Heresy 173

[Matthew.]

I have a somewhat crackpot theory that Maggy's prophecy is a construct of Cersei's increasing paranoia. I'm sure Cersei met a fortune teller named Maggy who sucked her blood. However, I suspect Maggy just gave her and Melara something incredibly vague, and in her own mind, Cersei keeps adding specific details to it. Notice how the prophecy increasingly becomes more and more detailed the more delusional and paranoid Cersei becomes throughtout Feast.

Possibly, and I think this is the one route Martin could go that would make me hate the prophecy less.

Even so, I don't agree with any broader notions that the "point" of prophecy is the actions characters take in trying to either fulfill or prevent prophecies. There are certainly important instances where this is true, but by and large, the visions that Martin has shared with the reader have served the purpose of either foreshadowing, or being a puzzle for the reader to solve--almost all of the Ghost of High Heart's visions fall into this category, as well as many of Dany's HotU visions, much of what Melisandre glimpses in her flames at the Wall, Moqorro's visions, and stuff like "the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." 

[Sly Wren]

I completely agree, in terms of the cotf being complex creatures capable of favorable intent, or ill. But, I would have to disagree that it's been demonstrated they have a human-like range of emotions. Leaf seems quite apathetic.

Fair enough--though apathy is a human "state." Still, not sure I trust her yet considering what's in that cave. And for "apathetic" souls, they are actively engaged in some kind of endeavor. . . 

 

1. Precisely.

Precisely to which option? Both? If both, then we could be being lulled into trusting one of the causes--the Children. If we haven't seen it yet--seems like we should have had a hint by now--though absence of evidence isn't evidence per se. 

 

1. I think in this universe, there is no such thing as "regular winter", all seasons are magically driven, rather than physically. But yes, the Long Night was nothing, if not supernatural.

 

Where I disagree is that the Last Hero is not simply a story told at a woman's tit. (Although we are more fool than Waymar Royce to dismiss such stories.) His deeds are also recorded in the annals of Castle Black.

 

2. The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

 

3. The fact that we see them before winter, I believe, is quite telling. They've been lurking in the far north all this time. There's no telling how many sable-cloaked lordlings they've butchered every summer for the past 8000 years.

 

4. Antibodies.

 

5. :cheers: And, in my mind, this is precisely the problem with cotf being behind them as well. Cotf are mortal. They sing the song of earth. They forge no metal. Yet, they created magical beings of ice that hold longswords? It doesn't add up.

1. Agreed--only question is what exactly did he do, how did it all work. The idea that details have been left out is held up by Nan's stories--she gives us a lot--and leaves lots of gaps.

 

2, 3, 4--one problem I've got with this is that we don't have a precedent. A supernatural reaction by "nature" or "the land"--closest thing I can think of is greyscale. But that could just be a disease. Or a leftover from the Doom--which I think was worked magic.

 

We have precedents of humans engaging magics and creating nasty things--as you said earlier--humans/sentient beings make the monsters. Not nature--will makes monsters in this universe. Can't think of a precedent in the books that shows nature/land/the world/trees reacting per se. Could Martin spring it on us? Sure. But even when he's "gotcha-ed" us, there's some hint in the text. Can't see one yet for antibodies. Always happy to be corrected.

 

5. Agree that what we've been told of the Children in WB and by Lewin says that's what the Children are. But what little we've seen in the cave--can't think of anything that says the WB's maesters and Luwin and even Meera and Jojen are absolutely right in their interp. We've got lots of precedent for people not being what they seem and what we've been told--can't see why that wouldn't apply to the Children.

[Black Crow]

Agree that what we've been told of the Children in WB and by Lewin says that's what the Children are. But what little we've seen in the cave--can't think of anything that says the WB's maesters and Luwin and even Meera and Jojen are absolutely right in their interp. We've got lots of precedent for people not being what they seem and what we've been told--can't see why that wouldn't apply to the Children.

 

Add to which, what do we really know about the children of the forest, or the singers as they call themselves?

 

When it really really comes down to it we actually know little and less. They live in the forest in wooden cities or in hollow hills, presumably according to season. They hunt with weapons tipped with dragonglass and wear stealth clothing. Their wise men are greenseers who eventually go into the trees and perhaps become the Old Gods, and it all centres around these weirwood trees on which they carve [really really really?] faces and make blood sacrifices.

 

And supposedly they "helped" the Last Hero during the Long Night.

 

Its hardly a basis for reading them as friendly allies.

[wolfmaid7]

 

Add to which, what do we really know about the children of the forest, or the singers as they call themselves?

