The Slayer of Lies

[sweetsunray]

The Undying try to distract Daenerys with the truth. They showed her what her destiny/future is while they are taking it away from by absorbing her life force. They had no intention to confuse her with false visions simply because they were quite sure she'd never leave their house alive.

There is no Lightbringer element for the promised prince/reborn Azor Ahai in any prophecy we have as of yet heard. The historical Azor Ahai made and wielded Azor Ahai but nothing suggests that his reborn version (in the mind of the red priests) has to have a Lightbringer, too. Melisandre seems to believe that, but Benerro and Moqorro apparently do not.

It is always possible that somebody will forge a new Lightbringer in future novels but I actually don't think so.

1) They try to distract her with metaphorical visions, rather than blatant literal visions regarding present and future, because it makes her pause and think, and allows them time to suck the lifeforce out of her. The other visions aren't literal truth either. They're almost all comparable to symbolical image language like in dreams, except for the 3 of the daughter of death (and they already all have come to pass). If you accept the "cloth dragon" as a metaphor, and the "blue rose in the wall of ice" as a metaphor then the stone beast with wings rising from a tower is a metaphor as well. You can't just start picking which is literal and the rest is metaphorical, just because it would expose the main reason you believe Dany to be the PtwP as the lie.

2) Wrong, it is part of the Azor Ahai prophecy:

In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

Mel is quoting the Ashai books here, unlike when she makes the claim of waking dragons out of stone. However, that does not discount the possible metaphorical interpretation that a dragon can be a sword of fire. The word "sword" itself is often used in a metaphorical sense in the books, or to indicate a person for example:

a sellsword, my bloody sword (a pun to a guy's cock taking a girl's maidenhead), I am the sword in the darkness (a brother of the Night's watch), and so on.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Why do people take mummer's dragon at face value and assume it's a fake dragon? It can be a REAL dragon produced by a mummer. I.e. we know Varys is a master of disguise and trickery. So we could call him a mummer. If Aegon is the real deal, he is still a dragon, brought forth by a mummer. Thus mummer's dragon.

[sweetsunray]

With regards to the slayer of lies metaphors in the visions, there can even be a case made that the number of metaphors increases with the order of the visions:

the vision of Stannis is the first vision and it has 1 metaphor: him casting no shadow

the vision of Aegon is the second vision and it contains 2 metaphors: "cloth dragon" for being a mummer's tool + "dragon" for being a person

the vision of Dany as the PtwP/Azor Ahai who wakes dragons out of stone is the third vision and has 3 metaphors: "stone beast with wrings and breathing smoky fire (aka dragon)" as "dragon out of stone" + "rising out of a tower" as "waken out of stone" + "one beast that has all the elements of a dragon" as a person-dragon.

(Note: I said, the numbers of metaphors increase, not the number of lies)

[sweetsunray]

Why do people take mummer's dragon at face value and assume it's a fake dragon? It can be a REAL dragon produced by a mummer. I.e. we know Varys is a master of disguise and trickery. So we could call him a mummer. If Aegon is the real deal, he is still a dragon, brought forth by a mummer. Thus mummer's dragon.

Exactly, Syphon. That is what I think as well, and those elements I incorporated in the OP. Aegon is a dragon (person). That's the truth in the vision. The lie is Rhaegar's claim about him being the PtwP, because he doesn't have a song of ice and fire (and neither does Dany).

[Isobel Harper]

With regards to the slayer of lies metaphors in the visions, there can even be a case made that the number of metaphors increases with the order of the visions:

the vision of Stannis is the first vision and it has 1 metaphor: him casting no shadow

the vision of Aegon is the second vision and it contains 2 metaphors: "cloth dragon" for being a mummer's tool + "dragon" for being a person

the vision of Dany as the PtwP/Azor Ahai who wakes dragons out of stone is the third vision and has 3 metaphors: "stone beast with wrings and breathing smoky fire (aka dragon)" as "dragon out of stone" + "rising out of a tower" as "waken out of stone" + "one beast that has all the elements of a dragon" as a person-dragon.

(Note: I said, the numbers of metaphors increase, not the number of lies)

You could increase the third "lie" to three in another way: Daenerys (assuming lie #3 is her) is neither Azor Ahai (as the Red Priests insist in ADwD), the Prince(ss) who was Promised (as Aemon insist in AFFC), nor... mother of dragons? fireproof? responsible for hatching her dragons? I'm a bit stumped on the last part. In regards to the last two possibilities, Mirri Maz Duur might have been responsible for hatching the dragon eggs and/or making Daenerys fireproof in AGoT, not Daenerys. That is, these actions that are not caused by the commonly thought to be necessary Targaryen blood, but by simple magic and sorcery. The implication of this discovery would essentially be a "Wizard of Oz" moment where the curtain is swept aside, revealing Targaryens as no different than any other man and not the superstitiously upheld near-godlike figures that they are claimed to be.

