Why do people say it is the books fault season 5 was bad?

[Winter's Cold]

Adapting the books faithfully would mean a season without Dany, Tyrion and Jon. I doubt HBO would like the ratings drop that would ensue.

[marsyao]

Which fraction of the ~20 million viewers are those?

I was referring to those people who say it is the books fault season 5 was bad

[WSmith84]

Thing is, there was plenty of adaptable material in Feast and Dance if you do some trimming and rewriting.

Let's take Sansa in the Vale. Well, I would have given Sansa scenes with Royce and Robin this year. Since it seems the Vale armies are going to the North next season, why not have Sansa be part of the instigation? Have her chat with Royce and reminisce about the good times with her father, asking him for stories about the honourable Ned Stark as a boy. Then she can become wistful and lament that her childhood home is infested with the family that killed her brother and mother. Later, have another scene where she points out how Cersei is weakening the Lannister-Tyrell regime (after Margaery's arrest and the Faith Militant taking control of KL). Have her sweet talk Robin so that he wants to please her and listens to her. At the end of the season, due to LF's and Sansa's manipulation, have the Vale Lords prepared to march North. That would be a high note to end on wouldn't it? A Stark marching home with an army to reclaim Winterfell?

The show certainly can't blame the poor Northern story on its source material, because Theon in Winterfell is some of George's best work. Nor can it blame the source material for Dorne; TV Dorne was a travesty of television.

Jaime's stuff, if you simply take the highlights, was very doable for TV. He could meet Genna, the Blackfish and Edmure. Have it end with him burning Cersei's letter.

TV KL was just an inferior version of the book version. The prophecy should have been cut and Cersei's madness accelerated a bit. And the show could have done with a slightly more nuanced Faith Militant, instead of the star-carving, homo-hating version we got. And whoever wrote the Dornish birthmark as evidence bit needs sacking. The problems in the KL story this year were very much of the show's own making. The story itself is sound.

Arya's Braavos stuff should have started in S4. They enjoyed the Hound-Arya mechanic so much that they let it affect the show's pacing. Personally, I find the Braavos stuff dull in the books, and there's no natural end to it. Perhaps the show, starting the Braavos stuff in S4 could have given us a conclusion to the story this season.

Basically, I disagree that this season's flaws were entirely down to the source material. Some of it can be attributed to that, but a lot of it cannot.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Because season 5 was ass and books 4 and 5 were to most worse than the first 3 easy scapegoat along with dorne and then boom the shows not bad its George's fault and just dorne was a mistake it's fine d&d are awesome.

[ShadowKitteh]

Thing is, there was plenty of adaptable material in Feast and Dance if you do some trimming and rewriting.

Let's take Sansa in the Vale. Well, I would have given Sansa scenes with Royce and Robin this year. Since it seems the Vale armies are going to the North next season, why not have Sansa be part of the instigation? Have her chat with Royce and reminisce about the good times with her father, asking him for stories about the honourable Ned Stark as a boy. Then she can become wistful and lament that her childhood home is infested with the family that killed her brother and mother. Later, have another scene where she points out how Cersei is weakening the Lannister-Tyrell regime (after Margaery's arrest and the Faith Militant taking control of KL). Have her sweet talk Robin so that he wants to please her and listens to her. At the end of the season, due to LF's and Sansa's manipulation, have the Vale Lords prepared to march North. That would be a high note to end on wouldn't it? A Stark marching home with an army to reclaim Winterfell?

The show certainly can't blame the poor Northern story on its source material, because Theon in Winterfell is some of George's best work. Nor can it blame the source material for Dorne; TV Dorne was a travesty of television.

Jaime's stuff, if you simply take the highlights, was very doable for TV. He could meet Genna, the Blackfish and Edmure. Have it end with him burning Cersei's letter.

TV KL was just an inferior version of the book version. The prophecy should have been cut and Cersei's madness accelerated a bit. And the show could have done with a slightly more nuanced Faith Militant, instead of the star-carving, homo-hating version we got. And whoever wrote the Dornish birthmark as evidence bit needs sacking. The problems in the KL story this year were very much of the show's own making. The story itself is sound.