 

When it really really comes down to it we actually know little and less. They live in the forest in wooden cities or in hollow hills, presumably according to season. They hunt with weapons tipped with dragonglass and wear stealth clothing. Their wise men are greenseers who eventually go into the trees and perhaps become the Old Gods, and it all centres around these weirwood trees on which they carve [really really really?] faces and make blood sacrifices.

 

And supposedly they "helped" the Last Hero during the Long Night.

 

Its hardly a basis for reading them as friendly allies.

Agree for the most part with this and would remind us all that there are two histories involved.What men wrote and what the Trees remember and we have yet to get "their" side of how everything went down and i think through Bran we will finally know what happened.

 

I guess a bigger question to ask is what do you do when your home is no longer your home? Not for you or other outcasts!

 

So what do you?

[Lord Ravenstark]

I think I missed the discussion and the lack of search doesn't help. If the inhuman others are rising undead and neverborn, the neverborn are not in fact the Others.

 

So, who are the neverborn? Are they the ones who duelled Ser Roymar, like Ser Puddles. If so, who are rising them? If they are not the neverborn, what are the neverborn then?

[Black Crow]

I think I missed the discussion and the lack of search doesn't help. If the inhuman others are rising undead and neverborn, the neverborn are not in fact the Others.

 

So, who are the neverborn? Are they the ones who duelled Ser Roymar, like Ser Puddles. If so, who are rising them? If they are not the neverborn, what are the neverborn then?

 

Its confusing certainly and I'd say that at the stage GRRM wrote that as a sales pitch he hadn't really firmed up in his mind exactly what they were going to be. Remember the Tommy Patterson email:

 

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words.

[Matthew.]

 

Its hardly a basis for reading them as friendly allies.

 

And yet, it's still more basis than we have for reading them as the masterminds behind the Others and the wights. There's the WB's tale that it's the CotF's aide that enabled the men of the Night's Watch to "fight and win" the Battle for the Dawn, Maester Luwin's supposed era of peace following the Pact, and tales of FM and their CotF allies fighting off Andals.

That doesn't mean any of that is true, yet the idea of alliances do exist in legends, in the oral tradition.

I'll repeat again: We're assuming that Mormont would know what "the trees have eyes again" means, it's implications. Okay, yet when reports of the WWs stirring up were coming in, Mormont did not immediately jump to "the trees must have eyes again," nor did confirmation of WWs and wights on the Fist lead him to the conclusion that the CotF must be sought out, or that men are under threat from the CotF.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're not responsible, but if they are, this doesn't seem to be something that is a part of the tales, or a part of the modern NW's knowledge.

[Lady Dyanna]

Add to which, what do we really know about the children of the forest, or the singers as they call themselves?
 
When it really really comes down to it we actually know little and less. They live in the forest in wooden cities or in hollow hills, presumably according to season. They hunt with weapons tipped with dragonglass and wear stealth clothing. Their wise men are greenseers who eventually go into the trees and perhaps become the Old Gods, and it all centres around these weirwood trees on which they carve [really really really?] faces and make blood sacrifices.
 
And supposedly they "helped" the Last Hero during the Long Night.
 
Its hardly a basis for reading them as friendly allies.

I agree that we don't know very much about the CotF. The possibility certainly exists for them to go either way. However, I do think that it's important that we take the entire scene in context that results in the warning of the trees having eyes. This all occurs directly following Jon's dream of the wildings at the Milkwater. It starts with him seeing Bran's face in the tree and he tells the others this.

[Black Crow]

I agree that we don't know very much about the CotF. The possibility certainly exists for them to go either way. However, I do think that it's important that we take the entire scene in context that results in the warning of the trees having eyes. This all occurs directly following Jon's dream of the wildings at the Milkwater. It starts with him seeing Bran's face in the tree and he tells the others this.

 

Yes, I'd agree that's by far the most likely explanation for the trees have eyes again business, and also for the old powers awakening. Qhorin took Jon on that recce because of who he was. In effect he was using him as a canary or rather perhaps as a piece of litmus paper. After the dream his other men recognised Jon as a warg but were pretty matter of fact about it. They've come across wargs before and didn't run away screaming or reach for their pitchforks. What was more important was not his seeing what Ghost could see, but the tree looking at him and speaking to him; that's what alerted Qhorin that the old powers are awakening

[Black Crow]

I'll repeat again: We're assuming that Mormont would know what "the trees have eyes again" means, it's implications. Okay, yet when reports of the WWs stirring up were coming in, Mormont did not immediately jump to "the trees must have eyes again," nor did confirmation of WWs and wights on the Fist lead him to the conclusion that the CotF must be sought out, or that men are under threat from the CotF.