In line with this, the second lie might disprove Aegon as neither Azor Ahai nor the Prince who was Promised. We have yet to see any red priest call him such, but neither have any red priests been aware of his presence either. Perhaps that might change via Thoros of Myr or Melisandre in WoW?

ETA: I forgot you basically said this in your OP. :P

[sweetsunray]

You could increase the third "lie" to three in another way: Daenerys (assuming lie #3 is her) is neither Azor Ahai (as the Red Priests insist in ADwD), the Prince(ss) who was Promised (as Aemon insist in AFFC), nor... mother of dragons? fireproof? responsible for hatching her dragons? I'm a bit stumped on the last part. In regards to the last two possibilities, Mirri Maz Duur might have been responsible for hatching the dragon eggs and/or making Daenerys fireproof in AGoT, not Daenerys. That is, these actions that are not caused by the commonly thought to be necessary Targaryen blood, but by simple magic and sorcery. The implication of this discovery would essentially be a "Wizard of Oz" moment where the curtain is swept aside, revealing Targaryens as no different than any other man and not the superstitiously upheld near-godlike figures that they are claimed to be.

In line with this, the second lie might disprove Aegon as neither Azor Ahai nor the Prince who was Promised. We have yet to see any red priest call him such, but neither have any red priests been aware of his presence either. Perhaps that might change via Thoros of Myr or Melisandre in WoW?

ETA: I forgot you basically said this in your OP. :P

I think you could argue an increase in lies, yes, as the incremenation of metaphors. But I do hold more to 1 lie + 1 truth.

LF says

And the best lies contain within them nuggets of truth, enough to give a listener pause.(aCoK, Tyrion III)

"No." Osney touched her golden hair. "The thing is, the best lies have some truth in 'em . . . to give 'em flavor, as it were.(aFfC, Cersei IX)

Tyrion thinks

The best lies are seasoned with a bit of truth.(aDwD, Tyrion IV)

3 times this principle is mentioned in the series, once in aCoK (before the HotU chapter), once in aFfC and once again in aDwD. Since the visions are about lies, and Dany has to slay the lies, they ought to be "the best of lies", and the best of lies have some/nuggets truth in them.

If Aegon is fake + no Azor Ahai reborn/PtwP then there is no truth left. And remember, Varys is a mummer, a deceiver, who uses wrongly made assumptions, but not outright lies. He makes you believe what you want to believe. It's not a problem btw that the red priests don't know about him, nor that they don't claim him to be Azor Ahai reborn/PtwP. It's enough that Rhaegar claimed he was, because Dany witnessed the claim in a vision.

If Dany is not the mother of dragons + the identifier "waking dragons out of stone" is a false identifier, then again, there is no truth left.

[GravyFace]

You could increase the third "lie" to three in another way: Daenerys (assuming lie #3 is her) is neither Azor Ahai (as the Red Priests insist in ADwD), the Prince(ss) who was Promised (as Aemon insist in AFFC), nor... mother of dragons? fireproof? responsible for hatching her dragons? I'm a bit stumped on the last part. In regards to the last two possibilities, Mirri Maz Duur might have been responsible for hatching the dragon eggs and/or making Daenerys fireproof in AGoT, not Daenerys. That is, these actions that are not caused by the commonly thought to be necessary Targaryen blood, but by simple magic and sorcery. The implication of this discovery would essentially be a "Wizard of Oz" moment where the curtain is swept aside, revealing Targaryens as no different than any other man and not the superstitiously upheld near-godlike figures that they are claimed to be.

In line with this, the second lie might disprove Aegon as neither Azor Ahai nor the Prince who was Promised. We have yet to see any red priest call him such, but neither have any red priests been aware of his presence either. Perhaps that might change via Thoros of Myr or Melisandre in WoW?

ETA: I forgot you basically said this in your OP. :P

Per GRRM, it was Dany who created the magic in the pyre that hatched the dragons and made herself fireproof. Not MMD. That's not a lie she needs to slay.

[Isobel Harper]

<snip>

If Aegon is fake + no Azor Ahai reborn/PtwP then there is no truth left. And remember, Varys is a mummer, a deceiver, who uses wrongly made assumptions, but not outright lies. He makes you believe what you want to believe. It's not a problem btw that the red priests don't know about him, nor that they don't claim him to be Azor Ahai reborn/PtwP. It's enough that Rhaegar claimed he was, because Dany witnessed the claim in a vision.

If Dany is not the mother of dragons + the identifier "waking dragons out of stone" is a false identifier, then again, there is no truth left.

