Best method of resurecting Jon (?)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

to summarize (and get back on topic)

 

We really haven't seen a truly successful resurrection in the books yet. We've got lots of undead trooping around, but nothing that really has worked as a true resurrection. MMD and Mel both have connections to Asshai, and they are the ones that emphasize "only death can pay for life". Asshai seems to be a pretty good authority for this.

 

Thoros, however, is a rank amateur who doesn't know what he's doing. Beric is very similar to Coldhands (except for the pooled blood in the extremities). Coldhands seems to be a higher quality version of the normal wights. Qyburn, another amateur, seems have gotten similar results with UnGregor. None from this group used a sacrifice.

 

Jon is on the classic Hero's Journey, which often includes a death/rebirth or Trip to the Underworld as a major transformational event in the Hero's story. Given how many variations we've had so far on resurrections/revivals, we might very well expect Jon's to be a different variant as well. I don't expect a pure copy of a previous event. That would belittle Jon's story. If we are ever going to see a resurrection done right (or as right as one can achieve), it will be Jon's. The story demands it.

 

ETA - spelling

[caravaggio]

So, let me revise my earlier scenario. ..

Stannis' body is taken to the Wall.
Mel places his body, Jon's body, and a live Shireen on a pyre in hopes of resurrecting Stannis.
Jon walks out of the fire.

[caravaggio]

to summarize (and get back on topic)
 
We really haven't seen a truly successful resurrection in the books yet. We've got lots of undead trooping around, but nothing that really has worked as a true resurrection. MMD and Mel both have connections to Asshai, and they are the ones that emphasize "only death can pay for life". Asshai seems to be a pretty good authority for this.
 
Thoros, however, is a rank amateur who doesn't know what he's doing. Beric is very similar to Coldhands (except for the pooled blood in the extremities). Coldhands seems to be a higher quality version of the normal wights. Qyburn, another amateur, seems have gotten similar results with UnGregor. None from this group used a sacrifice.
 
Jon is on the classic Hero's Journey, which often includes a death/rebirth or Trip to the Underworld as a major transformational event in the Hero's story. Given how many variations we've had so far on resurrectins/revivals, we might very well expect Jon's to be a different variant as well. I don't expect a pure copy of a previous event. That would belittle Jon's story. If we are ever going to see a resurrection done right (or as right as one can achieve), it will be Jon's. The story demands it.

I think Beric's was pretty good. It is just that it is done over and over, like a copy of a copy, details begin to get lost.

The difference will be the AA stuff.

Though I am also leery of using the show as a basis for anything in the books, I do think we can take from it that Mel will be involved in raising Jon. I think it will be more complicated in the books and maybe involve more players (Bran). The show probably shaved it down to the barest essentials.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Ibbison,
 
has Mel ever stated that 'only death can pay for life'?

 
 In at least one instance - Selyse attributes it to her in ASoS when they hear of the Red Wedding and want to bring the stone dragon to life by sacrificing Edric Storm. "Lady Melisandre will tell you, my lord. Only death can pay for life." I don't have an e-version so I can't do a real search.
 

, Mirri Maz Duur didn't resurrect Drogo with her blood spell, she restored a dying man's physical health while rendering him into an imbecile. She didn't actually bring somebody back from the dead. Nobody has as of yet done that outside of the fire spell of the red priests, and that one has side effects. I doubt that sacrificing somebody can possible help bringing somebody back from the dead completely unaltered even if some price is paid...

 
Our POV for MMD's work on Drogo was Dany, who was unconscious for a week. Drogo was going to die before the next sunrise, and death was dancing in that tent. I'm pretty sure he died before the procedure was complete. MMD saved Drogo's body, but not his mind. Add in a backup restore from a warged animal, and we've got a fine model for a successful resurrection.Thoros hasn't been successful - he's only getting partial results. And Qyburn is getting similar results, whatever he is doing.
 

And if Mel herself is a changed human being (usually not eating anything, not drinking all that much) - I don't think she has been resurrected with the fire spell but rather was imbued with magical fire during some other ritual while she was still alive resulting in similar effects - and she can have a POV, then there is no reason why a changed/resurrected Jon Snow couldn't also have a POV.

 
I suspect Mel, Thoros, and Moqorro are simply being consumed by their own magic.
 