 

But that's the point about his reaction to the white walkers being seen on the shore near Eastwatch. He knows what they are, but he's not running around screaming that the Others are back after all these years. They've been around, they're the white shadows in the woods, but just not this close before. Qhorin also warns of giants and wargs and worse. Again they've been around too. Its the "darker things" in Mormont's dreams, and as I said earlier essentially what Qhorin's warning boils down to is that the tree coming into the Stark boy's dreams means that the old powers are awakening, and all the powers of hell are ranged against us.

[wolfmaid7]

 

And yet, it's still more basis than we have for reading them as the masterminds behind the Others and the wights. There's the WB's tale that it's the CotF's aide that enabled the men of the Night's Watch to "fight and win" the Battle for the Dawn, Maester Luwin's supposed era of peace following the Pact, and tales of FM and their CotF allies fighting off Andals.

That doesn't mean any of that is true, yet the idea of alliances do exist in legends, in the oral tradition.

I'll repeat again: We're assuming that Mormont would know what "the trees have eyes again" means, it's implications. Okay, yet when reports of the WWs stirring up were coming in, Mormont did not immediately jump to "the trees must have eyes again," nor did confirmation of WWs and wights on the Fist lead him to the conclusion that the CotF must be sought out, or that men are under threat from the CotF.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're not responsible, but if they are, this doesn't seem to be something that is a part of the tales, or a part of the modern NW's knowledge.

I agree in some part,specifically the idea that the COTF are the masterminds behind the wws and the wws.However,i would suggest again we might want to consider not treating them as an entire people void of factions.We know from the WB some COTF,greenseers and men were allied against other men. I dug this up on another thread and its interesting and i would have liked to have gotten the exact quotes but hey the gist is the same:

 

Another interesting thing from the con, at one point in a panel GRRM was commenting that he didn't like how in a lot of fantasy stories various races are all defined by a single personality (i.e. all orcs are evil, all elves are wise, etc), whereas it would be more realistic for various individuals within a race to have different personalities, viewpoints, etc. Some quick-witted audience member asked him how that idea applied to the Others in his own books, to which he replied, "I'm not gonna answer that." Food for thought.

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133255-the-others-evil-grrms-words/

 

Yes, I'd agree that's by far the most likely explanation for the trees have eyes again business, and also for the old powers awakening. Qhorin took Jon on that recce because of who he was. In effect he was using him as a canary or rather perhaps as a piece of litmus paper. After the dream his other men recognised Jon as a warg but were pretty matter of fact about it. They've come across wargs before and didn't run away screaming or reach for their pitchforks. What was more important was not his seeing what Ghost could see, but the tree looking at him and speaking to him; that's what alerted Qhorin that the old powers are awakening

:agree:

[Balerion06]

Possibly, and I think this is the one route Martin could go that would make me hate the prophecy less.

Even so, I don't agree with any broader notions that the "point" of prophecy is the actions characters take in trying to either fulfill or prevent prophecies. There are certainly important instances where this is true, but by and large, the visions that Martin has shared with the reader have served the purpose of either foreshadowing, or being a puzzle for the reader to solve--almost all of the Ghost of High Heart's visions fall into this category, as well as many of Dany's HotU visions, much of what Melisandre glimpses in her flames at the Wall, Moqorro's visions, and stuff like "the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." 

I agree, I'm not the biggest fan of prophecy. The only reason I can somewhat tolerate the House of the Undying is because it shows Dany visions of multiple futures, some that we know will never come to pass like Rhaego. So in that way it makes sense that some of those prophecies were bound to come true but others were not.
I'm reserving judgement on the prophecies until the series is done and we see where Martin's going with them, but like you, so far I'm not really a fan.
My theory about Cersei is just my coping mechanism, I guess haha

[Matthew.]

Random overanalysis: Dany, born a few months after the end of Robert's Rebellion, is 13 at the start of aGoT. In the North, it would have presumably taken a few months for Eddard to return, set his house in order, and for Benjen to then join the NW. My point being--Benjen may have been a brother of the NW for 13 years at the time of his disappearance, the same length as the NK's tenure as LC. In GRRM's 1993 outline, Benjen was originally going to be the LC of the NW, not just the First Ranger.

 

[Black Crow]

Even so, and while in all honesty it doesn't really have the text to back it up. We have six white walkers in the prologue, and we have white walkers on the shore near Eastwatch - how many? Six brothers again? And then we have Ser Puddles makes 13.

[Black Crow]

I think in this case its probably to the same point others have brought up in previous Heresy's I've managed to read (newbie here still!) -- it doesn't necessarily matter as long as people believe it has the power to do so and act accordingly. Such as the argument that its irrelevant that Stannis Baratheon isn't Azor Ahai Reborn (a popular thought that he isn't) because Melisandre and the Queen's men believe he is and act accordingly. 