Some alternate "fAegon" theories claim that Aegon is Rhaegar's son, although through Ashara or even Lyanna (i.e. R+L=A+J) instead of Elia. The half-truth in there is obvious; Aegon is Rhaegar's son, only not the one he's been raised to be. There is also the future evidence against Aegon that we'd have to consider, although I'm not sure what sort of evidence Daenerys could muster up in regards to the legitimacy of Aegon's identity. Said evidence might appear conclusive to others in-story, but be more ambiguous to the reader. For example, Varys might "admit" that Aegon is not Elia's son, but the reader is given no verification whether or not he's telling the truth.

The third lie might be "slain" by someone without Targaryen blood riding a dragon, thus ending the superstition about Targaryen blood and dragon bonding. The reader will never be given a clear answer as to how this non-Targ claimed a dragon (i.e. Nettles heritage is left unclear) or whether said non-Targ dragon rider is in fact secretly/unknowingly Targaryen (reference A+J=T crackpot theories here), or whether it's Bran or Bloodraven warging the dragon.

Anywho, I don't particular support all of these theories. I'm suggesting them only as possibilities to fill in the blank to the "kernel of truth" that you mention.

[Isobel Harper]

Per GRRM, it was Dany who created the magic in the pyre that hatched the dragons and made herself fireproof. Not MMD. That's not a lie she needs to slay.

Did he state this? I only recall GRRM stating that the dragon pyre event in AGoT was a unique, one-time event.

[Nictarion]

Did he state this? I only recall GRRM stating that the dragon pyre event in AGoT was a unique, one-time event.

Yes, he said it was Dany that made up the magic.

[Isobel Harper]

Is it in a SSM? Could you reference it? I'm just curious whether or not my idea was incorrect, which it could be.

[Isobel Harper]

In addition to my comment on slaying the "Aegon" lie, I'd like to add this. (I hope I'm not steering the thread off topic.) Jon Connington admits in ADwD that Aegon will be called a pretender without Daenerys. Several characters already doubt Aegon's identity, and he's only just landed. In addition to this, he's landed with the Golden Company of all mercenary companies. The story is setting Aegon up to look like a Blackfyre pretender, not be one. The lie that Daenerys slays might be that Aegon is not a Blackfyre, and is in fact who he claims to be. In doing so, she might also uncover that Rhaegar no longer believed Aegon's to be the Prince who was Promise before he died.

Another possibility is that the "mummer's dragon" symbolizes a puppet; Varys and Illyrio are using the Targaryens for their own means in some way. The lie that Daenerys slays essentially cuts the strings and frees herself (and Aegon?) from their plotting.

[Nictarion]

Is it in a SSM? Could you reference it? I'm just curious whether or not my idea was incorrect, which it could be.

From an interview with GRRM:

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules.

[sweetsunray]

From an interview with GRRM:

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules.

Oh, gosh... I have some ideas of Mel attempting a magical healing on Jon, using the Wall's magic, not realizing she'll weaken the magic wards within the wall... I can just see her improvize too. :bang: (for making the wall easy to breach for the Others then) :bowdown: (for saving Jon) then

[sweetsunray]

Anywho, I don't particular support all of these theories. I'm suggesting them only as possibilities to fill in the blank to the "kernel of truth" that you mention.

Nah, me neither...If we're talking about Aegon as Rhaegar's son, I'm for the R+E=A. The rest is just too complicated, convulated and with only 2 books left, and perhaps Aegon not even making it until end of aDwD, that's way too crackpot for me.

[Isobel Harper]

Nah, me neither...If we're talking about Aegon as Rhaegar's son, I'm for the R+E=A. The rest is just too complicated, convulated and with only 2 books left, and perhaps Aegon not even making it until end of aDwD, that's way too crackpot for me.

Ha! I'm so used to fAegon theories, it took me a while to realize what R+E meant. :P

I'm an R+E girl myself too, for the most part. I'm sometimes dabble in a bit of R+L=A+J crackpottery.

[sweetsunray]

In addition to my comment on slaying the "Aegon" lie, I'd like to add this. (I hope I'm not steering the thread off topic.) Jon Connington admits in ADwD that Aegon will be called a pretender without Daenerys. Several characters already doubt Aegon's identity, and he's only just landed. In addition to this, he's landed with the Golden Company of all mercenary companies. The story is setting Aegon up to look like a Blackfyre pretender, not be one. The lie that Daenerys slays might be that Aegon is not a Blackfyre, and is in fact who he claims to be. In doing so, she might also uncover that Rhaegar no longer believed Aegon's to be the Prince who was Promise before he died.

Another possibility is that the "mummer's dragon" symbolizes a puppet; Varys and Illyrio are using the Targaryens for their own means in some way. The lie that Daenerys slays essentially cuts the strings and frees herself (and Aegon?) from their plotting.

