Why do people say it is the books fault season 5 was bad?

[Cas Stark]

I don't believe they are stalling. GRRM doesn't appear to be someone who is done or nearly done with the next book, which would be the only reason to stall, if they strongly believed he would have Winds out before season 6. And, if they were really stalling they never would have killed Stannis in such a hamfisted way.

Thus, I don't think the books can really be blamed for the majority of the problems with season 5, since there were all kinds of pacing, story and continuity issues that are "TV only" and have nothing to do with the books, as well: Dorne, cannot be blamed on GRRM since that plot was totally show only.

[The Jomsviking]

Where are you getting this info of significant drop from? I know that general opinion is that there is a drop, but it like from 5* do 4*, not from a 5* do turd (if I use your analogy from firs post).

You are correct of course, the Amazon ratings make calling it a turd a little harsh. That being said, if you actually read the reviews you'll see that the top three give it a score of 3, 2 and 2. Most of the high scores have reviews that say a variation of either: 'It got really slow in this book, and some of the plots go nowhere, but still...', or: 'Anyone who doesn't love these books has a short attention span and should either just watch Pokemon re-runs or check themselves into a home for people with special needs.' Most professional reviews acknowledge the drop in quality and usually clarify that by stating these books are much better than most new fantasy books. I think that if the first book was like the last one, I would not have been interested in continuing with the series.

[The Golden Wolf]

Dorne did suck. Elleria by going after Myrcella was actually disrespecting her beloved's memory. He was specifically aiming for the ones who hurt Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys i.e. Tywin, Lorch, and Gregor. It is not Myrcella's fault that Oberyon head got squished like a grape but Elleria still wants to harm her. At least Arriane wanted to use Myrcella to gain power not just start a stupid and pointless war.

Sansa's Winterfell storyline was fucking awful there was nothing good about it especially after last season where it seemed she was coming into her own, This season all the potential growth got squashed and Sansa went back to being a victim. hell she showed more strength in Kingslanding!

Stannis.......man that was just......it was wrong.

Jon's storyline was not satisfying at all either.

Brienne's (and Jaime's to lesser extent)entire story in the books 4-5 helps us to get a grasp of the larger impact the war has had on Westeros besides the affect it has had on the Great Houses. by cutting all of that out this season we got nothing to further expand the world.

also one of the largest things that bugged me this season is that they seemed to forget just how big Westeros is or even it basic geography. There is no going around Moat Caillin unless you are or know the Crannogmen or have a freaking boat and even then you would have a very long trip to Winterfell. People were moving all across Westeros like the had airplanes.

understand that I watched the 1st season before reading the books.

[Tolsimir]

No, Dorne didn't "suck" to me. Would I like MORE Dorne? Yes, but when you take the overall arc of the show, it's not a very big part of the story compared with everything else, and I'm thankful we got it at all.

I also thought the change to "Your Sister." made a lot more sense, and was waaaay more personal than, "Only Cat." to the show audience.

But then I don't think it's cool and fashionable to hate on D&D and the show, or to compare the books to the show (and please stop accusing everyone who doesn't share your views with "blaming the books.")

Uh that's not the scene I was talking about. And just btw, looking back it is obvious why they changed the line. For the same reason that they changed Asha to Yara. They think their audience is stupid.

And do you really think I am hating the show to be ''cool''? I don't. I want this show to be the best thing ever. I want to talk with other people about how awesome it is, but I just can't. The more it goes on the less effort they put in characterization, which should be the main focus. Instead they just go for as much shocks as possible with a little bit of action and nudity mixed in. Oh and rape. And it's frustrating because they have a better story already written. Yet they chose to ignore it.

[El Guapo]

Season 5 to me was a great season. I enjoyed it quite a bit but yeah Dorne was awful. No doubt about that.

[Khal Boner]

Oh and rape. And it's frustrating because they have a better story already written. Yet they chose to ignore it.

So you'd have been happy for them to faithfully depict the Jeyne degradation/rape scenes from the books?

[ShadowKitteh]

Dorne did suck. Elleria by going after Myrcella was actually disrespecting her beloved's memory. He was specifically aiming for the ones who hurt Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys i.e. Tywin, Lorch, and Gregor. It is not Myrcella's fault that Oberyon head got squished like a grape but Elleria still wants to harm her. At least Arriane wanted to use Myrcella to gain power not just start a stupid and pointless war.

