Heresy 173

[Lord Ravenstark]

As to the Wolf and the Lion; Tyrion and Jon have a certain friendship in the book as written. It could refer to them but given Jaime Lannister's redemption arc I'd be more inclined to see him as the Lion in question. Jon; probably, but if he is the Wolf then that once again points to him as the son of Winterfell whom Maester Luwin proclaimed him to be rather than Jon Targaryen.

Maester and Greenseer may likewise be a single pairing. We have Sam of course as the most likely candidate for the first, but what we've discussed of late is that the greenseer is Bran himself, realising he's been sold a pup by the three-fingered tree-huggers and turning against them.

As to the desperate journeys we've similarly discussed that the journey to the heart of ice may already have happened as Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness in search of Kurtz. As to fire, we don't know but it could be something equally metaphorical in not necessarily being a geographical reference

If you are looking for a geographical reference, Winterfell is not only a symbol of ice, but also from fire. The hotsprings keep it warm, pointing a fire deep in it. Likewise, there are references to geothermal points north of the wall where wildlings live

[TheMiddleHero]

Sorry for the interruption in the discussion, but seeing as this is pretty much the only part of the forum I post in, maybe you all enjoy my chuckle as well, especially at this point in the books.

In doing my reread (again,) have to say this exchange with Tyrion and Tywin always cracks me up. It's when Tywin is about to send Tyrion to KL to be Hand:

Lord Tywin seated himself. “You have the right of it about Stark. Alive, we might have
used Lord Eddard to forge a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun, a peace that would
have given us the time we need to deal with Robert’s brothers. Dead . . . ” His hand
curled into a fist. “Madness. Rank madness.”
“Joff’s only a boy,” Tyrion pointed out. “At his age, I committed a few follies of my own.”
His father gave him a sharp look. “I suppose we ought to be grateful that he has not yet
married a whore.”

After all the crap that little ole Joffrey just pulled, he still thinks lower of Tyrion's, well, marraige should I say?

[addicted to snow]

i think it is over discussed that grrm subverts tropes. i mean, he does to a degree, but this is not abercrombie.

i think the r+l=j hints have been just overdone enough so that it can be subverted by jon being that secret targ but not the figure of legend, ptwp, etc(that is still dany)

R+L=J & the associated trope will be subverted by Jon Snow loosing his body (his blood tie to R+L=J) & then AA will be reborn into Jon's old body & make full use of Jon's 'lost' heritage... Meanwhile, Jon Snow will become the Night's King...

We have already seen Jon become separated from his body... most readers don't see it yet, but he will never return to that body... He will take Human form again, but it will be after he steals Hodor's Skin...

Jon Snow has some dark roads to walk...

[Sly Wren]

i hadn't seen that last synopsis. the main part of that is crucial to the story and i think will not be changed.

in the second act, which likely ends at the end of book 6. dany ends up taking the throne and the wall comes. down.

with the counting of the LCs suspiciously heading to 1000, i'm guessing it comes down on the 999th LC. What does it mean for the watch once the wall is down? they are too few to really mean anything at that point and the others are moving south past them. based upon that synopsis and the low number of povs in the next book, i wonder if jon is out of the action for book 6. sam is gone so the only characters that are unlikely to be other-food at the wall are jon and sam.

of course this leads to jon being the 1,000th commander after the long night, weve talked about jon choosing to be a stark over a targ a lot but maybe the choice is really comes down to resaying his vows and reestablishing the watch.

this makes sense based on the presumably late addition of rickon to the stark family. clearly, he had no role in the story and even with the five year gap was going to be too young to do much. i feel fairly safe in saying that rickon was added to be a stark in winterfell at the series end as grrm had specific ends for the rest of the starks very early

While I tend to lean towards Jon being the new King of Winter (many reasons, logical and non), can see this, too. But if so, am assuming not just "re-establishing." Seems like Jon would take the Watch closer to the original purpose--as he already kinda has (before stabbing). Even the original vow. We might find out if the "13 year" reign is actually a thing. If so, could see Rickon taking his place in 13 years--with Shaggy and his "hear your enemies cries" statements (I butchered that quote.)