Arya's Braavos stuff should have started in S4. They enjoyed the Hound-Arya mechanic so much that they let it affect the show's pacing. Personally, I find the Braavos stuff dull in the books, and there's no natural end to it. Perhaps the show, starting the Braavos stuff in S4 could have given us a conclusion to the story this season.

Basically, I disagree that this season's flaws were entirely down to the source material. Some of it can be attributed to that, but a lot of it cannot.

1. Unless you're privy to where GRRM is taking this story like D&D are, you have no idea what is expendable and what is not.

2. Sansa stuck in the Vale..... talking... would be deadly boring, and would do nothing to drive the plot forward, wasting an entire season with a character that could be used to move this story forward so that they can end it in the next 20 episodes at a semi-normal pace. Besides, what the hell does she know of the Lannister/Tyrell machinations since she stole out of King's Landing in the middle of Joffrey's wedding?? She was long gone by the time Margaery was married to Tommen, much less arrested. How would she even know this happened, from her subscrption to The Westerosi Times?

3. If they had hurried Arya's story in S4, we'd have had very little left for her to do in S5.

[WSmith84]

1. Unless you're privy to where GRRM is taking this story like D&D are, you have no idea what is expendable and what is not.

2. Sansa stuck in the Vale..... talking... would be deadly boring, and would do nothing to drive the plot forward, wasting an entire season with a character that could be used to move this story forward so that they can end it in the next 20 episodes at a semi-normal pace. Besides, what the hell does she know of the Lannister/Tyrell machinations since she stole out of King's Landing in the middle of Joffrey's wedding?? She was long gone by the time Margaery was married to Tommen, much less arrested. How would she even know this happened, from her subscrption to The Westerosi Times?

3. If they had hurried Arya's story in S4, we'd have had very little left for her to do in S5.

1: Well obviously. But that doesn't mean I can't criticise what they wrote.

2:Anything would have been better than Sansa in Winterfell. Because that was awful. Besides, Sansa would only need a few scenes this year. And I was assuming that word of the Faith Militant and Margaery's arrest would spread some. The Queen being arrested is pretty big news. And I fundamentally disagree with the idea that characters talking is boring. Some of the best scenes in this show are just characters talking. And if the Vale armies reclaim Winterfell from the Boltons next year, I hardly think that Sansa being a major part of that decision doesn't drive the plot forward.

3: Well, they could get to the end of the Braavos stuff. Whatever that end is.

[The Golden Wolf]

1. Unless you're privy to where GRRM is taking this story like D&D are, you have no idea what is expendable and what is not.

2. Sansa stuck in the Vale..... talking... would be deadly boring, and would do nothing to drive the plot forward, wasting an entire season with a character that could be used to move this story forward so that they can end it in the next 20 episodes at a semi-normal pace. Besides, what the hell does she know of the Lannister/Tyrell machinations since she stole out of King's Landing in the middle of Joffrey's wedding?? She was long gone by the time Margaery was married to Tommen, much less arrested. How would she even know this happened, from her subscrption to The Westerosi Times?

3. If they had hurried Arya's story in S4, we'd have had very little left for her to do in S5.

1. Is not a valid excuse as even though they do not know what is expendable there is still a wealth of info and story that can be utilized to help create a more vibrant story arc on tv involving certain characters. people loved Arya and the Hound Traveling around and having adventures but would dread Brienne and Pod doing more? that makes no since.

2. most of this show is just people taking ad telling stories to one another. Sansa should be "warrior" with words, charm, and beauty and seeing her use those traits to accomplish good if written properly would not only set her apart from Cersie but be very entertaining.

3. true.

[Primalsplit]

Why do you think talking is boring? Don't you have any friends to talk to? Are you jealous?