Sansa's Winterfell storyline was fucking awful there was nothing good about it especially after last season where it seemed she was coming into her own, This season all the potential growth got squashed and Sansa went back to being a victim. hell she showed more strength in Kingslanding!

Stannis.......man that was just......it was wrong.

Jon's storyline was not satisfying at all either.

Brienne's (and Jaime's to lesser extent)entire story in the books 4-5 helps us to get a grasp of the larger impact the war has had on Westeros besides the affect it has had on the Great Houses. by cutting all of that out this season we got nothing to further expand the world.

also one of the largest things that bugged me this season is that they seemed to forget just how big Westeros is or even it basic geography. There is no going around Moat Caillin unless you are or know the Crannogmen or have a freaking boat and even then you would have a very long trip to Winterfell. People were moving all across Westeros like the had airplanes.

understand that I watched the 1st season before reading the books.

In 24, Jack Bauer got around Los Angeles as if it was his own 1000 yard street. People who live here know that's insane, and even with empty freeways, you can't get from Burbank to Long Beach in 10 min.

People who don't live here, or have never been here, probably didn't let it bother them. People who live here, and loved the show, probably just decided to get on the bus anyway and enjoy the story.

Those who couldn't get past that, probably just stopped watching it.

GoT is a TV show that's covering seven 1000 page novels, in only 70 hours. It's just not possible to contain everything the books do, and because they have to have a plot line that makes sense, have to cut things that are extraneous, while inventing things to create cohesion with the plot they're keeping. Inventing Ros was much better than having the multitude of named whores that are in King's Landing.

They don't think their audience is stupid. They KNOW that the majority of their audience haven't read the books EVEN ONCE. Changing Asha to Yara makes sense when you have another character at the same time with a name that sounds almost identical to another one. Of course it's easier in the books to differentiate between Osha and Asha. You're seeing those names on the page, not hearing an actor speak them. It's much different if you've never seen those two names, and only HEAR them uttered by people with British accents that some people have a hard time understanding.

[Sword Swallower]

Who knows what kind of deal Martin and D&D have. They may have agreed to leave some things unspoiled for the books; therefore they're going to do flashbacks and such until the books are released. Just a thought but it's hard to know what all they've negotiated behind the scenes.

[lancerman]

-Books 4-5 only had one stories worth of material for all the main characters

-Books 4-5 had a lot of expanding of the plot and world building

-Books 4-5 had storylines featuring almost entirely new casts of character that only had very loose connections to the main story (Dorne, Greyjoys, Aegon)

-Books 4-5 had a lot of characterization but not much in the way of plot progression (specifically with Sansa, Arya, Tyrion)

-Books 4-5 are a lot of buildup without climaxes. The Northern storyline is about the battle of Winterfell which we never see, Sansa doesn't progress much out of the Vale, Arya is only in the midst of her training, Cersie has her walk but she's really gearing up for the trial, Dorne and Greyjoy plots are really only just revealing the real intentions of their storylines, Jamie and Brienne are headed for a reckoning with Stoneheart that we don't get to, Mereen is not resolved.

-The two characters that have something of a climax are Jon Snow and Dany who still only end on cliffhangers.

-They aren't very cinematic books.

They also don't follow a traditional story arc.

Book 1:

Act 1 the Starks are in Winterfell, Aryn is dead, Bran falls, Eddard decides to go to KL to figure out what is going on, Dany marries Khal Drogo.

Act 2 Eddard is investigating in KL and finds out about the incest, Jon is learning at the Wall, Dany wins favor with Drogo and Viserys dies.

Act 3 Eddard is arrested for treason and is killed which spawns the Northern independence War, Jon finds out about the others and they decide to go beyond the Wall, Drogo dies and Dany gets Dragons.

Very simple 3 acts.

You can do that with the second book as well. For Westeros Act 1 is about the preparation for the ensuing war. Act 2 is about Renly dying and Stannis taking the power in the War. Act 3 is Blackwater. For Dany Act 1 is traveling to Qarth, act 2 is getting in Qarth, act 3 is the Undying chapter and leaving. Same for Jon from leaving Castle Black to faking a desertion by killing Halfhand.