Am even wondering if the re-establishment of the original oaths of the Watch might be tied to ending the Long Night. Assume it's part of keeping it at bay--but wondering if the establishment per se helps end it. Like the Last Hero potentially crying "uncle." If not, if that won't work this time--would a Watch be needed if they get a more permanent solution?

If when looking over the text elements of this can still be found then some part of the synopsis remains.In past Heresies way before the synopsis was released some of us postulated and still believe Jon and Bran will be at odds if for a while because the mythical theme of who they represent seem to point that way.That element in the synopsis is still present in the series.And like BC points out Greenseer and Maester working together,Lion and wolf hunting together is already being set up with (a) Sam going to the Citadel and ( B) the pre-existing friendship with Jon and Tyrion.

Could see this--but thinking would be because they don't know what the other is doing. Not out and out animosity. Jon's dream of Bran as a tree, touching him to explain why he likes the dark--Jon seemed (understandably) baffled. Until they can communicate more effectively, could see them at cross-purposes. Which would mean that once Bran gets better at seeing--he'd be in the position to change that and tell Jon what's up. Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

I have long wondered if their is something magical about the Tullys. They have connection to the Rivers and the trident , when they die they go to the Watery halls where they helds eternal court and has fish as they servants. And Hoster described his disease as crabs pinching. We know about the old man of the river and Crabb king who fights for control over underwater life.

Old man of the river - Hoster Tully

Crabb King- Disease

Im thinking that the Tullys once was water wizards as the Rhoynars , but this abilities is now lost and forgotten. And the watery hall stuff is similar to the Drowned god.

What does all this mean?

Not sure--but I'd been assuming that they'd learned the water stuff via the Ironborn when the Ironborn ran the Riverlands.

That said, the idea that worshipping water gods is not just Ironborn--obviously that seems to be true. Could the Tullys be left over from some water wizards? Sure. But am now also thinking that the water worship might go back to the Hammer of the Waters and the flooding of the Neck--the Tullys worship being tied into those memories. Just theorizing. Not remotely sure.

[Sly Wren]

If you are looking for a geographical reference, Winterfell is not only a symbol of ice, but also from fire. The hotsprings keep it warm, pointing a fire deep in it. Likewise, there are references to geothermal points north of the wall where wildlings live

Could be. Learning about that mix of hot and cold in Winterfell. Or visions of Hardhome (I really want to know what happened there) or Valyria. If we see Valyria as it was--could see the Doom. . .

But am also wondering about the idea that ice and fire magic are both extremes. Is looking into the Heart of Winter psychologically equivalent to the Heart of Fire? Or magically equivalent? Does learning about one extreme basically get the job done since both come from the same extreme drive and magics, just applied to a different extreme? So, maybe only need the Heart of Winter to learn the point. . . Maybe.

[wolfmaid7]

Could see this--but thinking would be because they don't know what the other is doing. Not out and out animosity. Jon's dream of Bran as a tree, touching him to explain why he likes the dark--Jon seemed (understandably) baffled. Until they can communicate more effectively, could see them at cross-purposes. Which would mean that once Bran gets better at seeing--he'd be in the position to change that and tell Jon what's up. Maybe.

This i fear is what will happen which will make it even worse.Something occured to me when re-reading Jon's experiance on the Skirling Pass.Jon was able to identify the Bran because the Weirwood tree because had Bran's face but at first when he heard the voice he was looking for a lean grey shape (Summer).Bran ofcourse recalls touching Ghost.So i'm thinking something could happen where they can't recognize eaxh other e.g Let's say if either or begins to lose themselves.

[addicted to snow]

Then again, I'm not sure if R+L=J (if true) is even supposed to come as a big shocker when it's revealed. He's not even trying to hide the hints for it by the fifth book.

No, GRRM definitely wants all readers to be fully invested in R+L=J... Martin wants his readers to build up great expectations for Jon so that GRRM can then smash those expectations... If we have learned anything from books 1-5 it is that GRRM builds expectations & then brings them crashing down... Martin wants everyone to be onboard with R+L=J...