ETA - grammar

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I think Beric's was pretty good. It is just that it is done over and over, like a copy of a copy, details begin to get lost.

 
But Drogo was better, except for the mind. Drogo would eat. Beric and Coldhands are incredibly similar, and Coldhands isn't really alive. How much you wanna bet Beric didn't breathe, and no one noticed?
 

The difference will be the AA stuff.

Though I am also leery of using the show as a basis for anything in the books, I do think we can take from it that Mel will be involved in raising Jon. I think it will be more complicated in the books and maybe involve more players (Bran). The show probably shaved it down to the barest essentials.

I strongly suspect the Red Priestess is a Red Herring, in both book and show.

[Lord Varys]

Ibbison,

 

come on, you can't say Drogo has died in that tent before the spell was complete. There is no evidence for that. Not to mention that the estimate as to when Drogo was going to die may have been wrong. See, I can do that, too ;-).

 

Thoros isn't doing any spells consciously. He just uses a ritual that actually is a spell, and there has to be reason why this works on some but not on everybody - else we would have an army of fire wights running around in any city where there are many followers of the Red God since it is to be expected that the red priests give every dead person they sent on his/her the kiss of life during the last rites they administer (just as Thoros did with Beric).

 

My take on that is that this type of fire magic goes back to the dragonlords of Valyria who, at the height of the power, searched for ways to cheat death/become immortal. The idea is that the kiss of life can bring back a person with dragonlord blood. After the Doom (or perhaps even prior to that) it was adapted by the red priests who actually could use it to bring some people back to life who weren't dragonlords (say, the descendants of their illegitimate children; various Lyseni, etc.). But after the death of the last dragon the spell lost its potency (gradually) like much of the fire magic did. It only began to work again after Dany brought the dragons back to life (just as the spells of the alchemists began to work much better).

 

The spell worked on Beric because he may have Targaryen blood through one of Rhaena Targaryen's daughters like the Penroses do (Aelinor Penrose was Aerys I's cousin), and it may have worked on Catelyn either because a working fire magic resurrection matrix can be passed on to another body, or because Catelyn has a drop of dragonlord blood, too, through a Tully-Lothston match.

 

Melisandre gives the impression that she is/has been hurt in the past when she remembers the Melony episode. There is a strong fire within in her that certainly sets her apart from any other red priest we have met as until now - especially from Thoros. Moqorro isn't described as being as physically hot as Melisandre, and we didn't get much insight into Benerro yet.

[caravaggio]

But Drogo was better, except for the mind. Drogo would eat. Beric and Coldhands are incredibly similar, and Coldhands isn't really alive. How much you wanna bet Beric didn't breathe, and no one noticed?
 
I strongly suspect the Red Priestess is a Red Herring, in both book and show.

I can buy Mel as a red herring in the books, but in the show I don't think they would have bothered teleporting her to see Beric if that was so.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Ibbison,
 
come on, you can't say Drogo has died in that tent before the spell was complete. There is no evidence for that. Not to mention that the estimate as to when Drogo was going to die may have been wrong. See, I can do that, too ;-).

 
 MMD was one who said "only death can pay for life". MMD made the diagnosis regarding how much time Drogo had left. MMD did the ceremony. She was in a position to control the time factor. And since, in hindsight, it was obvious that her plan was to kill Rhaego, she needed a death to take the life. That's the trade she used her magic to execute, and she needed Drogo to be dead to be able to make the trade. Yeah, I'm very confident MMD waited for Drogo to die while she ran the ceremony.
 

Thoros isn't doing any spells consciously. He just uses a ritual that actually is a spell, and there has to be reason why this works on some but not on everybody - else we would have an army of fire wights running around in any city where there are many followers of the Red God since it is to be expected that the red priests give every dead person they sent on his/her the kiss of life during the last rites they administer (just as Thoros did with Beric).

 

 

Beric is the only person he gives the last kiss to. He had seen it done by red priests "many a time", and had given it himself "a time or two" in the past, but he gives it to no one else that we see. When Kyle is killed when the BwB storm the septry, there is no mention of Thoros giving him the kiss. Thoros' powers have nothing to do with the red god, in all probability. He just has some talent with fire magic, like the fire mage in Qarth.