[Toth]

First of all: It is true that Feast and Dance got a lot of flak by the fandom, but I do think it stems partly from the long time Martin took to write them and because they don't have such a thick density of 'twists' like A Storm of Swords has. Storm is my favourite book too. It is a hell of a ride, but many of it's sudden turns needed the buildup of the considerably slower paced first two books. Feast and Dance never intended to be like Storm, they were more like Game and Clash. They take a breath and build up the plot for the next big change of events in Winds. But Game and Clash are by all means no bad books and so are Feast and Dance. They have their own twists and turns, even though Martin's writing considerably evolved and he concentrates now on far more subtle changes. Yes, I dare to say they are more difficult to 'properly' read because they are a bit more character-heavy than the previous ones. But they too have their meme-worthy moments and it is D&Ds fault for completely ignoring all of them and replace them with their bad fanfiction.

And now to all who say talking characters are boring and make for bad TV...

- the Greatjon declaring Robb King of the North was just people talking

- Ned stepping in when Robert wants to kill Dany was just people talking

- Varys' "For the good of the realm" in the dungeons with Ned was just them talking

- several additions of theirs which were lauded as good like Robert/Cersei, Ned/Robert on the King's Road, Arya/Tywin, Dany/Drogo in the House of Undying, Viserys in the bath etc. are all just people talking

- Varys' "Power is a trick, a shadow on the wall" was just people talking

- Arya and Gendry interactions is just the two characters talking

- Jaime telling Brienne about the Wildfire plot in the bathhouse was just the two characters talking

- "Chaos is a laddah", as loathed as it is by many bookreader (not myself, if Littlefingers actions were making sense, it would have been a very fitting line), was just characters talking

- Tyrion chewing out the court at his trial was just him, a character, talking

I can't help all of you people who decide that sex and violence and misery are the only ways to tell a story. You really have to think for yourself if this is actually the only reason you ever liked Game of Thrones. If you keep saying this is even then, don't wonder that bookreaders are calling you out for it, because you missed the point of characterdriven narratives. Let's see what they could have shown us this season if they had sticked to the books:

- "The North Remembers" and Frey Pies

- "Justice. Vengeance. Fire and Blood." when Doran explains his plan to side with Dany.

- Littlefinger poisoning Sweetrobyn and Sansa letting it happen because it is in her interest -> add to it her bewitching Harry the Heir as Alayne Stone and then revealing herself at their wedding that she is indeed Sansa Stark which could be very, very awesome if properly done

- Jaime doing good deeds in the Riverlands and bluffing out Edmyn, all the while insisting on his vow to not take up arms against Starks and Tully's instead of atrocious filler in Dorne

- Lady Motherfucking Stoneheart in Brienne's story

Boring? Really? That's the reason why we got filler and plotholes instead? Most of the season should be considered an insult to the intelligence of every attentive watcher, nothing more. And it is not the fault of the books. There was a lot of great material for TV there, they only chose to ignore it for the sake of shoehorning more 'shocks' into the story.

[Guess who's back]

Storm is my favourite book too. It is a hell of a ride, but many of it's sudden turns needed the buildup of the considerably slower paced first two books. Feast and Dance never intended to be like Storm, they were more like Game and Clash. They take a breath and build up the plot for the next big change of events in Winds. But Game and Clash are by all means no bad books and so are Feast and Dance.

How dare you to put Game and Clash in the same bag as Feast and Dance. Disgraceful. Especially Dance, that didn't build up anything and didn't even lead anywhere. It was a filler that people waited years to come out.

[BalerionTheCat]

I liked books 4 and 5. They are less action and major deaths than the previous books. They are story building and explaining how the world is really working. But D&D didn't use such material from previous books. They are just interested in shocking deaths and rapes. So they are condemned to diverge from the books, because the books are less and less what they want. But HBO wants more seasons. So they invent their own crap.

There are very successful shows, like political fiction, that are only talking. But it is not D&D style. IMHO, D&D were not the best suited to adapt ASoIaF.

[Toth]

How dare you to put Game and Clash in the same bag as Feast and Dance. Disgraceful. Especially Dance, that didn't build up anything and didn't even lead anywhere. It was a filler that people waited years to come out.

What? You say it didn't build up anything, but the main criticism is that they are all build-up and no resolve, resulting in cliffhangers all over the place. So there is build-up. You you can't say they don't lead anywhere when many, many pages are sacrificed to let characters travel to be in different positions where they are needed in Winds. And your last sentence contributes to my hypothesis that people are just angry about having waited for so long, not caring for the high quality writing they got.