This I like.

But essentially, I suspect all three lies revolve around the same subject, and it's not something that Dany would be much bothered about - Azor Ahai reborn or PtwP. She's more focused on usurpers and possible rival claimants to the IT. Because that's her focus (well at least when she gets to Westeros finally), she's more likely to interprete the 3 lie visions in that way. Readers would tend to seek and follow Dany's reasoning, because that is what is important for her, and it's shown to her in her POV. But the IT, as we know, is ultimately not the most important to be running after or to claim, with Others building a wight army and Mel having had a vision of towers falling at the Wall (which means she has a hand in that event... Mel only sees visions that come about by her meddling or show her meddling, or a direct threat to her life)

Meanwhile, as others are busy with this prophecy (and we learned of it only first through Mel about Stannis), we the readers are following the clues given by those claiming this one or that one is Azor Ahai reborn.PtwP, with Aemon in the last books pointing to Dany, instead of checking out the slayer of lies prophecies.

If my theory is right, it seems like masterful trickery and misdirection done by GRRM, and in the end we'll say... We could have known, because it said so right in the slayer of lies visions.

[Nictarion]

Oh, gosh... I have some ideas of Mel attempting a magical healing on Jon, using the Wall's magic, not realizing she'll weaken the magic wards within the wall... I can just see her improvize too. :bang: (for making the wall easy to breach for the Others then) :bowdown: (for saving Jon) then

Hmmm...that's an interesting idea. I always assumed if the Wall comes down it will be the Horn of Joramun. I also think Mel would sacrifice someone (maybe Shireen) to revive Jon, but using the Wall's magic could be a possibility.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I think the "stone beast breathing shadow fire" is going to show up in a much more literal way than the OP speculates. Melisandre will create another unholy monster with the sacrifice of Shireen, and Stannis may use this monster against Daenerys's dragons

[sweetsunray]

Hmmm...that's an interesting idea. I always assumed if the Wall comes down it will be the Horn of Joramun. I also think Mel would sacrifice someone (maybe Shireen) to revive Jon, but using the Wall's magic could be a possibility.

Well, here's what I think will go down...Jon will be dying, but not yet dead. The wounds don't seem of that nature that they would bring instant death, but at least one may be deadly in enough hours. He wargs into Ghost. Bowen & co stop stabbing, because they think the deed is done.

While Jon's warged and dying, she'll organize a burning sacrifice (indeed maybe Shireen) + Bowen & Co for their mutiny. This sacrifice will not actually heal Jon, but it will unlock the wall's magic, which Mel ends up using to heal Jon, akin to how Moqorro uses Ashai healing magic on Victarion's hand and arm. That was a very painful healing, and it would be even more painful for internal, deadly injuries to organs with Jon. But since he's warged he won't feel a thing of it. Moqorro's magic required a lot. Healing a dying Jon would require an immense amount. So, Mel ends up tapping into the wall's magic, partly draining it, and thus weakening the wall enough somewhere where there are towers and water.

We've also seen that Moqorro's healing magic had some strange physical effects on Vic: smoking, black, but crackling like skin with fire underneath (lava-like almost), and incredibly strong.

But the wall's magic has been trapped in stone and ice for thousands of years. It's not fire magic, it's ice magic. And so, Jon's body becomes strong but hard and cold as stone and ice, which fits Bran's dream/vision of Jon in aGoT when he looks North (alone in a bed, turning cold and hard), as well as Jon's own dream where he wears armor of black ice and is holding off wights climbing onto the wall, holding a flaming like sword, and that dream ends with him sending Igritte downwards.

So, basically, Mel would have created a super strong, ice cold Jon who can fight Others and wights, but well she weakened the wall, which the Others will breach at the location where Mel saw the towers coming down. So, she exchanged the protection the wall gave against the Others for a super strong Jon, who can't possibly hold off an army of wights and Others all by himself. Unwittingly Mel would be the one who fucked over the realm and the wall, because she believes Jon's important and must be saved. She of course should have left well alone, not mess with Jon's head about her visions, which made him more and more anxious and take the threat of the Pink Letter too serious, and eventually led to the stabby-stabby, and her healing attempt that will weaken the wall.

Davos chapters already revealed that Mel only sees a direct threat to her life, or the outcome of her meddling (Renly winning against Stannis she feared and saw, but her shadowbaby meddling had Garlan wear Renly's armor to win against Stannis at Blackwater). But she never saw it coming that Davos would rescue and smuggle out Edric Storm. Mel seeing towers of the Wall coming down (she claims it's Eastwatch though it doesn't look like that harbor) means she saw something she will have a hand in happening, just like Garlan in the Renly armor.