 

We have no evidence that anyone in the past, in Valyria or anywhere else, could do what Thoros did to Beric. No stories. No legends. No rumors. Nothing. There is no known link between the red priests and Valyria. Your Targ-Dondarrion marriage "theory" is based on your erroneous ideas concerning House Dondarrion that I pointed out earlier. I again encourage you to go reread.

[Lord Varys]

Oh, I checked the thing on House Dondarrion. That doesn't make it impossible that there was Hightower-Dondarrion marriage in the wake of, say, the Dornish Conquest, and that Hightower girl was actually the daughter of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower, right?

 

'Only death can pay for life' could mean that you can kill somebody and resurrect somebody else, but it could also mean you can kill somebody and use the life to restore somebody's health or unnaturally expand his life span. The latter is what I think Mirri Maz Duur has done with Drogo. And Drogo might actually become an imbecile in the process because she used the life force of an unborn infant to accomplish that, sort of overwriting his personality with that of his own unborn son...

 

There is magic in Martinworld that is innate and can only be inherited (skinchanging/greenseeing, dragonbonding) as well as stuff that can be learned (glamors, shadowbinding, taking on new faces the Faceless Men way). Perhaps having another magical talent helps you with mastering other things, but we don't know that yet (say, perhaps their skinchanging abilities helped/will help Bloodraven and Arya to learn glamors and such).

 

My take on the kiss of life is that this is spell adopted into a religious ritual. I cannot prove that yet, but we'll have to wait and see. Thoros could also have an innate and unknown magical ability but we don't know that either. I'd be surprised if that actually was the case since the idea that suddenly his 'prayer' worked because it was actually a spell that can work know and he has no clue about that would be a more interesting story for me. But we'll have to wait and see.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

The way they did with Drogo except swap Dolorous Edd for the horse.

[Sly Wren]

The way they did with Drogo except swap Dolorous Edd for the horse.

Could even be an improvement--still moody, but with a wry sense of humor.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I don't understand this talk that Beric (or LS) were not "a true resurrection". That was the whole point. Beric is for sure definitely dead from what Arya can tell, dude was practically cut in half, hed be dead in seconds. And then, he comes back slightly but not crazily changed, as one might expect for someone who has had some brain damage during the process. There's no question LS was definitely dead, and now she is back, with most of her former memories. How is that not a resurrection.

And I'm not seeing Beric/cold hands as being at all similar. Cold hands is just an empty corpse being puppeted around by bloodraven, or at least that's what I got out of it. No one is warging the resurrected Beric/LS - he still has most of Beric dondarrions memories and free will, as does she.

[Dolorous22]

I think MMD's botched resurrection of Drogo may have been successful if say, Dorogo's spirit was locked inside the horse. Drogo was no warg though, and his spirit had since departed and it was this piece of information that MMD kept from Dany.

I do like the red priest revives Dragon Lord with kiss of life thing though. Breathing fire into the blood of the dragon to revive them makes a lot of sense but I don't understand why it worked on a rotting Cat?   

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I don't understand this talk that Beric (or LS) were not "a true resurrection". That was the whole point. Beric is for sure definitely dead from what Arya can tell, dude was practically cut in half, hed be dead in seconds. And then, he comes back slightly but not crazily changed, as one might expect for someone who has had some brain damage during the process. There's no question LS was definitely dead, and now she is back, with most of her former memories. How is that not a resurrection.

And I'm not seeing Beric/cold hands as being at all similar. Cold hands is just an empty corpse being puppeted around by bloodraven, or at least that's what I got out of it. No one is warging the resurrected Beric/LS - he still has most of Beric dondarrions memories and free will, as does she.

 

Resurrection means returning to life. One of the basic signs of life is metabolism - the chemical processes that use energy to allow an organism to maintain their structure and condition, respond to the environment, etc. Living uses energy, and living organisms have to acquire that energy somehow. If you're alive, ya gotta eat. Even plants eat. They just make their own food first. (Ditto for breathing, excreting, and so on.)

 

If Beric, Coldhands, Robert Strong and any others aren't eating (and not wasting away as they use energy), they're not really alive. That's not Beric, that's UnBeric. He's being sustained magically. Thus, no resurrection. Ditto for UnCat, UnGregor, UnWhoeverColdhandsUsedToBe, perhaps UnPatchface as well. Drogo could still eat, and presumably would have starved to death if he didn't eat enough. Mel, on the other hand, still can eat, but she can also live off of magical energy.

