WOT questions, advice needed and given.

[Galactus]

RE: WOT.

I think it is "feminist" in that it clearly tries to discuss gender-issues in a fantasy context. I don't think it *succeeds*, mind, but he's clearly trying. Now, another factor is that it is clearly written by a man who got his grounding in feminism in the 60's and 70's. He's updated some, but the basics is a fairly old style of ideas that were swishing around at the time, and a lot of which has since become outdated or superceded.

Add to this the fact that, y'know, he's a man, he's not neccessarily the greatest of writers, and a lot of unexamined prejudices and you end up with the weird soup that WOT is. I'd still classify it as a femnist work though: Just a bad one. ("feminist" is not a seal of quality, or even of sanity)

[Jo498]

The First Law has a lesbian princess (who has to be forced into consummating her marriage to a man and the world is so heteronormative that revealing her inclination would be a huge scandal, I think).

[Galactus]

Katherine Kerr's Deverry Cycle (which is roughly contemporary with WOT; I think?) had a few homosexual characters, IIRC. (not that they were neccessarily treated in an enlgihtened fashion, mind)

[Malik Ambar]

What does it's possible or potential Feminism have to do with the OP's question though ? Not to sound like a dick, but the discussion that's happening here warrants it's own seperate thread doesn't it ? Writing style, pacing, etc are more relevant points to be discussed rather than gender essentialism of it's magic system IMO.

[TheRevanchist]

The First Law has a lesbian princess (who has to be forced into consummating her marriage to a man and the world is so heteronormative that revealing her inclination would be a huge scandal, I think).

Yep, you're right. Jezal's is actually lesbian.

She's a duchess, not princess though.

[Werthead]

It'd be interesting to see if the WoT TV series happens, if they update and deal with some of the issues raised: particularly the saidin/saidar thing being tied to your soul's gender but this never leading to incidents of people who were biologically male or female channelling the other half of the power because that wasn't their "true" gender; based on Jordan's comments it looks like that would happen but there's no indication it has in the books. I suspect it was a mirky area he didn't want to deal with, but it's also something that could be dealt with fairly straightforwardly (i.e. there could be vanishingly rare cases of people doing that, but given how rare channelling is in the first place it's almost unheard of).

If the TV series does happen, I think it's essential they get some savvy female writers on board or it could double down on the stuff that RJ doesn't handle very well at all.

[TheRevanchist]

It'd be interesting to see if the WoT TV series happens, if they update and deal with some of the issues raised: particularly the saidin/saidar thing being tied to your soul's gender but this never leading to incidents of people who were biologically male or female channelling the other half of the power because that wasn't their "true" gender; based on Jordan's comments it looks like that would happen but there's no indication it has in the books. I suspect it was a mirky area he didn't want to deal with, but it's also something that could be dealt with fairly straightforwardly (i.e. there could be vanishingly rare cases of people doing that, but given how rare channelling is in the first place it's almost unheard of).

If the TV series does happen, I think it's essential they get some savvy female writers on board or it could double down on the stuff that RJ doesn't handle very well at all.

One of the forsaken who was a male but got into a female body continued channeling saidar.

[Galactus]

It'd be interesting to see if the WoT TV series happens, if they update and deal with some of the issues raised: particularly the saidin/saidar thing being tied to your soul's gender but this never leading to incidents of people who were biologically male or female channelling the other half of the power because that wasn't their "true" gender; based on Jordan's comments it looks like that would happen but there's no indication it has in the books. I suspect it was a mirky area he didn't want to deal with, but it's also something that could be dealt with fairly straightforwardly (i.e. there could be vanishingly rare cases of people doing that, but given how rare channelling is in the first place it's almost unheard of).

If the TV series does happen, I think it's essential they get some savvy female writers on board or it could double down on the stuff that RJ doesn't handle very well at all.

IIRC Jordan's answer was some variation of "The Pattern makes sure you end up in the "correct" body."

IE: "I didn' think about it."

[C.T. Phipps]

The First Law has a lesbian princess (who has to be forced into consummating her marriage to a man and the world is so heteronormative that revealing her inclination would be a huge scandal, I think).

Hell, *I* write fantasy with a lesbian couple and bisexual co-star in the main cast in both my series. The world has clearly moved on from Jordan's time.

I just try to judge it from a wider context.

[Esa1996]

The Second Apocalypse does have a few actually Esa1996:

Cnaiur+Cnaiurs father/Moe Snr

Akka/Inrau is strongly hinted at as is Akka/Proyas (the latter being hinted at as a reason the tutelage ended) I am fairly sure Akka is bisexual.

Cnaiur/Conphas (albeit rape) Cnaiur is omnisexual. (Man, woman, sranc, the Ground)

Shae/Aurang - yeah he's an alien but he has a massive phallus so it has to count.