Books 4 and 5, even if you don't combine them, don't have a structure like that.

[Khal Boner]

-Books 4-5 only had one stories worth of material for all the main characters

-Books 4-5 had a lot of expanding of the plot and world building

-Books 4-5 had storylines featuring almost entirely new casts of character that only had very loose connections to the main story (Dorne, Greyjoys, Aegon)

-Books 4-5 had a lot of characterization but not much in the way of plot progression (specifically with Sansa, Arya, Tyrion)

-Books 4-5 are a lot of buildup without climaxes. The Northern storyline is about the battle of Winterfell which we never see, Sansa doesn't progress much out of the Vale, Arya is only in the midst of her training, Cersie has her walk but she's really gearing up for the trial, Dorne and Greyjoy plots are really only just revealing the real intentions of their storylines, Jamie and Brienne are headed for a reckoning with Stoneheart that we don't get to, Mereen is not resolved.

-The two characters that have something of a climax are Jon Snow and Dany who still only end on cliffhangers.

-They aren't very cinematic books.

They also don't follow a traditional story arc.

Book 1:

Act 1 the Starks are in Winterfell, Aryn is dead, Bran falls, Eddard decides to go to KL to figure out what is going on, Dany marries Khal Drogo.

Act 2 Eddard is investigating in KL and finds out about the incest, Jon is learning at the Wall, Dany wins favor with Drogo and Viserys dies.

Act 3 Eddard is arrested for treason and is killed which spawns the Northern independence War, Jon finds out about the others and they decide to go beyond the Wall, Drogo dies and Dany gets Dragons.

Very simple 3 acts.

You can do that with the second book as well. For Westeros Act 1 is about the preparation for the ensuing war. Act 2 is about Renly dying and Stannis taking the power in the War. Act 3 is Blackwater. For Dany Act 1 is traveling to Qarth, act 2 is getting in Qarth, act 3 is the Undying chapter and leaving. Same for Jon from leaving Castle Black to faking a desertion by killing Halfhand.

Books 4 and 5, even if you don't combine them, don't have a structure like that.

That's a great post dude. You have some experience of screenwriting I think.

[shadow282]

Who knows what kind of deal Martin and D&D have. They may have agreed to leave some things unspoiled for the books; therefore they're going to do flashbacks and such until the books are released. Just a thought but it's hard to know what all they've negotiated behind the scenes.

We do. They didn't agree to that, they're not going to do flashbacks until the books are released. They're ending it with the same major plot points as George in the next 2 seasons.

[Hmmmmwhat]

1-3: Great books well adapted = good stuff.
4-5: Not as great books questionably adapted = bad stuff.

//Thread

[ShadowKitteh]

-Books 4-5 only had one stories worth of material for all the main characters

-Books 4-5 had a lot of expanding of the plot and world building

-Books 4-5 had storylines featuring almost entirely new casts of character that only had very loose connections to the main story (Dorne, Greyjoys, Aegon)

-Books 4-5 had a lot of characterization but not much in the way of plot progression (specifically with Sansa, Arya, Tyrion)

-Books 4-5 are a lot of buildup without climaxes. The Northern storyline is about the battle of Winterfell which we never see, Sansa doesn't progress much out of the Vale, Arya is only in the midst of her training, Cersie has her walk but she's really gearing up for the trial, Dorne and Greyjoy plots are really only just revealing the real intentions of their storylines, Jamie and Brienne are headed for a reckoning with Stoneheart that we don't get to, Mereen is not resolved.

-The two characters that have something of a climax are Jon Snow and Dany who still only end on cliffhangers.

-They aren't very cinematic books.

They also don't follow a traditional story arc.

Book 1:

Act 1 the Starks are in Winterfell, Aryn is dead, Bran falls, Eddard decides to go to KL to figure out what is going on, Dany marries Khal Drogo.

Act 2 Eddard is investigating in KL and finds out about the incest, Jon is learning at the Wall, Dany wins favor with Drogo and Viserys dies.

Act 3 Eddard is arrested for treason and is killed which spawns the Northern independence War, Jon finds out about the others and they decide to go beyond the Wall, Drogo dies and Dany gets Dragons.