 

BTW, I don't think BR is warging Coldhands. Coldhands speaks of BR as a separate person than himself. Coldhands seems to be a high quality wight working for BR, although he seems to be able to understand the ravens speach. I always assumed that we're actually seeing the personality of whoever Coldhands used to be. He's fully aware of his situation, of course.

 

ETA - spelling

[The Human Abstract]

 

One of the basic signs of life is metabolism - the chemical processes that use energy to allow an organism to maintain their structure and condition, respond to the environment, etc. Living uses energy, and living organisms have to acquire that energy somehow. If you're alive, ya gotta eat. Even plants eat. They just make their own food first. (Ditto for breathing, excreting, and so on.)

 

If Beric, Coldhands, Robert Strong and any others aren't eating (and not wasting away as they use energy), they're not really alive. 

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with your logic.   Though it may be a scientific impossibility, if I could be sustained by magic without having to eat and otherwise was exactly the same, would people not refer to me as alive?  Of course they would.  Don't be silly.  

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Oh, I checked the thing on House Dondarrion. That doesn't make it impossible that there was Hightower-Dondarrion marriage in the wake of, say, the Dornish Conquest, and that Hightower girl was actually the daughter of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower, right?

 
Sure. But the Baelor-Jena marriage made perfect sense whether the Dondarrions had Targ blood or not. It was a bone thrown to the Marcher Lords after all the favors shown to the Dornish, their historical enemy.
 

'Only death can pay for life' could mean that you can kill somebody and resurrect somebody else, but it could also mean you can kill somebody and use the life to restore somebody's health or unnaturally expand his life span. The latter is what I think Mirri Maz Duur has done with Drogo. And Drogo might actually become an imbecile in the process because she used the life force of an unborn infant to accomplish that, sort of overwriting his personality with that of his own unborn son...

 
I see the "only death can pay for life" as a direct trade, a swap between the two entities. If MMD wants Rhaego dead, she has to let Drogo die first, then do the swap. As for Drogo having the mentality of an unborn infant - he really doesn't act that way. He's not crying, seeking his mother, etc. How far along was Dany, do you think?
 

My take on the kiss of life is that this is spell adopted into a religious ritual. I cannot prove that yet, but we'll have to wait and see. Thoros could also have an innate and unknown magical ability but we don't know that either. I'd be surprised if that actually was the case since the idea that suddenly his 'prayer' worked because it was actually a spell that can work know and he has no clue about that would be a more interesting story for me. But we'll have to wait and see.

My vote is for "Thoros has a unique latent ability that just appeared due to the return of magic". If the Last Kiss was really a red priest spell, and it had worked in the past, we would have heard. Hard to hide that.
 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with your logic.   Though it may be a scientific impossibility, if I could be sustained by magic without having to eat and otherwise was exactly the same, would people not refer to me as alive?  Of course they would.  Don't be silly.  

 

Kevan Lannister and most of the KG in King's Landing don't think I'm silly. Robert Strong doesn't eat, pee, or sleep, and they're pretty sure he's not alive.

[The Human Abstract]

 

Kevan Lannister and most of the KG in King's Landing don't think I'm silly. Robert Strong doesn't eat, pee, or sleep, and they're pretty sure he's not alive.

If he was exactly like himself otherwise, would they?  Of course.  

[Lord Varys]

Ibbison,

 

well, I guess George has to stick to Ibbison's definitions if you say so ;-).

 

But what life is doesn't really matter there. If Mel is not *really* human/alive but still a POV Jon Snow could become something similar, too, and still live a happy somewhat changed life - or not, if the author intend to shape him into a weapon against the Others who is destined not to survive the War for the Dawn.

 

The idea that resurrections have to restore life as you defines real world life is also somewhat strange. Perhaps resurrections work only in this 'magically way' because, you know, they are magical, and no one being magically resurrected is going to back to 'normal life'. If you are ever zombified and still yourself and no longer have to use the toilet and/or eat/drink come over and tell me how this works. I'd prefer this state to 'normal life'.