Oh damn, I forgot about Cnaiur! Also, the bolded part is damn hilarious. :D I could only think of the Ikureis Household and Achamian / Esmenet.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TheRevanchist,

You are wrong about "The Kingkiller Chronicles". The owners of the Eolian are more than just "business partners". It comes up early in TWMF when Denna is talking to Kvothe, Sim, and Willum at the Eolian about how sympathy works. Denna also mentions that there is a fellow interested in Kvothe at that point.

[SilentRoamer]

Hello Lyana,

Do you care to answer any of my questions? Feel like I am having a one sided conversation here! I appreciate what you say about it not being the 90's but surely some sort of context has to be taken into account? I mean if you read older literature the racism/sexism/misogyny can be pretty endemic but it is kind of a sign of the times - I am not saying this is right but I hold that context does have some import.

Just to clarify above - the reborn channeler mentioned above is Osangar not Cyndane (I was getting confused) Osangar is suspected to be Aginor.

[Esa1996]

Hell, *I* write fantasy with a lesbian couple and bisexual co-star in the main cast in both my series. The world has clearly moved on from Jordan's time.

I just try to judge it from a wider context.

You're a writer? Any released works? Names?

[C.T. Phipps]

IIRC Jordan's answer was some variation of "The Pattern makes sure you end up in the "correct" body."

IE: "I didn' think about it."

Which is B.S. in my opinion, but nobody was asking it.

If anyone wants to read my reviews on the books, I'm doing a re-read of the series and writing down my thoughts as I go.

The Eye of the World

The Great Hunt

The Dragon Reborn

[C.T. Phipps]

You're a writer? Any released works? Names?

Yeah, I wrote "The Rules of Supervillainy" and "Esoterrorism."

In the Rules of Supervillainy, the main character's wife Mandy is bisexual and her ex-girlfriend is a reformed supervillain. It's a minor source of tension. Likewise, the universe's equivalent to the Flash and his sidekick are a gay couple. There's also a transgender character (male to female) called the Human Tank.

Esoterrorism's star, Derek, has a lesbian twin sister, Penny, who plays a role as his supporting witch and human artillery. She's dating their equivalent to Q, Lucy, who makes the gadgets (since they're both fictional spies). Penny and Lucy get married off-camera between Esoterrorism and its sequel coming out in March.

[Esa1996]

Yeah, I wrote "The Rules of Supervillainy" and "Esoterrorism."

In the Rules of Supervillainy, the main character's wife Mandy is bisexual and her ex-girlfriend is a reformed supervillain. It's a minor source of tension. Likewise, the universe's equivalent to the Flash and his sidekick are a gay couple. There's also a transgender character (male to female) called the Human Tank.

Esoterrorism's star, Derek, has a lesbian twin sister, Penny, who plays a role as his supporting witch and human artillery. She's dating their equivalent to Q, Lucy, who makes the gadgets (since they're both fictional spies). Penny and Lucy get married off-camera between Esoterrorism and its sequel coming out in March.

Wow. Cool. Not everyday you meet professional artists on a forum discussing said art (As in, writer's on a book forum, musicians on a music forum etc). Good luck with future projects. I'm only in the planning stages of my series, and it might well stay there for ever as I tend to like planning the books more than the writing them. :D

[TheRevanchist]

TheRevanchist,

You are wrong about "The Kingkiller Chronicles". The owners of the Eolian are more than just "business partners". It comes up early in TWMF when Denna is talking to Kvothe, Sim, and Willum at the Eolian about how sympathy works. Denna also mentions that there is a fellow interested in Kvothe at that point.

Oh well, it seems that I might have forgotten some things (there are a few years since I read it).

Anyway point stands. Even compared with today's standards (bear in mind, even in movies the homosexuality wasn't that present in the nineties; while in video games was completely absent) WoT stands quite well. There are at least 3 occurrences of homosexuality/bisexuality there. Now I am not expert in the genre and the only pre-Wheel of Time fantasy books I've read are LotR, Black Company and Tigana but in those novels there wasn't any homosexual relationship. In that aspect, Jordan was ahead of his time, and to be criticized for that is a bit odd, probably even unfair.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TheRevanchist,

LOTR is certainly not a recent publication. It was published in 1954. Are you holding it to the same standards as a work published 40 (and more) years later?

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't know Lyanna, I can see your point of view (I always try to be fairly balanced) but for me the gender essentialism isn't a problem - I have always felt men/women are fundamentally different and that variety in this sense is here to be embraced.

Gender essentialism is dangerous because it has traditionally been used, and is still used today, as a tool to justify biological determinism. This means that biology is destiny. In practice, this means if you are born a woman are then automatically get saddled with certain attributes, like altruistic, sensitive, gentle, caring; while on the flipside, men instead get given innate attributes like determination, strength, drive. As you can tell, the ones generally associated with innate femaleness are also valued lower than the ones associated with maleness. This, in short, is why gender essentialism is harmful.

