the 2 previous ones and the last 3 aren't literal. A silver horse in grasslands, a dead man with grey lips smiling sadly (GreyJoy) on a prow of ship, a blue rose in an icy wall, a cloth dragon on poles, a king casting no shadow.

And I already explained that the vision of the tower and stone beast combines two grammatical interpretations of the words "to wake dragons from stone". The stone dragon rising from dragonstone exactly fits how Mel perceived and interpreted that part of the prophecy. It never happened like that and it never will.

But Dany did "wake dragons out of stone". Of course she didn't wake them out of a tower, and of course her dragons aren't made of stone. But she did "wake dragons out of stone". She'll also be the sole one who will have accomplished it. Nobody else will.

And again, the lies only need to indicate "the claim is the lie", not "the claimant is a liar". It's about "lies", not "liars". That interpretation jump is easily made, but again the misdirection that is typical of prophecy interpretation. So, it doesn't really matter who makes the claim. As long as the claim is made, it's a lie. The claims for the "saviour" have been made only for these 3: Stannis, Aegon, Dany. Nobody else, and the claim made for Dany is majorly based on her waking dragons from stone, and nobody else will ever be a candidate for that part of the prophecy, which based on the visions is a lie. I know it's why you're convinced she's the PtwP. But you admitted yourself that part of the prophecy is conjecture and the sources for it are very dubious.

Edited by sweetsunray

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A really interesting take on the stone beast/dragon. I'm now meaning towards that.

Sorry if this derails the thread, but Stannis isn't the rightful king. His claim came from usurpation, and usurpation was how he lost it. Renly had the truth of it, the better claim is the side that has the better army

He didn't lose it by usurpation. The Lannisters are on the throne through the Baratheon claim, not a Lannister claim. Joffrey nor Tommen sat on the throne as Joffrey Lannister and Tommen Lannister. They claim to be the kings as Robert Baratheon's sons, not even after winning Blackwater Bay. Except they are not his sons. Stannis may not have the IT or KL, but he is not a false king.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Exactly, that is what I think the 3 lies and "slayer of lies" means. Except nobody claims anything about Jon, not even Mel, but many make claims about Dany. And no, Dany does not need to slay the men, only prove it to be a lie. It's nonsensical imo to push Jon into that image, because Jon will not wake stone dragons or birth dragons out of stone. The only one who actually did that was Dany.

But honestly, do you think Dany has figured that out already? Most readers haven't figured it out yet. All over the internet I have not yet read one sound interpretation about the stone beast... too vague, no idea, what the hell is that about, doesn't seem to fit... That's how people treat the third vision about the lies.

Why would Dany figure it out. She thinks she will be slaying false throne pretenders and something about a stone dragon. She will not identify herself with that, nor someone else. And this will certainly and completely fit into GRRMs ideas about prophecies and how he would use them: to both the character receiving them as for the reader.

Personally, I don't care about who is Azor Ahai reborn or PtwP. Perhaps the whole prophecy is "smoke". I wouldn't mind if it were Dany, or Jon, or nobody. But it was during the discussion about why some readers claim with certainty it can only be Dany, and basing it on her "waking dragons from stone" not long after I had been reading on the HotU prophecies that suddenly the stone beast with wings blowing smoke fire and rising from a tower became clear to me.

Once R+L=J becomes public knowledge (or even known to some) Jon=PtwP starts becoming quite plausible. The claim hasn't been made for him so far, but it is quite likely that it will be made, especially once he returns to life. The question is what part of the prophecy is literal and what is metaphorical. If the dragons are metaphorical, for example, then it could simply mean a Targaryen. If the 'reborn' part is taken more metaphorically then it applies to Dany. If less metaphorically then Jon's resurrection would come closer. If pulling the blade from fire is taken more metaphorically then it could mean dragons. If taken less metaphorically then Longclaw was given to Jon quite soon after it was actually burnt in the fire. And so on. So I don't think that expecting the claim on his part in the future is so strange. Of course we don't know what Jon will do in the future. There are all manner of theories about Ice dragons and what not on these boards.

Once more, Dany would have recognized the "beast" as a dragon if a dragon is what it really was. The text says "beast" and that may be for a good reason. As for Dany figuring it out, I'm not sure she is meant to figure it out. She may only realize these things in retrospect. The Undying, after all were not exactly well-wishers of Dany.

I also find the stone beast vague. Only recently have I realized that it could apply to Jon as well. It seems obvious that this lie is going to be far more significant than the other two. It comes from the realization that Jon has been related to towers. He was born in the Tower of Joy. He burnt the Lord Commander's tower. And his mixture of Dragon+Wolf ancestry can create an unusual and unfamiliar "beast" for Dany. "Shadow fire" is hard to interpret, but it may be associated with darkness. One may as well recall Bloodraven's statement to Bran:

“...Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother’s milk. Darkness will make you strong.”