Oh well, you might be only trolling and I fell for it...

[Guess who's back]

What? You say it didn't build up anything, but the main criticism is that they are all build-up and no resolve, resulting in cliffhangers all over the place. So there is build-up. You you can't say they don't lead anywhere when many, many pages are sacrificed to let characters travel to be in different positions where they are needed in Winds. And your last sentence contributes to my hypothesis that people are just angry about having waited for so long, not caring for the high quality writing they got.

Oh well, you might be only trolling and I fell for it...

It was just a filler imo. Most of the content could be just skipped with the 5 year gap and then explained through POV thoughts.

Then again I care more about the Westerous and actual game of thrones than everything in Essos.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

I've never understood the 'blame the show on the books' argument. Surely if your saying that Feast and Dance led to what some people feel is a downturn in quality, you are saying the first 3 seasons are down to the excellence of Game, Clash and Storm which surely indicates D&D have little effect on the show? I Think the way the books were split did make them harder to adapt, but things like forgetting Sansa's necklace are mistakes.

Ultimately, D&D are book reader's themselves, and like others the books came to life as their mind created Westeros in their head and they were lucky enough to get a chance to put this on the screen. It will be different from the Westeros I imagined or others because it's their vision. If the found Feast and Dance less engaging than the first 3 it will be reflected on the show. Therefore, saying they've changed the wrong things, as much as I agree isn't really anything but opinion.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

Double Post

[Khorkalba]

Adapting the books faithfully would mean a season without Dany, Tyrion and Jon. I doubt HBO would like the ratings drop that would ensue.

You could use the same sort of argument to try and justify keeping Ned, Robb and Oberyn alive instead of killing them off. They were very popular characters. In fact a lot of people only started watching GoT because Sean Bean was in it. The rest of the cast are effectively nobodies compared to him.

What are the writers going to do if Dany and Tyrion both die long before the story finishes? Are they going to keep them alive fearing a drop in ratings?

[Arrow of the Morning]

A Feast for Crows and Dance of Dragons are not so good as the three first books, but it is no a excuse for the disappointing work D&D did in the Season Five.

The only thing that we can blame the books is about the lack of progression in the plot, something that happens in the books too, but most decisions the show runners did was bad. Dorne had no plot, not even the battle scenes were good. Winterfell jointed three arcs (Boltons, Sansa and Brienne) and I understand why, but it didn't worked at all. Other plots like King's Landing, Meeren, Bravos and the Wall were much better handled, but still having problems.

[Toini]

Well the issue is that, if the book was to be adapted faithfully, we'd have had only half of all major character's storylines (Daenerys, Jon, etc.) for new characters. 99% of audiences would have complained that the series has become too complicated and that the story wouldn't have advanced (because let's be honest, most people, including some book readers, wouldn't see the siege of Riverrun as the plot "advancing").

Then I agree with some of the critics:

-Dorne was bad

-Some minor details were ignored: the unsullied's strength, how X characters did Y action, a bit too many coincidences

However, in the end, D & D's version worked: game of thrones broke a record of viewers for episode 1 and 10, and maintained itself over 7 million viewers for almost all episodes except "The Gift" because of Sansa's rape.

Go and take a look on IMDB. Except for episode 6 which had the "bad" Dorne fight and Sansa's rape, all episodes had above 8 (which is more or less the average for GoT -> 8.5), Hardhome had 9.9 and a number of episodes were above 9. It is still the highest rated show.

[Winter's Cold]

You could use the same sort of argument to try and justify keeping Ned, Robb and Oberyn alive instead of killing them off. They were very popular characters. In fact a lot of people only started watching GoT because Sean Bean was in it. The rest of the cast are effectively nobodies compared to him.

What are the writers going to do if Dany and Tyrion both die long before the story finishes? Are they going to keep them alive fearing a drop in ratings?

The fate of the major characters will be the same for both the show and the books. If Dany and Tyrion die in the books, then they'll die in the show.

[Primalsplit]

I am of the opinion even that aspect of the story might be subject to change later in the series. OH MY GOD NO ONE ISSAFE!