[Black Crow]

Not particularly. While I would feel he could have done a better job of being subtle in some places, when it comes to plot twists and revelations, I'd rather an author err on giving too much information in the build-up than too little (which often makes the twist seem unplanned and pulled out of the author's rear end).

Then again, I'm not sure if R+L=J (if true) is even supposed to come as a big shocker when it's revealed. He's not even trying to hide the hints for it by the fifth book.

Here I have to disagree [in different ways] with both with yourself and Addicted. I think, notwithstanding the other candidates shortly to be unveiled and discussed in Wolfmaid's upcoming mini-series, this is something which GRRM is trying hard to manage. As I understand GRRM has said its possible to work it out from what's in the first book, and so people have and so like Topsy R+L=J has "grewed" into a cult and arguably received GRRM's own primatur in the declaration that he won't change somehing because people have worked it out...

Fair enough, but whether or not R+L=J is true, or whether GRRM was being absolutely literal in saying that a very few people had worked out the answer from his "subtle" clues and a different equation has been in play from the beginning its important to note how low key the whole business appears in the synopsis and while GRRM may not be altering anything he certainly appears to be trying to manage the expectations of R+L=Jon Targaryen with things like the reveal about Viserys being named as heir to Aerys and even going back to Maester Aemon's declaration that "You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

[Black Crow]

Just for giggles...

If we first assume for the sake of argument that Jon Snow is indeed Jon Targaryen and that subject to sorting out the question of whether he or his Auntie Danaerys has the better claim to the iron throne, there is now of course the little local difficulty of him having been rather comprehensively stabbed.

Whilst I disagree with Addicted on his theory that Jon will survive by eventually taking over Hodor's body, lets run with that one as well just for a moment.

Is he truly Jon, in a legal sense? The spirit may be there but not the Targaryen blood and body. :devil:

[Lady Dyanna]

Just for giggles...

If we first assume for the sake of argument that Jon Snow is indeed Jon Targaryen and that subject to sorting out the question of whether he or his Auntie Danaerys has the better claim to the iron throne, there is now of course the little local difficulty of him having been rather comprehensively stabbed.

Whilst I disagree with Addicted on his theory that Jon will survive by eventually taking over Hodor's body, lets run with that one as well just for a moment.

Is he truly Jon, in a legal sense? The spirit may be there but not the Targaryen blood and body. :devil:

Nor the Stark for that matter...

Plus, just because he's able to take over Hodor's body, it doesn't mean that part of Hodor isn't still there. Quite like how he runs the risk of losing more and more of himself to Ghost while warging him, wouldn't he now be at risk of losing himself to Hodor? :dunno:

[Shagwell Snow]

personally,I believe r+l=j is the most plausible of all the possible scenarios.Especially since someone mentioned an ssm saying you can work it out in agot. I don't think this makes Jon an instant hero and the answer to all planetos's beefs.I believe it just gives him the right genetic make up and potential to be someone/ something special.That would be where the fantasy trope smashing comes into it by Jon's choices with this knowledge and power.

because I can't see him being the same person if he's resurected,that wouldn't be too schmaltzy and a waste of time " killing" him by the author.

That's just my humble opinion/ramblings for you though.

[Shagwell Snow]

Edit. That WOULD be to smaltzy.

[Winterbowl]

personally,I believe r+l=j is the most plausible of all the possible scenarios.Especially since someone mentioned an ssm saying you can work it out in agot.

Other theories are very viable using only A Game of Thrones as well, inculding one in particular which is the only theory ever to provide an explanation for the False Spring...

Go ahead and read Alfie Allen's comments and see how are you have to squint to come up with R+L=J.

Anyway, here are some fun facts unrelated to RLJ. A Search of Ice and Fire is such an awesome tool. These thoughts may be a little disconnected.

1. The term 'white walker' is used ONLY TEN TIMES throughout the whole series, and is never capitalized.

2. the phrase 'the others' (all lowercase and not referring to the race directly...) is used on THREE seperate occasions when the Night's Watchmen are discussing Benjen's dissapearance.