 

The Baelor-Jena as well as the Aerys-Aelinor match is problematic in light of the fact that both (and Maekar-Dyanna, too) were brokered prior to the First Blackfyre Rebellion, and no one apparently dared to challenge the king on those choices despite the fact that they clearly must have been unworthy consorts for Daeron's immediate heirs while Yandel explicitly says that Egg-Betha would have caused uproar among the lords if he had been at the top of the line of the succession (which he wasn't - back in 220 AC he was merely the youngest son of the Prince of Dragonstone).

 

I'm quite aware that there is a political reason as well as a dynastic reason, but my guess is that Daeron II actually had multiple cousins through the female line going back to Rhaena's daughter as well as Baela's children by Alyn to pick brides for his sons in absence of daughters or first cousins. That Daeron II chose two Stormlander girls - Jena Dondarrion and Aelinor Penrose - rather than a Velaryon or a Hightower, or a girl from a more nobler house into which one of Rhaena's daughters married into is quite telling.

 

Thus my best guess as to why Daeron II could get away with marrying his two elder sons to brides from smaller houses without creating a major outcry from the (later) Blackfyre partisans is because they were noble enough due to their Targaryen blood, and the among the natural choice a Targaryen king would pick following the incest policies. They go to somewhat more distant relations is sisters and first cousins or aunts aren't available. TWoIaF tells us that Daeron II had Stormlord friends, and his father tried to drive a wedge between Daeron and them through this whole Dornish war idea at the beginning of his reign. Considering Daeron's early betrothal to Mariah and his subsequent good relations to his Martell in-laws (Baelor was born two years before Aegon IV took the throne) my best guess for Daeron getting close to his Stormlander friends would be that they were fostered at court due to the fact that they were grandnephews of Aegon III and Viserys II, and raised alongside you Prince Daeron during the late years of Aegon III and the subsequent reign of his sons.

I think it is effectively confirmed that this is the case with the Penroses considering that there were two Targaryen-Penrose matches (Elaena-Ronnel; Aerys-Aelinor), and Aelinor is not a descendant of Elaena. The naming pattern of Elaena's daughters is also somewhat telling in that regard - Laena and Jocelyn Penrose could be named after Rhaena Targaryens mother Laena Velaryon and Laena's grandmother Jocelyn Baratheon, suggesting that the Penroses actually descent from the elder Targaryen branch (which Elaena does not).

 

Not sure about such a rigid interpretation of 'only death can pay for life' thing. Dany's dragon eggs weren't completely dead, right? Daenerys felt their warmth, dreamed of the dragons, realized that something was going on. I think we would go too far if we assume that Mirri Maz Duur's life force completely recreated three dragon lives from scratch. That would too great a magical miracle for this series, I'd think. My take on the eggs was always that the magic awakened something that was still there, dormant and weakened, but still reachable through magical means.

 

If the fire resurrection spell was actually an immortality thing the dragonlords invented it may not have been very widely known. We know the Red God was worshiped in Valyria, so they could have picked it up there, and it may have worked occasionally on some people who were distant relations of the dragonlords, in Valyria and the other Free Cities. However, if that spell didn't even survive the Doom and/or if the knowledge that it only worked on people with dragonlord was lost during the Century of Blood there would be no reason to believe anything about that would be known in Westeros. Not to mention that only ignorant laypeople know about that as of yet - Thoros is a very badly educated priest, and attributes the stuff more to his god than to magic, and a maester/scholar actually learned in magic has yet to meet Catelyn and/or learn about what has transpired in the Riverlands. Just because obscure resurrection spells haven't been mentioned in the past doesn't mean they won't be discussed in the future. We have also no clue yet what the hell is written in that 'The Death of the Dragons' book...

[BricksAndSparrows]

GRRM is the king of foreshadowing. A good example is Ygritte telling the story of Bael the Bard hiding in the crypts below Winterfell with his "Flower." This story is conveniently placed RIGHT after we hear of Bran and Rickon's death. And I'm sure you folks can fill in a bunch of others...

 

The reason I am mentioning this is because I believe aDwD's prolgue, where GRRM explains Warg's and the 2nd life. I believe this is for the sake of Jon Snow.

 

I think he will 2nd life in Ghost I don't think we we have him anymore as a human or POV customers. He's too much of a conventional hero. GRRM real heros are the unlikely ones: Little girls, fat cowards, cripples and dwarfs.