As for whether men or women are fundamentally different, this is a feeling promoted by our culture, but for which there is very little conclusive scientific fact. Not to mention that the categories themselves, i.e. "male" and "female" are far more of a sliding scale than two distinct categories. This is despite a culture which very strongly promotes "male" and "female" as two distinct categories with innate values connected to them.

Please don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be saying to CharlesP that the text is not sexist just because he says he cannot see aforementioned sexism but it is sexist because you can? Seems kind of a double standard in that your assertions hold more prominence than CharlesP?

I have supplied extensive textual material and examples proving my points, while his refusal of my points have been "I cannot see it, therefor it is not there" without providing much in the line of textual evidence or reasoning around why he thinks the description of Saidin and Saidar is not sexist.

Also what do you mean "clinging to heterosexuality?" Personally as a hetero male if I were ever to write a story it probably would feature little/no homosexual leanings unless I intentionally wanted that as an aspect of the story - its just not something I would even consider, not out of any negative feelings it just literally wouldn't be part of my thought process. Saying "clinging to heterosexuality" seems to take a stance the author has a duty to attend to certain values - I don't think that is the case.

I always felt the complimentary nature of men/women in WoT was very well done but as I said before being white/male/straight that would probably be expected as I don't see the gender essentialism as an issue (at least as I understand it).

I will be honest - I have always avoided these threads/discussions for fear of upsetting people. Even online I think a certain modicum of decency is a good standard to live by.

No need to avoid discussions for fear of upsetting people. We're all adults here. :)

Heteronormativity is to assume that heterosexuality is the normal, the default, the all-encompassing and to see everything else as arbitrary. It's nothing unusual, and nothing to be ashamed of. Indeed most of us have been there. However, we also all have a choice, and that is to stay in that mindset or to open ourselves up to the possibilities of a wider world, with a wider range of people in it, with experiences and lives different from our own, and that they, too, are interesting and worthy of listening to. This also ties into the idea that gender essentialism is harmful and perpetuates rigid gender roles. From genderspectrum.org:

Like other social constructs, gender is closely monitored and reinforced by society. Practically everything in society is assigned a gender—toys, colors, clothes and behaviors are just some of the more obvious examples. Through a combination of social conditioning and personal preference, by age three most children prefer activities and exhibit behaviors typically associated with their sex. Accepted social gender roles and expectations are so entrenched in our culture that most people cannot imagine any other way. As a result, individuals fitting neatly into these expectations rarely if ever question what gender really means. They have never had to, because the system has worked for them.

Similarly, being a straight man means you belong to a group which is normally the last to be the victim of any sort of gender/sexuality based oppression, making it perhaps harder to spot, or more personally irrelevant. This doesn't mean it is impossible or unreachable to care about, or to learn more of. In fact, many feminists argue that men of all kinds are needed in order for feminism to progress. Feminist scholar bell hooks writes that:

Males of all ages need settings where their resistance to sexism is affirmed and valued. Without males as allies in struggles feminist movements will not progress. As it is we have to do so much work to correct the assumption deeply embedded in the cultural psyche that feminism is anti-male. Feminism is anti-sexism. A male who has divested male privilige, who has embraced feminist politics, is a worthy comrade in the struggle, in no way a threat to feminism, whereas a female who remains wedded to the sexist thinking and behaviour inflitrating feminist movement is a dangerous threat.

An author has no duty to attend to any values and can hold to any value he or she wants. What they cannot control is how the readers chose to react to their work, whether with praise or criticism.

Hello Lyana,

Do you care to answer any of my questions? Feel like I am having a one sided conversation here! I appreciate what you say about it not being the 90's but surely some sort of context has to be taken into account? I mean if you read older literature the racism/sexism/misogyny can be pretty endemic but it is kind of a sign of the times - I am not saying this is right but I hold that context does have some import.

Just to clarify above - the reborn channeler mentioned above is Osangar not Cyndane (I was getting confused) Osangar is suspected to be Aginor.

Sorry, not ignoring you. :) Had a huge post that got eaten by the intrawebs and then I wanted to take some time and write a proper reply. However, I do believe this may be the wrong forums to really get into a longer discussion on why gender essentialism is harmful, as it should perhaps better be put in the Feminist thread with associated source material referenced, since to really make it based in reality, I prefer to get it to stand on a real factual basis or academic research.

[C.T. Phipps]

Sorry, allow me to reflect.

My general point is that you have demonstrated quite adequately there are gendered attitudes and gendered assumptions about both the male and female relationship to magic.

My point was that I don't think these impact the larger relationship of the characters to their surroundings or characters.

Just magic.

But you disagree and I know that.