3. "Think the white walkers will care if you have a hostage?" Actually Hali, the white walkers might care if Bran Stark is your hostage...

4. "Mance think's he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers." That's actually EXACTLY what I've theorized the white walkers are, just rangers for their much colder masters. Love discovering little wordplay like this that supports your ideas.

5. Is white walker just a Wildling term for Other? I couldn't find any disproof of the idea. Nor would I necessarily expect to with the way GRRM constructs these novels. If the Ice Spiders are ridden by something new we haven't yet seen like I believe then I think we're just going to have to wait for them for proof. They're coming, if the show mentions them.. then they're coming. Notably perhaps, Sam does use the word white walkers once, but he could have picked up that terminology. And Mormont says white walker exactly one time but then used 'the Others' on a seperate occasion. He only seems to refer to them those two times that I could find.

6. 'White walker' is never used by a character not at or beyond the wall. What this leads me to believe is that they are purely a Northern Phenomen and have been for possibly quite some time. We see them ride undead mounts, sure, but Ice Spiders are conspicuously absent. No sexual terror either, and it's hard to believe that was completely made up. Ser Puddles simply doesn't hunt maidens in the night, he just carries out simple tasks like an automaton from what we've seen in the books and the show. Are the wights the true terror? Maybe, they do seem to be a bigger problem than Craster's Boys but it's no secret that fire kills them dead. Even one dragon would roast every single wight and they'd have no way to fight back whatsoever.

So, as for me, I'm still utterly unconvinced we've seen the Others. And I see all the possibilties that GRRM can hit his readers upside the head with when they think they know all there is to know about them... No my friends, until we've seen those Ice Spiders, one would be a fool to discount the old 1993 letter. Half-forgotten Demons out of legend? Honestly Craster's Boys are a bit of joke.

[Shagwell Snow]

So you're suggesting that all of the beings,be they wights,ser puddles or Royce's killer's,that we've seen upto now are just diminutive servants of the true Others?That these true Others are the ones who ride ice spiders big as hounds and sire half human children? I find this interesting,as there's always been slight differences, in my mind at least,to old Nan's description to what we've seen so far.Though Royce's killer's could of parked the spiders up before dealing with Royce.

Its plausible but I'd need more to be 100% in this camp.

I've not seen Alfie Allen's comments,but I'd be happy to read them if you could provide a link.The false spring theory is something I've never come across and again I'm happy to hear it.My only problem is I can't see how much Alfie is going to influence my beliefs that much as he's just an actor in a show not a fly on the wall of a 1990's author's study,or in anyway involved in grrm's writing process.That said I'm up for being surprised.cheers

[TheSmallOther]

Other theories are very viable using only A Game of Thrones as well, inculding one in particular which is the only theory ever to provide an explanation for the False Spring...

Go ahead and read Alfie Allen's comments and see how are you have to squint to come up with R+L=J.

Anyway, here are some fun facts unrelated to RLJ. A Search of Ice and Fire is such an awesome tool. These thoughts may be a little disconnected.

1. The term 'white walker' is used ONLY TEN TIMES throughout the whole series, and is never capitalized.

2. the phrase 'the others' (all lowercase and not referring to the race directly...) is used on THREE seperate occasions when the Night's Watchmen are discussing Benjen's dissapearance.

3. "Think the white walkers will care if you have a hostage?" Actually Hali, the white walkers might care if Bran Stark is your hostage...

4. "Mance think's he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers." That's actually EXACTLY what I've theorized the white walkers are, just rangers for their much colder masters. Love discovering little wordplay like this that supports your ideas.

5. Is white walker just a Wildling term for Other? I couldn't find any disproof of the idea. Nor would I necessarily expect to with the way GRRM constructs these novels. If the Ice Spiders are ridden by something new we haven't yet seen like I believe then I think we're just going to have to wait for them for proof. They're coming, if the show mentions them.. then they're coming. Notably perhaps, Sam does use the word white walkers once, but he could have picked up that terminology. And Mormont says white walker exactly one time but then used 'the Others' on a seperate occasion. He only seems to refer to them those two times that I could find.