Or it may have something to do with Shadow magic (with a specialist in the area, i.e. Melisandre, already at the wall and well disposed towards him). His fusion of the blood of two royal lines may provide a potent force for her magics as well. Who knows how powerful they could be. She already seems to have hinted that she would like to go in such a direction with him. And he was feeling more well disposed towards her as well in his final chapter in ADwD.

Edited by Hajk

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The Undying try to distract Daenerys with the truth. They showed her what her destiny/future is while they are taking it away from by absorbing her life force. They had no intention to confuse her with false visions simply because they were quite sure she'd never leave their house alive.



There is no Lightbringer element for the promised prince/reborn Azor Ahai in any prophecy we have as of yet heard. The historical Azor Ahai made and wielded Azor Ahai but nothing suggests that his reborn version (in the mind of the red priests) has to have a Lightbringer, too. Melisandre seems to believe that, but Benerro and Moqorro apparently do not.



It is always possible that somebody will forge a new Lightbringer in future novels but I actually don't think so.


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The HotU prophecy is extensive. Such an extensive prophecy must always contain clues that would make it possible to theorize or predict what the prophecy means. If you could only figure it out with clues that are only given much much later, then the author is "cheating" with his prophecy. Of course it will be very difficult with only aGoT and aCoK to figure out which clues are relevant, but the fundamental data must be there.



Stannis as Azor Ahai: already completely identifiable in aCoK with all the data given about him. Both Stannis is identifiable, as well as the lie about Azor Ahai.



Aegon as PtwP: Rhaegar makes the claim in a HotU vision about Aegon, so that's already covered. The readers do not yet know though that Aegon is alive. But GRRM already mentioned that the murdered baby was unrecognizable, and has Varys already make comments about where power lies and has him tell his background story of having been part of a mummer's troupe. The clues are there to theorize that Aegon may in fact be alive and some other baby's head was smashed and that Varys intends to put a puppet of his choice/making on the Iron Throne.



Waking a beast with wings and blowing fire "out of stone" being an identifier for the PtwP or Azor Ahai: Mel mentioned it as part of the claim and has been shown to want to have stone beasts with wings and blowing fire to being woken from Dragonstone. The vision almost seems to want to misdirect the reader towards Mel's interpretation of it. Of course, Mel and interpreting what she sees in the flames as well as prophecies - often wrong. Meanwhile Dany has "woken dragons out of stone", just not in the imagery portrayed in the prophecy.



Now let's examine Jon: almost all clues of him being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna come from aGot. So, there are the clues that he is a dragon. The clues that he was born at the ToJ also come from a Got. But then why is the dragon made of stone? Why isn't it an ice dragon instead? That would make way more sense. And what the hell is the lie? The lie would then be "PtwP is the dragon who was woken out of stone." But that's not what the prophecies claim anyhow. They claim that the PtwP will "wake dragons out of stone". Why is that so important. Because of the HotU timing. The claims about Stannis and Aegon have been already made, and they are lies. The claim about Dany and Jon is not made yet at all at the time of the HotU. So, at the time of the HotU prophecy the vision of the "stone beast with wings breathing smoke fire rising out of a tower" must contain both truth and lie already to not be a cheat. If the vision points at Jon's birth, then it's showing a truth and then there's no lie, since the prophecy doesn't claim the PtwP is a stone dragon born out of a tower, or is a dragon born out of stone. Only if the vision points at Dany do we both have a truth and a lie: Dany did wake dragons out of stone (that's the truth), and the PtwP wakes dragons out of stone (that's the lie).



Regarding the "beast". Well what else is a beast with wings and breathign smoky fire... a dragon. If you're going to use it as an identifier for Jon as a dragon, then it's a dragon too in Dany's case. You can't have it be a dragon in one case, and not be a dragon in the other case. That it's a "stone beast" already indicates the vision is a metaphor. We're not going to see actual stone beasts fly. Just like we're not going to see a "dead man" with literally "grey lips smiling sadly". Meanwhile for example, Summer's "dragon" is not metaphorical:



and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone.(aCoK, Bran)


The last issue would be that there's 1 dragon, and not 3. The prophecy-part about waking dragons doesn't mention a number either. But, ok, it says "dragons" not "dragon". It's possible that the vision is a triple metaphor:


"stone beast with wings breathing smoky fire": a dragon out of stone


+


"rising from a tower": woken out of stone


+


It's only one, not plural: a person with dragon blood.

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