Very simple 3 acts.

You can do that with the second book as well. For Westeros Act 1 is about the preparation for the ensuing war. Act 2 is about Renly dying and Stannis taking the power in the War. Act 3 is Blackwater. For Dany Act 1 is traveling to Qarth, act 2 is getting in Qarth, act 3 is the Undying chapter and leaving. Same for Jon from leaving Castle Black to faking a desertion by killing Halfhand.

Books 4 and 5, even if you don't combine them, don't have a structure like that.

:agree:

[marsyao]

Well what I can say, some people work for HBO or D&D, and others are just glad to be a fan boys and fan girls

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

Well what I can say, some people work for HBO or D&D, and others are just glad to be a fan boys and fan girls

Or just not everyone agrees with your opinion...

[CrypticWeirwood]

You're seeing those names on the page, not hearing an actor speak them. It's much different if you've never seen those two names, and only HEAR them uttered by people with British accents that some people have a hard time understanding.

Which is exactly why people who don’t know English prefer watching the show dubbed into their native language. It’s just easier for them that way.

[boojam]

Well what I can say, some people work for HBO or D&D, and others are just glad to be a fan boys and fan girls

Which fraction of the ~20 million viewers are those?

[Ben H'gahr]

Very sound analysis lancerman

[Ben H'gahr]

Dorne did suck. Elleria by going after Myrcella was actually disrespecting her beloved's memory. He was specifically aiming for the ones who hurt Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys i.e. Tywin, Lorch, and Gregor. It is not Myrcella's fault that Oberyon head got squished like a grape but Elleria still wants to harm her. At least Arriane wanted to use Myrcella to gain power not just start a stupid and pointless war.

Sansa's Winterfell storyline was fucking awful there was nothing good about it especially after last season where it seemed she was coming into her own, This season all the potential growth got squashed and Sansa went back to being a victim. hell she showed more strength in Kingslanding!

Stannis.......man that was just......it was wrong.

Jon's storyline was not satisfying at all either.

Brienne's (and Jaime's to lesser extent)entire story in the books 4-5 helps us to get a grasp of the larger impact the war has had on Westeros besides the affect it has had on the Great Houses. by cutting all of that out this season we got nothing to further expand the world.

also one of the largest things that bugged me this season is that they seemed to forget just how big Westeros is or even it basic geography. There is no going around Moat Caillin unless you are or know the Crannogmen or have a freaking boat and even then you would have a very long trip to Winterfell. People were moving all across Westeros like the had airplanes.

understand that I watched the 1st season before reading the books.

But understand: the Unsullied casual show watchers JUST LOVE THE DRAMA (at least this is what D&D seem to think)! This is why Dorne had to happen like it did.

I totally agree w/you on Stannis and Sansa:

I was one of those people who defended the rape scene. Of course I had no idea what D&D were going to make out of it. I was expecting this to be a character building event for Sansa but no: D&D had this great chance and decided to flush it down the toilet by portraying Sansa as the terrified girl she was in the last four seasons already.

Don't get me even started about Stannis, it gives me a heart attack.

I am aware that making a TV show is difficult and I don't want to appear to be a book purist but the creative decisions D&D have made were just bad: bad dialogues, unnecessary plots like Dorne, ... I don't see this going anywhere.

I also don't think that one can blame this fully on the source material.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Thing is, if GRRM had bothered to write 2 decent books, or hell, even one book with an actual ending instead of that incomplete bloat that was Feast and Dance, then D&D could've stuck to that instead of writing their shitty fanfic tangents.

Like, for instance, as terrible as the whole Sansa in Winterfell thing was (and it was fucking terrible), I can at least understand D&D's rationale. We just couldn't have Sansa doing jackshit at the Vale, so D&D had to come up with something and it was a big turd. But if GRRM had written an actual plot for Sansa in Feast instead of transparent procrastination, then we wouldn't have that problem.

Now, would the book storylines have made for better tv than what we ultimately got? Yes, I mean, look at show!Dorne, and Brienne spent the season looking at a tower. But still, all in all, it would've still been a subpar season because Feast and Dance are subpar, incomplete books