6. 'White walker' is never used by a character not at or beyond the wall. What this leads me to believe is that they are purely a Northern Phenomen and have been for possibly quite some time. We see them ride undead mounts, sure, but Ice Spiders are conspicuously absent. No sexual terror either, and it's hard to believe that was completely made up. Ser Puddles simply doesn't hunt maidens in the night, he just carries out simple tasks like an automaton from what we've seen in the books and the show. Are the wights the true terror? Maybe, they do seem to be a bigger problem than Craster's Boys but it's no secret that fire kills them dead. Even one dragon would roast every single wight and they'd have no way to fight back whatsoever.

So, as for me, I'm still utterly unconvinced we've seen the Others. And I see all the possibilties that GRRM can hit his readers upside the head with when they think they know all there is to know about them... No my friends, until we've seen those Ice Spiders, one would be a fool to discount the old 1993 letter. Half-forgotten Demons out of legend? Honestly Craster's Boys are a bit of joke.

Indeed. There are few theories floating around which talk about hierarchies in the orders of Others. These theories claim we've only seen a part of Others.

[Shagwell Snow]

Indeed. There are few theories floating around which talk about hierarchies in the orders of Others. These theories claim we've only seen a part of Others.

Are you convinced by theories?

If this came to be the case it would blow my mind.

Indeed. There are few theories floating around which talk about hierarchies in the orders of Others. These theories claim we've only seen a part of Others.

[Amoracchius]

Tullys don't show up until after the Andals arrive and are fighting initially on the side of the First Men, or at least on the side of one of the last Mudds, Tristifer IV (wasn't he the same guy who has that sepulcher at Oldstones in the middle of the field? Now I'm starting to get more meaning behind that scene... you'll get what I mean if you see my crackpot below) who fought with him in every battle until the last one where he died.

From that I got the impression they either were Andal sellswords who fought for the Mudds for coin, or they were First Men nobodys who profited off of the death of the Mudds--awfully fishy that the first Tully, Edmure Tully, is knighted in the aftermath of turning sides. Even odder when you consider that his son Axel got the lands to build Riverrun from the Vances not too long thereafter.

My crackpot theory is that the Tullys are a bastard branch of the Mudds (hence why they can claim to have the blood of kings of old), which would make Cat's statements about bastards turning on their kin even more ironic--as that would be the act her house is founded upon. But that's crackpot. :drunk:

The overall impression I got from TWOIAF is that what the Freys did to the Tullys, what the Tullys have been doing to their overlords for centuries, which makes the Red Wedding rather ironic. Not the specifics of the Red Wedding, for sure, but switching sides after fighting loyally for a long while so that they can profit from it? That I see is the history of House Tully from generation down to generation, and makes Lord Walder's comments all the more potent, because it is the unvarnished truth. The Tullys had forgotten the messy beginnings of their house and dressed themselves up in finery and piousness, by the time we meet them, and they forgot just how they had gotten power, and they lost their power just as their ancestors had gained it.

That's at least, my interpretation, given the text and TWOIAF.

I like this a lot. Very interesting, thanks for sharing. :cheers:

[Prince of Ghost]

personally,I believe r+l=j is the most plausible of all the possible scenarios.Especially since someone mentioned an ssm saying you can work it out in agot. I don't think this makes Jon an instant hero and the answer to all planetos's beefs.I believe it just gives him the right genetic make up and potential to be someone/ something special.That would be where the fantasy trope smashing comes into it by Jon's choices with this knowledge and power.

because I can't see him being the same person if he's resurected,that wouldn't be too schmaltzy and a waste of time " killing" him by the author.

That's just my humble opinion/ramblings for you though.

I want to see the SSM that shows GRRM saying that someone only needs AGOT to know who Jon's parents are.

[Shagwell Snow]

ISomeone said it upthread or in 172,fucked if I'm trawling through all that to dig out somebody else's quote though these threads are monstrous.Besides,my opinion still stands without the reference to clues in agot.