 

Pretty much so, and belatedly; welcome to Heresy.

[Voice]

Fair enough--though apathy is a human "state." Still, not sure I trust her yet considering what's in that cave. And for "apathetic" souls, they are actively engaged in some kind of endeavor. . .

 

We agree. I was only pointing out that what we have not seen from the cotf is the sense of revenge, or vengeance, that BC likes to suggest.

 

Precisely to which option? Both? If both, then we could be being lulled into trusting one of the causes--the Children. If we haven't seen it yet--seems like we should have had a hint by now--though absence of evidence isn't evidence per se.

 

I was speaking more to your idea that we have not yet seen what is behind the Others. And, that if we have, we may have been lulled into a false sense of security regarding it. It might even feel like home. :devil:

 

1. Agreed--only question is what exactly did he do, how did it all work. The idea that details have been left out is held up by Nan's stories--she gives us a lot--and leaves lots of gaps.

 

There are always gaps, of course, but the story of the Last Hero seems pretty detailed to me. 12 companions. Aid from cotf. The Others could not stand against him. Long Night ends.

 

2, 3, 4--one problem I've got with this is that we don't have a precedent. A supernatural reaction by "nature" or "the land"--closest thing I can think of is greyscale. But that could just be a disease. Or a leftover from the Doom--which I think was worked magic.

 

We have precedents of humans engaging magics and creating nasty things--as you said earlier--humans/sentient beings make the monsters. Not nature--will makes monsters in this universe. Can't think of a precedent in the books that shows nature/land/the world/trees reacting per se. Could Martin spring it on us? Sure. But even when he's "gotcha-ed" us, there's some hint in the text. Can't see one yet for antibodies. Always happy to be corrected.

 

You're right to be skeptical. Even I am, and it's my theory. LOL

 

I think there must have been a very real, and very terrible, reason why the cotf were willing to give away most of the continent to save their trees.

 

5. Agree that what we've been told of the Children in WB and by Lewin says that's what the Children are. But what little we've seen in the cave--can't think of anything that says the WB's maesters and Luwin and even Meera and Jojen are absolutely right in their interp. We've got lots of precedent for people not being what they seem and what we've been told--can't see why that wouldn't apply to the Children.

 

Sure. But, you must admit that we've seen nothing in the cave that conflicts with Luwin's account, Old Nan's account, Bran's father's whimsical tales of the cotf, nor the WB's version.

 

Once your eyes are looking for monsters in the dark (thanks to Mel lol), it's hard not to see them. But, in the text, the cave-dwellers - BR and the cotf - have done nothing at all to warrant that label. If anything, their behavior only supports the interp of the Citadel, wetnurses, and crannogmen alike.

[Voice]

Add to which, what do we really know about the children of the forest, or the singers as they call themselves?

 

When it really really comes down to it we actually know little and less. They live in the forest in wooden cities or in hollow hills, presumably according to season. They hunt with weapons tipped with dragonglass and wear stealth clothing. Their wise men are greenseers who eventually go into the trees and perhaps become the Old Gods, and it all centres around these weirwood trees on which they carve [really really really?] faces and make blood sacrifices.

 

And supposedly they "helped" the Last Hero during the Long Night.

 

Its hardly a basis for reading them as friendly allies.

 

Funny, but to me, it does. I'm not hearing the villainy I think you are trying to convey.

 

I guess blood sacrifices can be seen that way, but what if the victim was a justly-judged villain himself? Even then, we've yet to see the cotf make such sacrifices.

[Voice]

I think I missed the discussion and the lack of search doesn't help. If the inhuman others are rising undead and neverborn, the neverborn are not in fact the Others.

 

So, who are the neverborn? Are they the ones who duelled Ser Roymar, like Ser Puddles. If so, who are rising them? If they are not the neverborn, what are the neverborn then?

 

Precisely the question raised by Bran's "querulous" correction of Old Nan, and which I've tried to answer, here.

 

Bran IV AGOT...

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

(wrong)

 

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

 

(not so fast there, old lady)

 

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

 

(not all "Others" are white walkers, the terms are not completely synonymous...which begs the question: Who were the Others that came in the Long Night?)

[Black Crow]

 

Funny, but to me, it does. I'm not hearing the villainy I think you are trying to convey.

 

I guess blood sacrifices can be seen that way, but what if the victim was a justly-judged villain himself? Even then, we've yet to see the cotf make such sacrifices.

 

I think that the problem with this particular argument is that I'm not trying to convey villainy at all. They can be, and I'm arguing that they are, adversaries without villainy.

 

And on that note I think its opportune to shift the argument to Heresy 174. See you over there.